RockTXAggie said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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Your position on abortion puts you outside of the orthodox position of the Christian faith going back to the 100s. As a self-proclaimed Catholic I think you should consider that.

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I just don't think of my faith as a way to organize society. I live my own life through Catholic principles.

Anyway, again, It simply wouldn't be sustainable (in many ways) to add millions and millions more of unwanted kids to the population every decade. Please tell me how this is sustainable and a net positive for society? You know deep down what happens to kids who have nobody to care for them and love them. They end up being misfits more often than not. Look no further than our inner cities where the kids end up raising the kids and learn to live on the streets. It doesn't end well. And that's just the societal impact. From a financial standpoint, it would be crippling to support that many people.

Do you guys really think of these things? We already have millions of unwanted people in this country and you see the results of this when you look at our prison system.

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This sort of ends justify the means mentality leads you down to all sorts of scary roads. No one would justify killing anyone with a mental or phyiscal handicap as a way to combat overpopulation; the only reason the unborn ever enter into the occasion is because they're viewed as being culturally acceptable to kill in utero.

"Do you guys really think of these things? We already have millions of unwanted jews in this country, and you see the results of this when you look at our economy"
-Adolf Eichmann

Adolf Eichmann came up with a very efficient system of ridding the German population of unwanted; I wonder if he was aghast when he explained his final solution for ridding Germany of the unwanted people; we do the same exact thing with Abortion, just in greater numbers.

nm

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I just don't think of my faith as a way to organize society. I live my own life through Catholic principles.

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But we are supposed to be showing the world an alternate way of organizing society. Our faith absolutely is a way to organize society, but the organization is Kingdom-centered and non-coercive.

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Anyway, again, It simply wouldn't be sustainable (in many ways) to add millions and millions more of unwanted kids to the population every decade. Please tell me how this is sustainable and a net positive for society? You know deep down what happens to kids who have nobody to care for them and love them. They end up being misfits more often than not. Look no further than our inner cities where the kids end up raising the kids and learn to live on the streets. It doesn't end well. And that's just the societal impact. From a financial standpoint, it would be crippling to support that many people.

Do you guys really think of these things? We already have millions of unwanted people in this country and you see the results of this when you look at our prison system.

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That just tells me that we, as Christians, need to step it up and start finding these "unwanted" and show them they are wanted by adopting them. The answer isn't to murder them. Abortion isn't the solution. As Christians, we can't kill and justify it by claiming things would be worse if we didn't. If we have millions of "unwanted", then we need to show them they are wanted. We don't do that by killing them.

k2aggie07 said:

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nm

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Was this about Godwin's law?

AstroAg17 said:

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Here's what I don't understand about your view. As a catholic, you think abortion is equivalent to murder, correct? How does anything you wrote make sense in that light?

You're not willing to stop others from mudering because you don't want to impose your views? You think it's better to murder kids than to let them grow up to be miscreants?

I just don't get how you can view it as anything other than an all-or-nothing moral proposition.

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I personally think it's murder, but not in the sense of me or you killing another live human being.

But that's my point in all of this...who are you or me to say what abortion is to many other people who don't view it as murder. Abortion isn't a universally accepted wrong like murder in the context of our judicial system. It's pretty accepted universally that if any one of us walked up to someone and killed them that that is wrong. Abortion isn't like that. Some people view it as murder while others view it as a jumble of cells. Who is right? I feel I'm right while many many others feel they are right.

It's more of a philosophical question in my mind...

Is it right to take a kid out of the womb and place them in a housing facility where nobody really cares about them that much and they live a life of utter poverty? Just so a certain (often religious) segments of society can feel good about themselves? I don't think that is right.

Ironically, that same sect of society will more than likely be the first to ***** about their tax dollars going into prison systems and "free loaders" when most of those kids who never had a chance in the first place end up leaching off the government for most of their lives.

Anyway, Would YOU want to live that life? Erase all the warm fuzzies you have about your life up until this point and replace that with a life of neglect and indifference. No awesome Christmas memories. No family vacations. None of that ***** You live in a home full of unwanted kids.

