agie95 said:

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All consequences for sin is aimed to having people to return to Him or turn to Him for the very first time.

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Agree again.

See Johnny Football- eventually he will change his ways, when he hits rock bottom. See AA process. Step 1- I have a problem! Repent and change your ways, appologize to those you offended (Penance) Note: AA process follows much of the St. Ignatius spritual lessons.

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You want to know how to live? See Jesus

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fwheightsboy said:

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In light of this topic, I find it interesting that, today, according to His Holiness, the Pope, The Vicar of Christ on Earth, priests can now forgive abortion. So the Christian guy wonders if his wife's miscarriage is because of his perceived sin, but the Catholic can have her abortion forgiven, yet condoms are still a sin. You need a chart of what is and is not, to guide you thru this man made nonsense.

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1) Key way to understanding the Catholic church Contraception stance is - Trusting in God.

2) I find the contrast interesting how back in the day (especially when you read the bible)- children were a blessing, and yet today for many we view them as a burden.

3) Up until 1930s all of Christians were against Contraception- thought it was wrong. Catholics and Protestants alike.

4). Pope Paul 6th nails it roughly 48 years ago when he wrote Humanae Vitae and warned of consequences-

• a general lowering of moral standards throughout society
• a rise in infidelity
• a lessening of respect for women by men
• the coercive use of reproductive technologies by governments

Pope 6th Predictions

Funny how you leave out women's rights to autonomy.

What in blue blazes is a right to autonomy??

k2aggie07 said:

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What in blue blazes is a right to autonomy??

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Control of yourself and your body.

So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Are you suggesting that women can't control their reproduction without abortion/abortifacents and contraceptives? That they're slaves to their baser urges? Or is consequence-free sex a right as well?

Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Women are more than capable of controlling reproduction without birth control. I don't see how their autonomy is impacted by the absence of it.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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except that the catholics here like to tell us that family planning is more effective than birth control or contraceptives. so much for the reason to say no!

k2aggie07 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Are you suggesting that women can't control their reproduction without abortion/abortifacents and contraceptives? That they're slaves to their baser urges? Or is consequence-free sex a right as well?

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Sex is a natural human drive, one that a woman has as much right to engage in as a man. And while it can always be pregnancy-free for a man, it cannot for a woman. You're demanding that women completely abstain from all sexual activity, something roughly 50% of priests cannot do, in order to achieve something like parity with men. That's not genuine autonomy. They are not allowed control of their bodies and selves.

RetiredAg said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Women are more than capable of controlling reproduction without birth control. I don't see how their autonomy is impacted by the absence of it.

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How is that? By total abstinence? Is that it? Hardly a rational solution for a species that has evolved alongside of and because of emotional and sexual urges. It seems like there could be a rational middle ground like birth control than full abstinence or nothing.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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Bull***** Women can say no or yes for whatever reason they want. And it gives them control when they are raped or abused. It gives them the opportunity to participate as an equal in a relationship.

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In light of this topic, I find it interesting that, today, according to His Holiness, the Pope, The Vicar of Christ on Earth, priests can now forgive abortion.

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One involved in an abortion could always seek absolution through the Church. All Frankie did was basically streamline the process. booboo's post on the thread discussing this -

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If a woman (or an accomplice) confesses an abortion, an ordinary priest is not allowed to grant absolution, but has to ask the local bishop for permission as a means of emphasizing the evil of such sins. Reserved sins carry automatic excommunication, which means that the person is banned from all Catholic sacraments, including the sacrament of penance (confession).

Church law says that when a woman has an abortion she and all those who aided her, including doctors, nurses and spouses, are automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

However in some countries, including the United States and Great Britain, for quite some time now the bishops of these countries, because of the great number of abortions, have given all priests permission to lift the excommunication immediately. So what the Holy Father has done, is extend this to all priests around the world for the coming year which he has designated as a year of mercy.

In a world that has become rather numb to evil, the Church calls attention to the seriousness of certain extraordinary sins be reserving them for special attention.

Other reserved sins include attacking a priest or bishop, desecrating the Eucharist and
serial murder.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

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. . .Catholic can have her abortion forgiven, yet condoms are still a sin.

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Yes the Catholic Church believes the use of artificial mean of contraception to prevent pregnancy to be a sin. Like all sins a Catholic can seek absolution for this particular sin through the Sacrament of Reconcilation.

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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HUH? I guess a woman simply not wanting to have sex with a man is not a reason huh? Is this Saudi Arabia?

So consequence free sex is a right.

Sad.

You apparently missed the point. Bodily autonomy is a right. If the means to control your reproductive system exists, you have a right to choose to use it.

Right from what? From whom?

Non religious right is basically useless and arbitrary. Sure. You have a legal right, I don't think it should be outlawed.

Rights derived from man as image of God? Nah.

k2aggie07 said:

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Non religious right is basically useless and arbitrary. Sure. You have a legal right, I don't think it should be outlawed.

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Non religious rights are the only useful ones. Supposed theistic rights are not one iota less arbitrary. Legal rights are the only ones with any manner of protection or guarantee.

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Rights derived from man as image of God? Nah.

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Exactly. These are just arbitrary ideas made up in ways perceived to be in agreement with some random theistic belief. But unlike legal rights God has never seen fit to enforce these. Making them truly meaningless in any practical sense.

