Landmark Vatican conference rejects just war theory

YES!

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"Too often the 'just war theory' has been used to endorse rather than prevent or limit war,....Suggesting that a 'just war' is possible also undermines the moral imperative to develop tools and capacities for nonviolent transformation of conflict."

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I just want to put in that "just war theory" isn't an issue of Catholic Dogma nor doctrine; it's a philosophy held by the Church.

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I just want to put in that "just war theory" isn't an issue of Catholic Dogma nor doctrine; it's a philosophy held by the Church.

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Did I call it or what!
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2739078/replies/45941531

Doctrine or not, nothing has changed yet. I certainly don't see the point in trying to poke Catholics on this. This isn't meant as some non-Catholic vs Catholic fight or "gotcha" thing. It's missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of what happens next, this is a significant development, especially for those within the church that advocate nonviolence.

Now, I don't know what an "encyclical" is, but if we are going to see one on this issue, this couldn't have come at a better time w/ the current Pope.

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Now, I don't know what an "encyclical" is, but if we are going to see one on this issue, this couldn't have come at a better time w/ the current Pope.

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I'm not entirely interested in this conference, but an encyclical is a type of letter meant to circulate the Roman Catholic church. The purpose is a type of remembrance of who the church is, encouragement, etc. in a time of instability, like a love letter to a spouse abroad. You wouldn't expect anything "new" in them so I'm not sure why this writer would expect one on this topic.

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Everything I see says doctrine.

http://www.catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

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The just war doctrine of the Catholic Church - sometimes mistaken as a "just war theory"

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You seem to be mistaken.

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I can assure you I'm not mistaken; the just war doctrine explains how war can sometimes be a moral action if certain precepts are met; it's got nothing to do with the repository of faith of the Catholic Church. The word "doctrine" has different meanings in the Catholic Church; as I'm sure you've found out by now, that's why sometimes Doctrine and Tradition are capitalized; and sometimes they're not.

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Doctrine or not, nothing has changed yet.

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Exactly

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The document produced by this conference, titled "An Appeal to the Catholic Church to Re-Commit to the Centrality of Gospel Nonviolence," is just that an appeal. Participants don't have the authority to change Church teachings on their own, but were tasked with making recommendations for Pope Francis to review and consider.

It's far from certain he'll go as far as the conference would like. During the Second Vatican Council, when a commission convened to study the impact of birth control on society put out a document suggesting that, contrary to previous teaching, contraception was not intrinsically sinful, the pope at the time, Paul VI, formally repudiated it.

One could argue that the change proposed by the just war conference is different in kind from the change the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control wanted. If, for example, the pope concluded that the fourth criterion named above is impossible to fulfill in today's world given modern weaponry, he might be able to deem the theory obsolete without suggesting it's incorrect per se.

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Now, I don't know what an "encyclical" is, but if we are going to see one on this issue, this couldn't have come at a better time w/ the current Pope.

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An encyclical is essentially a papal letter. For example the most recent one Amoris Laetitia was released about a week ago. Encyclical

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A papal document treating of matters related to the general welfare of the Church, sent by the Pope to the bishops. Used especially in modern times to express the mind of the Pope to the people. Although of themselves not infallible documents, encyclicals may (and generally do) contain pronouncements on faith and morals that are de facto infallible because they express the ordinary teaching of the Church. In any case, the faithful are to give the papal encyclicals their interior assent and external respect as statements of the Vicar of Christ.

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I don't understand. Everywhere I've seen this mentioned, I've seen the word doctrine. Can you explain why that wouldn't mean this is doctrine?

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I think this article might help more.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/11/why-just-war-theory-is-called-just-war-theory.html

Which encyclical? As far as I can tell JPII did not release one that year; Papal Encyclicals of Pope John Paul II.

Also posted earlier, encyclicals in themselves are not infallible documents although they may and generally do contain pronouncements on faith and morals that are de facto infallible because they express the ordinary teaching of the Church.

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Not sure, I just read that somewhere. I'm drunk now, so I'm not in a searching mood.

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Have to love the non-Catholic who knows for a fact which Catholic teachings are considered infallible but only in a vague I read it somewhere sort of way.

Why now? Why not, say, 75 years ago?

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Not sure, I just read that somewhere. I'm drunk now, so I'm not in a searching mood.

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Have to love the non-Catholic who knows for a fact which Catholic teachings are considered infallible but only in a vague I read it somewhere sort of way.

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You know as well as I do that it's really the Zima equivalent talking and not AstroAg.

I like the point of the conference. I like the fact that we should be emphasizing peace not war.

I'm just wondering what the final teaching will be.

I do think that there is such a thing as a just war. I would still kick Pol Pot's and Hitler's ass to stop their atrocities. I would kick Saddam out of Kuwait again, as well.

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Not sure, I just read that somewhere. I'm drunk now, so I'm not in a searching mood.

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Have to love the non-Catholic who knows for a fact which Catholic teachings are considered infallible but only in a vague I read it somewhere sort of way.

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You know as well as I do that it's really the Zima equivalent talking and not AstroAg.

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Yea, astro should really wait until those smirnoff ices wear off before posting.