Do you understand how much money it would cost taxpayers to fund a system that takes care of these kids? Furthermore, do you know how much money it would cost to actually raise these kids with the attention they need and deserve? To hire the staff needed to give these kids the attention where the caretaker isn't outnumbered 10 to 1, 15 to 1, 20 to 1, 50 to 1?

It simply isn't sustainable.

AstroAg17 said:

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That's the only definition of murder that I know of. Can you describe how you see it more, if you don't put it on par with killing an adult?

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Again, who cares what you or I think it is? Many many people out there don't view it as murder.

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Is it right to take a kid out of the womb and place them in a housing facility where nobody really cares about them that much and they live a life of utter poverty? Just so a certain (often religious) segments of society can feel good about themselves? I don't think that is right.

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It has nothing to do with feeling good about ourselves. What's better? Being born into rough circumstances but having a lifetime to work your way out of those circumstances and possibly break the cycle with your own children, or someone determining for you that you don't even deserve such an opportunity?

Now, I don't think the answer is to pass a law, just as the answer isn't to turn our head to the evil of abortion.

RockTXAggie said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Here's what I don't understand about your view. As a catholic, you think abortion is equivalent to murder, correct? How does anything you wrote make sense in that light?

You're not willing to stop others from mudering because you don't want to impose your views? You think it's better to murder kids than to let them grow up to be miscreants?

I just don't get how you can view it as anything other than an all-or-nothing moral proposition.

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I personally think it's murder, but not in the sense of me or you killing another live human being.

But that's my point in all of this...who are you or me to say what abortion is to many other people who don't view it as murder. Abortion isn't a universally accepted wrong like murder in the context of our judicial system. It's pretty accepted universally that if any one of us walked up to someone and killed them that that is wrong. Abortion isn't like that. Some people view it as murder while others view it as a jumble of cells. Who is right? I feel I'm right while many many others feel they are right.

This is better off in the cannibalism thread. Who's to say if it's not just as ethical as KFC? Some people think that eating your enemies is a perfectly good war strategy. No problem. Who are you to say?

It's more of a philosophical question in my mind...
Then you don't really believe it is murder, but just icky...which explains why you are lackadaisical on the subject. It's easier to be that way anyway


Is it right to take a kid out of the womb and place them in a housing facility where nobody really cares about them that much and they live a life of utter poverty? Just so a certain (often religious) segments of society can feel good about themselves? I don't think that is right.

This isn't about self congratulating, this is about being a society that doesn't prey on the weak out of convenience

Ironically, that same sect of society will more than likely be the first to ***** about their tax dollars going into prison systems and "free loaders" when most of those kids who never had a chance in the first place end up leaching off the government for most of their lives.

This is false. Even if it were true, those people are more altruistic than the left. What they get mad about is that the money gets taken from them at the point of a gun.

Anyway, Would YOU want to live that life? Erase all the warm fuzzies you have about your life up until this point and replace that with a life of neglect and indifference. No awesome Christmas memories. No family vacations. None of that ***** You live in a home full of unwanted kids.

Do you understand how much money it would cost taxpayers to fund a system that takes care of these kids? Furthermore, do you know how much money it would cost to actually raise these kids with the attention they need and deserve? To hire the staff needed to give these kids the attention where the caretaker isn't outnumbered 10 to 1, 15 to 1, 20 to 1, 50 to 1?

It simply isn't sustainable.

You are wrong in several ways here. This is just a popular way for people to excuse genocide so that they can feel better about themselves and their inaction. Also, ask any of those foster kids if they'd rather be dead.

Here, ask Starla if she'd rather have not been given a chance at all.


This bright and outgoing youth is witty, funny, and very insightful, especially when it comes to what she wants for her future. Starla is known for being friendly and wanting to help others have a good attitude about life. She wants to help "pick others up" when they are feeling down. She has a positive spin on life and feels she has so much to offer. Starla is good at taking the time to think things through before making decisions and accepts responsibility for poor decisions. She loves to laugh and is almost always in a happy mood. She enjoys listening to music and spending time with friends. She enjoys attending church with others and being involved in various church related activities. A few of her hobbies are electronics, reading, and fixing small objects. She like all kinds of foods and loves to share a meal with others around the table. She is fond of the theatre arts and participates on the yearbook staff at her high school. She is very savvy with social media and when asked what makes her laugh she said, "Just about everything". Though Starla has been through hard times she is an overcomer and is gratefully looking forward to starting a new family tree with her new forever family.

