Ol_Ag_02 said:

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RAB91 said:

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By the way, he didn't say who you had to vote for (which is why I believe there is no violation of their status).

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You guys keep saying that you believe it's not violation haven't even bothered to read what is a isn't an issue. You're just instinctively goal tending. He most certainly said there was one party and one candidate you could not vote for (e.g. in opposition to).

Read the regs.

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.

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Throw the book at them counselor. Id rather goaltend for Christs church on Earth. than HRC and the IRS, pretty popular bedfellows there.

Or the RCC could just follow the law, pay their taxes, and then play politics full time. Imagine the changes they could have on abortion and euthanasia, by directly, and vocally, demanding adherents vote against democrats or face excommunication.

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Catholic here, and I don't vote based on my Catholic beliefs. I vote based on my American values. Quite frankly, I don't care if gays marry, women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life. I'm more concerned about issues like the second amendment.

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I think you meant "ive been in a Catholic Church before"

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My Catholic faith leads MY life, but I don't push my beliefs on others. If you want to marry someone of the same sex, go for it. It has no bearing on my life. If you want to kill your unborn kids, go for it. It has no bearing on my life.

Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

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The government absolutely has the right to punish citizens for committing murder against a living person, because it is necessary in keeping an orderly society.

Obviously we're toeing a gray line here with regards to abortion, but I view it as a different matter than outright murder of a living person.

From a societal standpoint, how do we support hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids each year? So while I disagree with abortion from a moral standpoint, I see almost a need for it from a societal standpoint.

It is my hope that one day we could sterilize people in middle school and reverse it only when they prove they can financially support a child. Not only that, more importantly, WANT a child.

RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

---

The government absolutely has the right to punish citizens for committing murder against a living person, because it is necessary in keeping an orderly society.

Obviously we're toeing a gray line here with regards to abortion, but I view it as a different matter than outright murder of a living person.

From a societal standpoint, how do we support hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids each year? So while I disagree with abortion from a moral standpoint, I see almost a need for it from a societal standpoint.

It is my hope that one day we could sterilize people in middle school and reverse it only when they prove they can financially support a child. Not only that, more importantly, WANT a child.

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But can you not then understand, however, why someone who does not believe it is a "gray line" would continue to fight for the rights of the unborn? It's not just some "religious belief".

There are people against abortion from every major religion and also from no religion; including many atheists. The argument of "who am I to tell someone what to believe" falls short when you consider that in an abortion, someone always dies.

The discussion then inevitably moves to "at what point is the child/zygote/fetus/whatever-you-want-to-call-it worthy of legal protection from its own mother or her Dr.?" Conception? First Cell Division? Implantation? Heartbeat? Detectable brain waves? 20 weeks? Viability? Partially delivered? Fully-delivered-but-cord-not-cut-yet? First breath? Believe it or not, there are some who argue that the point is even past that first breath. The vast majority of Americans believe that the child should be protected at least by viability. Unfortunately they are not. Abortion is legal in every state in the Union up to birth. People will point to laws stating otherwise, but every one of those laws has an exception for the "health of the mother". This "health of the mother" exception includes mental health. There is not a lot of oversight on the use of this exception. While admittedly uncommon, there are still over a thousand "late-term" abortions in the United States every year.

RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

---

The government absolutely has the right to punish citizens for committing murder against a living person, because it is necessary in keeping an orderly society.

Obviously we're toeing a gray line here with regards to abortion, but I view it as a different matter than outright murder of a living person.

From a societal standpoint, how do we support hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids each year? So while I disagree with abortion from a moral standpoint, I see almost a need for it from a societal standpoint.

It is my hope that one day we could sterilize people in middle school and reverse it only when they prove they can financially support a child. Not only that, more importantly, WANT a child.

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Good think Christ was born from a womb 2000 years ago, and not in 2016! But hey, what do you care about all those leeches.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

---

I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

---

The government absolutely has the right to punish citizens for committing murder against a living person, because it is necessary in keeping an orderly society.

Obviously we're toeing a gray line here with regards to abortion, but I view it as a different matter than outright murder of a living person.

From a societal standpoint, how do we support hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids each year? So while I disagree with abortion from a moral standpoint, I see almost a need for it from a societal standpoint.

It is my hope that one day we could sterilize people in middle school and reverse it only when they prove they can financially support a child. Not only that, more importantly, WANT a child.

