And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

Is there any question?

When was America righteous and not run by the wicked?

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When was America righteous and not run by the wicked?

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yes, but the important thing was gays and *****s got what was coming to them.

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And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

Again, tell me when this country wasn't in a sad state? When were we not run by misfits? Did God favor us during the years we were slaughtering the 'barbaric' natives? Maybe when we held millions of enslaved humans? I get you think the gays are icky. . . but what sort of backwards ass morality puts that down as a worse crime than genocide?

Atheists tell me genocide is biblically moral.

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Atheists tell me genocide is biblically moral.

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Christians tell me that slavery, genocide, and subjugation of women is immoral, yet this is what they apparently yearn for. . . I'm so confused.

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I'm so confused.

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That's quite apparent, young SJW.

Opposition to abolitionism[edit]
Passages in the Bible on the use and regulation of slavery have been used throughout history as justification for the keeping of slaves, and for guidance in how it should be done. Therefore, when abolition was proposed, many Christians spoke vociferously against it, citing the Bible's acceptance of slavery as 'proof' that it was part of the normal condition. George Whitefield, famed for his sparking of the Great Awakening of American evangelicalism, campaigned, in the Province of Georgia, for the legalisation of slavery,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Cashin-115][115][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-116][116][/url] joining the ranks of the slave owners that he had denounced in his earlier years, while contending they had souls and opposing mistreatment and owners who resisted his evangelism of slaves.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-117][117][/url] Slavery had been outlawed in Georgia, but it was legalised in 1751 due in large part to Whitefield's efforts. He bought enslaved Africans to work on his plantation and the orphanage he established in Georgia. Selina Hastings, Countess of Huntingdon inherited these slaves and kept them in bondage.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Cashin-115][115][/url]
In both Europe and the United States many Christians went further, arguing that slavery was actually justified by the words and doctrines of the Bible.

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[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.
Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-118][118][/url]

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... the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.
Richard Furman, President, South Carolina Baptist Convention[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-119][119][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-120][120][/url]

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In 1837, southerners in the Presbyterian denomination joined forces with conservative northerners to drive the antislavery New School Presbyterians out of the denomination. In 1844, the Methodist Episcopal Church split into northern and southern wings over the issue of slavery. In 1845, the Baptists in the South formed the Southern Baptist Convention due to disputes with Northern Baptists over slavery and missions.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-121][121][/url]

Kurt, I'll let you know that the Christians who have posted thus far on this thread do not have the intellectual honesty to answer your question.

They can only cloud the truth, hyperbole, or in most cases, flat out lie.

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

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He has not grown weary of us, but I do not think that America is anything special in his eyes. We have never been a Christian nation that God had some favor over because we were obedient. As it has been pointed out, we have shown little obedience since the beginning.

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My family has been in this country for hundreds of years, my grand daddies were decent fellows. I guess I sometimes forget the bad ones that lived back then gave a terrible burden for their offsprings.

Kurt, you can't go thru like beating yourself up for the sins of your family, it is not your fault.

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Kurts point




















Your head

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Kurt, I'll let you know that the Christians who have posted thus far on this thread do not have the intellectual honesty to answer your question.

They can only cloud the truth, hyperbole, or in most cases, flat out lie.

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I recognize they don't speak for any other Christian other than themselves.

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When did the U.S. practice genocide as a policy? There may have been a result similar to genocide with regard to the American Indians, but so far as I know, that was never U.S. public policy. To describe US policies as "genocide" is to dilute badly the meaning of the word.

And, during those past years that you seem to consider so horrible, it was the evangelical Christians who alone led the crusade against slavery, both here and in the Great Britain. Has that ever happened in world history before, that a culture recognized its wickedness and changed without external forces requiring it too, and at incalculable cost to itself? You ignore the wonder of the fact that our culture was able to rid itself of that evil institution.

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When did the US have a policy of torture? I guess that means we've never tortured anyone. If what America did to the Native Americans was NOT genocide, then what is. Low estimates of Native American populations pre-Columbus are 10 Million and high estimates at 50 million.

The evangelical Christians crusaded against slavery? Against whom? Who was defending slavery? The hordes of pagans, atheists, and satan worshipers in America at the time? Does the church want a pat on the back for eventually coming around to the idea of racial equality after centuries of enslavement, murder, torture, and the absolute raping of Western Africa in the Atlantic slave trade? Congrats! Job well done!

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And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

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Prosperity gospel

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you are one sick dude

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Prosperity gospel is sick

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And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

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Prosperity gospel

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How so? I don't tithe so I can get a G650 or a Bentley.

Race based slavery is not the historical norm. And the US is not the only country to practice slavery.

Here's a fun challenge. Demonstrate that slavery is objectively wrong. (Thread derail incoming).

Edit: in fact, I would suggest that racial and gender equality as expressed in western society is a product of the church more than any secular movement, including the enlightenment. I can show you quotes from church fathers arguing for equality before the law for genders in the 400s.

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When did the U.S. practice genocide as a policy? There may have been a result similar to genocide with regard to the American Indians, but so far as I know, that was never U.S. public policy. To describe US policies as "genocide" is to dilute badly the meaning of the word.

And, during those past years that you seem to consider so horrible, it was the evangelical Christians who alone led the crusade against slavery, both here and in the Great Britain. Has that ever happened in world history before, that a culture recognized its wickedness and changed without external forces requiring it too, and at incalculable cost to itself? You ignore the wonder of the fact that our culture was able to rid itself of that evil institution.