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Are you equating abstaining with infanticide?

And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten.
The Didache (c. 50-120 AD)

And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it.
Athenagoras' Plea for the Christians (c. 180 AD)

They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring [lit. "cast away fetuses"].
Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (c. 130-190 AD)

The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed...Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses.
St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) First Canonical Letter (Letter 188)

I'm saying that it is bigoted against the poor to say "These people would be better off murdered than left alive"

RockTX personally thinks it is murder, but its defensible, because according to him, those babies being killed by abortion would otherwise be poor.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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RockTX personally thinks it is murder, but its defensible, because according to him, those babies being killed by abortion would otherwise be poor.

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Here's the deal...

I feel it is murder. HOWEVER, who am I to determine what a living life form is to someone else? Even though I see it one way, I can still see the argument for the other side. Therein lies the entire problem. What is a living being? Nobody, even pro lifers, can agree on that. THAT is why I view it differently from a normal murder in the context of our judicial system.

And yes, you're damn right those kids would be poor, just like those stuck in foster homes now. And not just poor, also being neglected and at a much higher risk for mental issues and deviant behaviors. Now, take the number in foster homes now and magnify it by many factors. THAT is what would happen if you banned abortion.


Nobody has yet to give me a solution for how we take care of the kids if we did end abortion. Afterall, this is ABOUT THE KIDS.

How do we care for those kids and give them the attention they NEED and DESERVE?

-Either we adopt them all which isn't possible. We don't have enough families in this country with the means of adopting millions of kids (which is what it would amount to when you factor in kids aged 0-17).

-We tax the ever living crap out of taxpayers to help foot the bill for these massive housing facilities and the staff needed to take care of these kids "adequately".


The societal impact of having millions more kids being raised in poor environments would have a scary effect on America years down the road.

Anyway, say abortion did end, what are you guys going to do to actually help the kids when they are brought into this world?

RockTXAggie said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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RockTX personally thinks it is murder, but its defensible, because according to him, those babies being killed by abortion would otherwise be poor.

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Here's the deal...

I feel it is murder. HOWEVER, who am I to determine what a living life form is to someone else? Even though I see it one way, I can still see the argument for the other side. Therein lies the entire problem. What is a living being? Nobody, even pro lifers, can agree on that. THAT is why I view it differently from a normal murder in the context of our judicial system.

And yes, you're damn right those kids would be poor, just like those stuck in foster homes now. And not just poor, also being neglected and at a much higher risk for mental issues and deviant behaviors. Now, take the number in foster homes now and magnify it by many factors. THAT is what would happen if you banned abortion.


Nobody has yet to give me a solution for how we take care of the kids if we did end abortion. Afterall, this is ABOUT THE KIDS.

How do we care for those kids and give them the attention they NEED and DESERVE?

-Either we adopt them all which isn't possible. We don't have enough families in this country with the means of adopting millions of kids (which is what it would amount to when you factor in kids aged 0-17).

-We tax the ever living crap out of taxpayers to help foot the bill for these massive housing facilities and the staff needed to take care of these kids "adequately".


The societal impact of having millions more kids being raised in poor environments would have a scary effect on America years down the road.

Anyway, say abortion did end, what are you guys going to do to actually help the kids when they are brought into this world?

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Nothing in your rationalization is remotely compatible with Christian teaching. We can't just kill people because you believe they will be a burden on society. We can't just kill people because you believe they are unloved and unwanted. You are making assumptions about their possible future lives, and based on those assumptions you are choosing to kill them. Your argument is that they may end up poor and neglected, so your solution is to kill them? Sorry, but that's sick.

AstroAg17 said:

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So you are willing to allow thousands of murders on two conditions:

1. The people killing don't think they're committing murder.
2. The kids would probably turn out bad anyways.

Do I have that right?