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But can you not then understand, however, why someone who does not believe it is a "gray line" would continue to fight for the rights of the unborn? It's not just some "religious belief".

There are people against abortion from every major religion and also from no religion; including many atheists. The argument of "who am I to tell someone what to believe" falls short when you consider that in an abortion, someone always dies.

The discussion then inevitably moves to "at what point is the child/zygote/fetus/whatever-you-want-to-call-it worthy of legal protection from its own mother or her Dr.?" Conception? First Cell Division? Implantation? Heartbeat? Detectable brain waves? 20 weeks? Viability? Partially delivered? Fully-delivered-but-cord-not-cut-yet? First breath? Believe it or not, there are some who argue that the point is even past that first breath. The vast majority of Americans believe that the child should be protected at least by viability. Unfortunately they are not. Abortion is legal in every state in the Union up to birth. People will point to laws stating otherwise, but every one of those laws has an exception for the "health of the mother". This "health of the mother" exception includes mental health. There is not a lot of oversight on the use of this exception. While admittedly uncommon, there are still over a thousand "late-term" abortions in the United States every year.

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We all have our beliefs and reasons for them on every issue under the sun. Abortion is probably THE toughest issue we face from the standpoint that nobody can agree on anything.

kayakag said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Quote:

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Quite frankly, I don't care if...women abort their kids, whatever. It has no affect on my life.

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I don't get this at all. I know you personally may not feel affected if someone gets an abortion. But I don't see, if you are Catholic, how you can think it isn't important.

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I don't agree with abortion, but who am I to tell someone they can't get one simply because my religious beliefs disagree with it?

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Because someone always dies in an abortion.

Do you think the government has a right to tell people not to kill someone? My religious beliefs are against that too. I'm sure there are people who don't have a religious belief against killing someone. Does the government have a responsibility to try to prevent them from killing someone; and punishing them if they do?

---

The government absolutely has the right to punish citizens for committing murder against a living person, because it is necessary in keeping an orderly society.

Obviously we're toeing a gray line here with regards to abortion, but I view it as a different matter than outright murder of a living person.

From a societal standpoint, how do we support hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids each year? So while I disagree with abortion from a moral standpoint, I see almost a need for it from a societal standpoint.

It is my hope that one day we could sterilize people in middle school and reverse it only when they prove they can financially support a child. Not only that, more importantly, WANT a child.

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Good think Christ was born from a womb 2000 years ago, and not in 2016! But hey, what do you care about all those leeches.

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It's not about being leeches. It's about supporting these kids to help them lead good lives. The vehement pro-lifers out there care so much about the babies life, but seem to forget that the kid has nobody to care for it when it's actually born.

Let's just say for argument's sake that you banned abortion. So now we have hundreds of thousands of kids being born each year that otherwise wouldn't have been born. How do we provide not only the funds to do so, but more importantly, the care and nurture a kid needs?

You'd have foster shelters on every corner where most of them would get neglected simply because there aren't enough people to give them care.

To me, that's a much scarier picture than abortion. You think I'm exaggerating but I'm not. You'd have buildings full of kids basically taking care of themselves with no parental supervision and nobody to really love them.

RockTXAggie said:

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kayakag said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Let's just say for argument's sake that you banned abortion. So now we have hundreds of thousands of kids being born each year that otherwise wouldn't have been born. How do we provide not only the funds to do so, but more importantly, the care and nurture a kid needs? You'd have foster shelters on every corner where most of them would get neglected simply because there aren't enough people to give them care. To me, that's a much scarier picture than abortion. You think I'm exaggerating but I'm not. You'd have buildings full of kids basically taking care of themselves with no parental supervision and nobody to really love them.

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I do not believe that if abortion were outlawed that the birth rate would increase to include all of the current abortion numbers.

For one thing; many abortions are multiples. That is, a woman is getting a second, third, or more abortion. In some cases these are within a year or two. That second abortion within a year most likely would not have happened if the first child had been born; especially if she was nursed for a year.

Secondly, people will change their behavior. There are a significant number of women who use abortion as birth control; or at least as a backup method of birth control. If they knew that abortion was not going to be available, they would pay closer attention to prevention - to include the possibility of abstaining from sex. This will also affect men's behavior.