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When did the US have a policy of torture? I guess that means we've never tortured anyone. If what America did to the Native Americans was NOT genocide, then what is. Low estimates of Native American populations pre-Columbus are 10 Million and high estimates at 50 million.

The evangelical Christians crusaded against slavery? Against whom? Who was defending slavery? The hordes of pagans, atheists, and satan worshipers in America at the time? Does the church want a pat on the back for eventually coming around to the idea of racial equality after centuries of enslavement, murder, torture, and the absolute raping of Western Africa in the Atlantic slave trade? Congrats! Job well done!

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It's like Baylor congratulating itself for finally firing a coach who covers up rape once everyone knew.

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And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

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Prosperity gospel

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How so? I don't tithe so I can get a G650 or a Bentley.

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You are saying we have turned away from God and as a result things are bad and God is weary of us. You suggest if we turn to him things will be good and God will be happy with us. This is prosperity gospel. You're rewarded or punished based on how good you are at christianing. It's sick

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I'm And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
-Romans 1:28

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The state of this country is sad beyond belief. It does seem as though God has grown weary of us.

Prayer and turning back to Him with repentance can turn things around. We, as a nation, better get on it right now though.

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Prosperity gospel

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How so? I don't tithe so I can get a G650 or a Bentley.

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You are saying we have turned away from God and as a result things are bad and God is weary of us. You suggest if we turn to him things will be good and God will be happy with us. This is prosperity gospel. You're rewarded or punished based on how good you are at christianing. It's sick

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Ok

Just a pet peeve of mine. Christians bash Joel osteen while they themselves go around saying being a good Christian will make one prosper and being a bad Christian will cause one to face struggles.

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Just a pet peeve of mine. Christians bash Joel osteen while they themselves go around saying being a good Christian will make one prosper and being a bad Christian will cause one to face struggles.

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So.

I thought Joel was the leader of the prosperity gospel movement.

Ancient Rome was far more debauched and oppressive than America 2016 and yet he simply said give to caesar what is caesar's. God's favor does not come and go, and is not conditioned on the particular policies of modern nation states at particular points in history. To believe that is true means imputing different weights to different sins, which is a human mistake, not something that God does. It means believing that the sins of previous generations are somehow less serious in God's eyes than whatever are the perceived sins du jour people happen to be obsessed in 2016. His kingdom is not of this world, no matter how much some people want it to be on earth.

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Race based slavery is not the historical norm. And the US is not the only country to practice slavery.

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Slavery (not always directly racial) is absolutely a historical motif.

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Here's a fun challenge. Demonstrate that slavery is objectively wrong. (Thread derail incoming).

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I cannot. That was a short derailment.

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Edit: in fact, I would suggest that racial and gender equality as expressed in western society is a product of the church more than any secular movement, including the enlightenment. I can show you quotes from church fathers arguing for equality before the law for genders in the 400s.

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The church has been enormously impactful in most every aspect of society in Western culture. But don't feed me nonsense about the righteous Church's crusade for gender equality when they were a prime contributor of the force for inequality for 1500 years previous. Don't feed me nonesnse about the righteous church's crusade to end slavery when it endorsed it, in some form or fashion, for centuries. The Bible hasn't changed. Modern Christian morality is not recognizable from Christian morality 300 years ago, 600 years ago, 1000 years ago, 1500 years ago. . . . Has it taken Christians 2000 years to truly understand Jesus's message or do you think that just maybe some external forces played a role in DRAGGING the church toward social equality?

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The church has been enormously impactful in most every aspect of society in Western culture. But don't feed me nonsense about the righteous Church's crusade for gender equality when they were a prime contributor of the force for inequality for 1500 years previous. Don't feed me nonesnse about the righteous church's crusade to end slavery when it endorsed it, in some form or fashion, for centuries. The Bible hasn't changed. Modern Christian morality is not recognizable from Christian morality 300 years ago, 600 years ago, 1000 years ago, 1500 years ago. . . . Has it taken Christians 2000 years to truly understand Jesus's message or do you think that just maybe some external forces played a role in DRAGGING the church toward social equality?

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Who said Western?

I think you need to redefine inequality vs equality. And I wasn't saying 400 years AGO, I mean in the actual 400s. Like 380-450 AD. And not just one writer but many, specifically saying that it's wrong that men and women are treated differently before the law, because they are equal in God's eyes.

I'm not going to tell you the church opposed slavery because the opposition to slavery is more or less a global product of the enlightenment. I'm not saying it's wrong or right objectively... I think objectively race based slavery is wrong, but to really say that slavery is wrong I'd have to fall back on the scriptures. I can't come up with an objective reason for it.

And I think you'd be surprised about Christian morality. I've had this discussion before on this forum. Christian authors from the 100s have some surprisingly modern takes on morality, particularly for their time -- certainly closer to me and you than their contemporary counterparts. If anything, the church has DRAGGED society along over 2000 years to where we are today (society including their own members).

Did God love America more or less during Prohibition??

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To believe that is true means imputing different weights to different sins, which is a human mistake, not something that God does.

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John 19:11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."

Ez. 8:6 And he said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here, to drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see still greater abominations."

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him lifeto those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.