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Also, I provided several sources which explicitly stated it was doctrine.

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As pointed out already, this whole tangent you've taken is much to do about nothing since nothing has been changed at all.

Second, you seem to be hung up the use of the word doctrine when it comes to this teaching as if it is an infallible statement equivalent to the Church's dogmatic teachings on the Trinity or the Sacraments. As articulated in the essay linked by BustUp, "Just War Theory" is a set of principles in which Catholics may use in order to make a moral decision not an infallible set of rules.

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I like the point of the conference. I like the fact that we should be emphasizing peace not war.

I'm just wondering what the final teaching will be.

I do think that there is such a thing as a just war. I would still kick Pol Pot's and Hitler's ass to stop their atrocities. I would kick Saddam out of Kuwait again, as well.

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There are enemies we can justly fight. I don't know if that means there can be a just war. Hitler needed to be defeated, but I wouldn't call an alliance with the Soviet Union the promotion of justice.

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There are enemies we can justly fight. I don't know if that means there can be a just war.

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Can you explain the distinction here a bit more? I am confused.

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I like the point of the conference. I like the fact that we should be emphasizing peace not war.

I'm just wondering what the final teaching will be.

I do think that there is such a thing as a just war. I would still kick Pol Pot's and Hitler's ass to stop their atrocities. I would kick Saddam out of Kuwait again, as well.

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Does the Catholic stance on what a Just war is any different from the military doctrine?

War is inevitable and the fact that the theory has been applied inappropriately at times seems like a strange reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If you do not believe in Just War Theory, what do you replace it with? As I mentioned in the first thread on this, you really can only choose pacifism or militarism (for the extremes) to replace Just War theory.

I guess I don't see what the actual problem with Just War Theory is since it basically states that war is terrible, but is not always the worst option.

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There are enemies we can justly fight. I don't know if that means there can be a just war.

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Can you explain the distinction here a bit more? I am confused.

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We can justifiably go to war with certain enemies. However, I don't know if there is practically such a thing as a "just war." The very nature of war leads to decisions that are utilitarian but objectively immoral, or at best of dubious morality. Case in point would be our alliance with the Soviet Union or strategic bombing as a tool in WWII.

You are referring to Jus in Bello (laws of war) versus Jus ad Bellum (Just war theory).

Jus ad Bellum is used to determine if it is moral to enter into armed conflict while Jus In Bello dictates morality while engaged in combat.

EDIT- Can't get my Latin right :-(

To an extent. But it's debatable whether one is morally justified entering a conflict when knowing that the prosecution of the war will lead to immoral actions or outcomes.

I think that this is a fair distinction.

I do think it is fair to consider the probability of war crimes in any war.

Certainly agree.

The problem with morals in war (so far as I see it) is they change over time. For example, the strategic bombing campaigns of World War II were considered just and moral, for their time. They would be completely unacceptable by todays standards.

You see attempts to define Jus in bello with the creation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the applications of both LOAC and ROE in military conflicts.

Another part of Just War Theory is proportionality. Let's take the WWII example you mentioned and think attempt to apply proportionality to the decision of allying with the Soviets.

Would the option to not ally with the soviets have been a better or worse option than allying them? Would non-combatant suffering have been worse? Did the long term implications of not stopping the Nazi's outweigh the short-term implications of allying with the soviets?

These are difficult questions for an early 21st century individual to answer because we are used to fighting wars with technology that can place munitions within a few feet of the exact spot on the face of the Earth that we want to hit. This, of course, brings up different morality problems that could be sacrificing the long-term gains for short-term gains, but that is a different conversation.

I figured it was the Catechism of the Catholic Church since it was released in 1992 but went with your claim of an encyclical. My point of contention is that a non-Catholics with at best a periphery understanding of how the Church operates claims to know what is an infallible teaching.

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Not sure, I just read that somewhere. I'm drunk now, so I'm not in a searching mood.

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Have to love the non-Catholic who knows for a fact which Catholic teachings are considered infallible but only in a vague I read it somewhere sort of way.

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Source. It wasn't an encyclical, it was the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Had you actually read my sources you wouldn't have asked where I got it from, since it was the sentence after one I quoted, and had previously linked to.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

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The catechism is a compendium of church teaching; not all church teaching is infallible nor rises to the level of dogma. I believe the catechism discusses evolution; and that's certainly not an infallible belief of the church. Just War doctrine; is a doctrine in the sense that it's a philosophy regarding how it's possible to morally make war on someone; it's closely related to the principle of double-effect; both are theories; schools of thought; not religious doctrines.

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I figured it was the Catechism of the Catholic Church since it was released in 1992 but went with your claim of an encyclical. My point of contention is that a non-Catholics with at best a periphery understanding of how the Church operates claims to know what is an infallible teaching.

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Well then correct me. I can't learn if I just get dismissed as a non catholic every time I'm mistaken.

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We just think it's funny sometimes when people correct us about what is Catholic doctrine and what isn't Catholic doctrine. I would have thought that the article saying a "Catholic group in the Vatican is lobbying to change the church reliance on Just war doctrine" would have led you to understand that if a Catholic group is lobbying inside the vatican to change something; it likely doesn't belong to the unchanging deposit of faith.