So yes, there would be more births, especially at first. I don't see that as a problem. Promote adoption. If Planned Parenthood would actually live up to its name and use their resources to help people become parents by supporting adoption; rather than focusing on preventing parenthood; we could easily support the increased birth rate.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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kayakag said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Dad-O-Lot said:

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RockTXAggie said:

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Drum5343 said:

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Let's just say for argument's sake that you banned abortion. So now we have hundreds of thousands of kids being born each year that otherwise wouldn't have been born. How do we provide not only the funds to do so, but more importantly, the care and nurture a kid needs? You'd have foster shelters on every corner where most of them would get neglected simply because there aren't enough people to give them care. To me, that's a much scarier picture than abortion. You think I'm exaggerating but I'm not. You'd have buildings full of kids basically taking care of themselves with no parental supervision and nobody to really love them.

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I do not believe that if abortion were outlawed that the birth rate would increase to include all of the current abortion numbers.

For one thing; many abortions are multiples. That is, a woman is getting a second, third, or more abortion. In some cases these are within a year or two. That second abortion within a year most likely would not have happened if the first child had been born; especially if she was nursed for a year.

Secondly, people will change their behavior. There are a significant number of women who use abortion as birth control; or at least as a backup method of birth control. If they knew that abortion was not going to be available, they would pay closer attention to prevention - to include the possibility of abstaining from sex. This will also affect men's behavior.

So yes, there would be more births, especially at first. I don't see that as a problem. Promote adoption. If Planned Parenthood would actually live up to its name and use their resources to help people become parents by supporting adoption; rather than focusing on preventing parenthood; we could easily support the increased birth rate.

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I respect your positive attitude. I wish I could share a more positive worldview.

I'm sure some would change their behaviors, but I doubt most will. Careless people who would do such a thing as have multiple abortions and/or treat it as a form of birth control just make bad decisions all the time. They wouldn't change a darn thing. As for abstinence, I think we all know that will never be realistic thing. Human beings are driven by hormones and instinct. Sex is natural and thinking many people will choose to abstain from having it is wishful thinking IMO. Besides, abortion would still be available and would still occur. Now it would just be unsanitary and performed in back alley offices by sketchy doctors.

And there simply isn't enough people to adopt. This has always been a problem. So again, we're dealing with the problem of having a bunch of unwanted kids raised by the system where their chances of actually doing something positive with their life is very low.

There are an absolute ton of families wanting to adopt. If theyd make it less of a costly ordeal many more families would like to adopt. If you know of any people pondering abortion, my family and I would love to give their unwanted child a home.

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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There are an absolute ton of families wanting to adopt. If theyd make it less of a costly ordeal many more families would like to adopt. If you know of any people pondering abortion, my family and I would love to give their unwanted child a home.

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Good on you!! One thing I've never understood is why adoption is so expensive. Its disappointing to think that there's even one family who wants to adopt but can't afford it.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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There are an absolute ton of families wanting to adopt. If theyd make it less of a costly ordeal many more families would like to adopt. If you know of any people pondering abortion, my family and I would love to give their unwanted child a home.

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Good on you!! One thing I've never understood is why adoption is so expensive. Its disappointing to think that there's even one family who wants to adopt but can't afford it.

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It's costly enough to drive many families to seek kids from overseas. I know of several families that have gone this route. I know several others that have worked with the foster care system, and adopted older children through this route.

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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There are an absolute ton of families wanting to adopt. If theyd make it less of a costly ordeal many more families would like to adopt. If you know of any people pondering abortion, my family and I would love to give their unwanted child a home.

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No doubt many would like to adopt, but not near enough if you eliminated abortion. There aren't hundreds of thousands of families looking to adopt every year.

XUSCR said:

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IMHO stating that one candidate's views are starkly in contrast to the teachings of the church in which he is an authority figure does not violate that 501(c) provision.

He didn't say Catholics can't vote for a candidate. He said if a Catholic votes for a pro-abortion candidate they are putting their eternal soul in serious peril, especially if they receive communion.

They are free to vote for whoever they choose, but they should understand how how their vote should be viewed in light of the religion they profess to follow.

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Oh well golly G that makes it OK!

There are lots of organizations that break the rules regarding political speech and they should all be held accountable. I don't think you can take away the entire Catholic Church's tax exempt status because of this one guy but the church should reprimand him and keep him in line and we certainly shouldn't see people cheering on this type of behavior

Quote:

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Then you believe that there should be no tax on anything. Under this, there should be no individual taxes because it's the power to punish those who exercise their first amendment rights of free speech.