So yes consequence free sex is a right. If you want your tubes tied its no business of anyone else. The only sad thing is a desire to impose your will on others.

If you deny the concept of a religious right then why on earth would you waste time arguing over a religious precept by arguing in favor of a legal right?

I don't think anyone has said contraceptives should be illegal.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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HUH? I guess a woman simply not wanting to have sex with a man is not a reason huh? Is this Saudi Arabia?

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Not wanting to because of some sense of historical tradition? Ok. Not being pregnant is a much better reason. At least in a society where men are expected to be a father (I acknowledge some communities don't believe this).

Dr. Watson said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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Bull***** Women can say no or yes for whatever reason they want.

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Really? Because Dr. Watson said they can't maintain autonomy without birth control. Oh wait, you are Dr. Watson.

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Not wanting to because of some sense of historical tradition? Ok

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I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying you want to give women a reason to not want to have sex, even though THEY themselves want to. You want to impose your beliefs upon their lives and make it much more risky to have sex so that they will not want to have it?

Because if a woman simply doesn't want to have sex, then she has every right not to. Whatever the reason is. You are saying that since you don't think enough women want to abstain, you want to give them more reason to?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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So you don't have that without birth control? Come on man. You're better than that.

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It's much, much harder for a woman to maintain autonomy without birth control. It has zero impact on a man whether they have birth control or not. The ability to control their reproduction is key to women achieving greater social status. Or are you suggesting 9 months of pregnancy and caring for a child are not significant challenges?

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Lie. Birth control has removed the ONE reason a woman could say no - pregnancy. It gives men MORE power over women.

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Bull***** Women can say no or yes for whatever reason they want.

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Really? Because Dr. Watson said they can't maintain autonomy without birth control. Oh wait, you are Dr. Watson.

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Without access to it and the ability to use it if they so choose. Oh wait, I'm arguing with Martin. That may be too difficult for you to get, but try.

k2aggie07 said:

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Right from what? From whom?

Non religious right is basically useless and arbitrary. Sure. You have a legal right, I don't think it should be outlawed.

Rights derived from man as image of God? Nah.

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That's not the only form of rights that one can arrive at.

k2aggie07 said:

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If you deny the concept of a religious right then why on earth would you waste time arguing over a religious precept by arguing in favor of a legal right?

I don't think anyone has said contraceptives should be illegal.

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Understandings of moral rights and obligations informs legal rights. Moral rights are not solely the province of religion.

k2aggie07 said:

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If you deny the concept of a religious right then why on earth would you waste time arguing over a religious precept by arguing in favor of a legal right?

I don't think anyone has said contraceptives should be illegal.

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Not here, but people do and have said that very thing. It's the problem with committed theism, once people decide they are on god's side they often see less and less reason to allow anything other than "gods" law. We've seen it time and again in this country.

You're mentally-****ing-ill if you think jerking off to porn caused a miscarriage. Wow, some people are stupid.

It's a bit closer to the mark that religion produced the rights you now think of as moral and legal, but whatever.

I just don't understand the logic to suggesting that voluntary adherents to a faith are being denied a right.

Bogeyman of theocracy notwithstanding.

k2aggie07 said:

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It's a bit closer to the mark that religion produced the rights you now think of as moral and legal, but whatever.

I just don't understand the logic to suggesting that voluntary adherents to a faith are being denied a right.

Bogeyman of theocracy notwithstanding.

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Religion defines what it believes are moral rights. It does not produce them.

And you assume religious belief is purely voluntary. It rarely is.

k2aggie07 said:

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What a useless conversation.

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Conversations have the right to autonomy.

Malibu said:

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Would God kill an unborn child to punish a man for watching porn? If your God would do that, your God is evil. If your God is not evil, then the answer is no, God would not do that, and the pastor is mistaken.

For those of you wondering why some of us non-believers have lingering hangups with Christianity, it is encounters with pastors like these that reopen old wounds.

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Ezekiel 18:20

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The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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"Pastors like these" are not teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9), which He has warned of, because it will draw people away from Him as noted above.

As for 'consequences of sin' the miscarriage in OP is very different from the natural consequences of, say, an alcoholic mother giving birth to a child with FAS or a father who is imprisoned for child pornography.

I have worked with both as clients and have grown to have compassion, forgiveness, and empathy for people who have committed some pretty horrible acts against children (which is entirely separate from there being consequences and change)--how much more so is a Heavenly Father willing to forgive sinners and not strike people down?

It's as though people don't even read scriptures any more. They just make up stuff according to their beliefs. Look at the story of the prophet Jonah who was rebuked for his lack of charity for the people of Nineveh. The Assyrians were known for their brutality--torturing and executing war captives--and Jonah felt they did not deserve the Lord's mercy (Jonah 4:1). However, after hearing Jonah's cry for repentance they changed "from the greatest of them even to the least of them." The Assyrians would torture children in front of their parents, yet Heavenly Father saw fit that they should have an opportunity to repent, not punish, but for Jonah to "cry against it," and "preach." Yet, this same God is not going to afford a Christian man, struggling with pornography, the same opportunity without first causing the death of his child?


The Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of joy and hope not pain and eternal damnation.