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Again, who am I (or you for that matter) to say it is outright murder? It is not as cut and dry as if you or me were to kill a live human walking around on the earth. You cannot deny that the two are very different when so many people, even you and I as pro-lifers, probably have a different definition of what a life is in the womb. I don't think women who have had an abortion who don't view it as murder as bad people. Not even close. They just have a different view on what life is and I can accept their point of view. It isn't MY decision.

And as for the kids, again, you guys want them all to have life but will be nowhere to be found when they actually have to live the life put before them. While you and I are all making these wonderful memories with our own families and living the American dream, many are living a life of neglect that is devoid of true love. That's not so say you don't care because you certainly do. We just only have so much money and time to devote to such a cause.

Are we doing them a favor or a disservice? Personally, I wouldn't want to live that life. Given my thrill-seeking personality, I probably would have been a delinquent had I not been raised in a great family. Maybe you wouldn't mind and have thrived. And that's probably where we differ on this. Sure, there would be quite a few that would go on to do great things in life, but statistics say many would go the other direction. And even if they don't turn out to be bad apples, they still suffer emotional damage and lack greatly behind in their developmental stages of life.

Let me be clear, in a perfect world I wish there wouldn't be such a thing. You view all unborn babies deserve the right to live their own life and whatever the consequences so be it. I look at things from not only the societal impact, but also as a quality of life for the kid.

Honestly, I don't view your point of view as wrong and I see what you're getting at. I'm just going on what my experience has been dealing with kids from these backgrounds.

RockTXAggie said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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RockTX personally thinks it is murder, but its defensible, because according to him, those babies being killed by abortion would otherwise be poor.

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Here's the deal...

I feel it is murder. HOWEVER, who am I to determine what a living life form is to someone else? Even though I see it one way, I can still see the argument for the other side. Therein lies the entire problem. What is a living being? Nobody, even pro lifers, can agree on that. THAT is why I view it differently from a normal murder in the context of our judicial system.

And yes, you're damn right those kids would be poor, just like those stuck in foster homes now. And not just poor, also being neglected and at a much higher risk for mental issues and deviant behaviors. Now, take the number in foster homes now and magnify it by many factors. THAT is what would happen if you banned abortion.


Nobody has yet to give me a solution for how we take care of the kids if we did end abortion. Afterall, this is ABOUT THE KIDS.

How do we care for those kids and give them the attention they NEED and DESERVE?

-Either we adopt them all which isn't possible. We don't have enough families in this country with the means of adopting millions of kids (which is what it would amount to when you factor in kids aged 0-17).

-We tax the ever living crap out of taxpayers to help foot the bill for these massive housing facilities and the staff needed to take care of these kids "adequately".


The societal impact of having millions more kids being raised in poor environments would have a scary effect on America years down the road.

Anyway, say abortion did end, what are you guys going to do to actually help the kids when they are brought into this world?

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Pro-lifers are all pretty much lock-step on no abortion after conception; at least we fellow Catholics are. What your argument seems to be is that until we can figure out what to do with all of the excess children; the only rational decision we can make, is to allow them to be killed. It's ridiculous; absolutely ridiculous.

More needs to be done to address the issues which lead to unwanted children, steps have been put into place to create Safe Haven locations where children up to a certain age can be left without punishment for the parents. The Catholic Church has Project Rachel and the Gabriel Project which help women thinking of abortion and provide resources to pay for their medical coverage to take the pregnancy to term, and trying to line up adoption parents for the child after it's been born.

I agree with you, Pro-Life doesn't stop at birth, many of us Pro-Lifers donate to the cause, and are actively trying to adopt more children as well. Perhaps we should focus on improving the state of foster facilities as well; all these are good ideas. However, what is worrisome and down right scary is that your answer seems to be "until we do that, we have to just kill them".

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Pro-lifers are all pretty much lock-step on no abortion after conception; at least we fellow Catholics are. What your argument seems to be is that until we can figure out what to do with all of the excess children; the only rational decision we can make, is to allow them to be killed. It's ridiculous; absolutely ridiculous.