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I approve of this.

Quote:

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He didn't say Catholics can't vote for a candidate. He said if a Catholic votes for a pro-abortion candidate they are putting their eternal soul in serious peril, especially if they receive communion.

They are free to vote for whoever they choose, but they should understand how how their vote should be viewed in light of the religion they profess to follow.

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I agree, but what irritates me is how we limit this solely to abortion. Would voting for a candidate that openly advocates murdering the families of those we deem "terrorists" not be just as offensive to our faith?

diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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First the power to tax is the power to punish. By keeping all religious institutions tax exempt, as they have always been, they are free to excercise their faith. By removing this status, the government can now pick winners and losers based on the preference of those in power. It leads to corruption (IRS targeting) of the executive branch.

Second is the overall philosophy that is enumerated in the bill of rights first amendment. How can someone truly be expressing this right if they are not allowed to speak their faith without fear of government intrusion (taxation) in this case. Speech and faith are protected especially in the case of dissenting political speech or beliefs.

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Then you believe that there should be no tax on anything. Under this, there should be no individual taxes because it's the power to punish those who exercise their first amendment rights of free speech.

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This is what really bugs me. My deeply held beliefs and convictions are less protected and I am less free because I don't claim they come from a religion. I suppose I could start up a charitable organization that is it religiously affiliated but in these conversations I always get the feeling that claiming religionGrant special privileges and special protections.I shouldn't have to claim any religious affiliation to attain extra freedoms

RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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He didn't say Catholics can't vote for a candidate. He said if a Catholic votes for a pro-abortion candidate they are putting their eternal soul in serious peril, especially if they receive communion.

They are free to vote for whoever they choose, but they should understand how how their vote should be viewed in light of the religion they profess to follow.

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I agree, but what irritates me is how we limit this solely to abortion. Would voting for a candidate that openly advocates murdering the families of those we deem "terrorists" not be just as offensive to our faith?

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I think abortion is about the worst thing a person can do however, I believe murdering the family of these merely deemed terrible is pretty darn despicable enough on its own. With that being said; I think the reason Abortion is harped on so much, is that there are huge numbers of Americans who are fighting for the right to murder their own children, and who think such an action is fine....I would hope there aren't many Americans who think the same thing about the scenario regarding terrorists.

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I would hope there aren't many Americans who think the same thing about the scenario regarding terrorists.

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I would hope so too, but given the popularity of the man who called for it, I'm not so sure that hope is well founded. I am curious if there were any polls done on that question after his comment. Reading the comments sections of related articles gives me reason to believe that there are more than we would expect that would support such a policy.

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government is secretly controlled by lizard people.

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Not far from the truth. A snake is about to take the white house.

Frok said:

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Quote:

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government is secretly controlled by lizard people.

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Not far from the truth. A snake is about to take the white house.

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The only question is which snake.

No, one is a turkey, the other is a snake.

Frok said:

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No, one is a turkey, the other is a snake.

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Nah, I'm gonna stick with two snakes.

What kind of snake? A yuuuuuge one, the biggest snake you've ever seen. The guys from Guinness; blew them away; best and biggest snake they've ever seen

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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What kind of snake? A yuuuuuge one, the biggest snake you've ever seen. The guys from Guinness; blew them away; best and biggest snake they've ever seen

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One is a snake one is an orange-utan

I'm personally against rape but I think it's better for society; who am I to judge anyway?

huh?

k2aggie07 said:

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Your position on abortion puts you outside of the orthodox position of the Christian faith going back to the 100s. As a self-proclaimed Catholic I think you should consider that.

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I just don't think of my faith as a way to organize society. I live my own life through Catholic principles.

Anyway, again, It simply wouldn't be sustainable (in many ways) to add millions and millions more of unwanted kids to the population every decade. Please tell me how this is sustainable and a net positive for society? You know deep down what happens to kids who have nobody to care for them and love them. They end up being misfits more often than not. Look no further than our inner cities where the kids end up raising the kids and learn to live on the streets. It doesn't end well. And that's just the societal impact. From a financial standpoint, it would be crippling to support that many people.

Do you guys really think of these things? We already have millions of unwanted people in this country and you see the results of this when you look at our prison system.