More needs to be done to address the issues which lead to unwanted children, steps have been put into place to create Safe Haven locations where children up to a certain age can be left without punishment for the parents. The Catholic Church has Project Rachel and the Gabriel Project which help women thinking of abortion and provide resources to pay for their medical coverage to take the pregnancy to term, and trying to line up adoption parents for the child after it's been born.

I agree with you, Pro-Life doesn't stop at birth, many of us Pro-Lifers donate to the cause, and are actively trying to adopt more children as well. Perhaps we should focus on improving the state of foster facilities as well; all these are good ideas. However, what is worrisome and down right scary is that your answer seems to be "until we do that, we have to just kill them".

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So you are content with holding a view that, as a professed Christian, is absolutely opposed to your faith? It's not that you don't support a prohibition on abortion. I'm a voluntaryist and don't believe a law is the answer. It's that your justification is that they are "unloved", "poor", or "unwanted". That's simply vile, especially from a Christian perspective.

RetiredAg said:

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So you are content with holding a view that, as a professed Christian, is absolutely opposed to your faith? It's not that you don't support a prohibition on abortion. I'm a voluntaryist and don't believe a law is the answer. It's that your justification is that they are "unloved", "poor", or "unwanted". That's simply vile, especially from a Christian perspective.

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Don't call my opinion vile when I'm arguing from the standpoint of quality of life.

AstroAg17 said:

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I'm not a pro-lifer, I think abortion should be legal. I just don't think your position makes sense. If you think something is murder, you shouldn't be okay with it. That seems almost tautological.

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Ok, I think I'm getting at what you're confused at. Personally, in my life, I am pro-life. That is my decision and mine alone. In society, I am pro-choice, because I feel wrong telling other people what to believe on an issue that isn't universally understood.

RockTXAggie said:

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RetiredAg said:

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So you are content with holding a view that, as a professed Christian, is absolutely opposed to your faith? It's not that you don't support a prohibition on abortion. I'm a voluntaryist and don't believe a law is the answer. It's that your justification is that they are "unloved", "poor", or "unwanted". That's simply vile, especially from a Christian perspective.

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Don't call my opinion vile when I'm arguing from the standpoint of quality of life.

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Your position is that it's better they are dead than be unloved, unwanted or poor. Yeah, that's absolutely vile and entirely irreconcilable with Christian teaching. You think killing them is a preferable option so they don't burden society. Yeah, that's absolutely vile.

RockTXAggie said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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I'm not a pro-lifer, I think abortion should be legal. I just don't think your position makes sense. If you think something is murder, you shouldn't be okay with it. That seems almost tautological.

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Ok, I think I'm getting at what you're confused at. Personally, in my life, I am pro-life. That is my decision and mine alone. In society, I am pro-choice, because I feel wrong telling other people what to believe on an issue that isn't universally understood.

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Your rationalizations scream that you are pro-choice, even as an individual. You claim to believe it's murder, but you are rationalizing by saying it's okay because they may have to grow up poor, unwanted or unloved.

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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RetiredAg said:

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So you are content with holding a view that, as a professed Christian, is absolutely opposed to your faith? It's not that you don't support a prohibition on abortion. I'm a voluntaryist and don't believe a law is the answer. It's that your justification is that they are "unloved", "poor", or "unwanted". That's simply vile, especially from a Christian perspective.

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Don't call my opinion vile when I'm arguing from the standpoint of quality of life.

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What you're saying is that you'd rather someone be dead than risk them suffering a higher risk of what you would deem a sub-par existence. Yes, that's vile.

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It's not vile to care for the quality of life of a human being. You may not agree with it, but it isn't wrong or vile to take that into consideration.

RockTXAggie said:

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RetiredAg said:

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So you are content with holding a view that, as a professed Christian, is absolutely opposed to your faith? It's not that you don't support a prohibition on abortion. I'm a voluntaryist and don't believe a law is the answer. It's that your justification is that they are "unloved", "poor", or "unwanted". That's simply vile, especially from a Christian perspective.

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Don't call my opinion vile when I'm arguing from the standpoint of quality of life.

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You think the poor would be better off dead. I think that is vile. Who are you to judge me for thinking that your view is vile while justifying someone else's view of abortion cause like that's just their opinion, man.