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The piece was written for Catholics. I knew in posting it that this particular part would not sit well with non-Catholics, decided it was worth posting anyways.

I find you're complaint of "arrogance" some what amusing considering I saw a couple of your flippant remarks on the thread that discussed NFP in the same light.

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One more thing. Trying to mitigate the arrogance of the comment by saying it was only meant for Catholics is the same as my maternal grandparents only using the n word around other white people. Of course they would never say that around mixed company, that would be rude.

it's complex....some of my own volition, some from my ancestors

My ancestors were French catholics before protestants existed
Somewhere, they became prots, probably after William took knights to England
I dont believe Peter is the first pope, and many popes were off track
The Roman bishop is not the first among the equals of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Rome to my limited understanding
Roman corruption
Antisemitism and replacement theology
Just dont buy that Rome is the center of Christianity...as a prot, I would be orthodox before catholic if i had to choose
Fusion of pagan customs with worship....where did the halo come from, ie mithra

That said, I love the catholic brethren, I have no desire to argue with you

Got in here late. My answer to the original question is basically the same as many of the Prots who have weighed in. We do not believe that the "church" ordained by Jesus is the RCC. We do not believe that Peter was the first pope in Rome. In fact, outside of RCC sources, there is no evidence Peter ever set foot in Rome. We believe that the RCC is no different from the Jewish hierarchy that Jesus condemned. We believe, as is written in the Bible, the first "church" was in Jerusalem, and was headed by the Lord's brother James. We believe that since the early leaders had to rebuke Peter for his association with the Judiisers, he was not the guy in charge. We believe that, in Paul's letters to the churches he established, he would have told them about the hierarchy they should look to for authority. We don't believe in Apostlolic succession. We don't believe in original sin as defined by the RCC, so therefore don't see the need for infant baptism (which does nothing for the child) or the immaculate conception of Mary. Because we don't believe the above, we put little or no stock in tradition.

We believe that the church is the bride of Christ, in the priesthood of the believer, and the sufficiency of Christ. We believe that we should come together as a body of believers, the learn, to lift one another up, and for Christian fellowship (being Baptist, that means food). The Holy Spirit which Indwells me guides me as I read God's word.

If Jesus didn't mean to establish a hierarchy he certainly put his foot in his mouth with the whole "keys to the kingdom" spiel; and the "feed my sheep" stuff.

Why do you guys think Peter is mentioned first so often in the bible?

Did that include Roman corruption?

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Not sure what I said on that thread would be defined as arrogant but I imagine it has to do with the uncomfortable meeting with my future ancient in laws.

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No not your the little bit about your in-laws other than the shock that they might have had a loving and seemingly full sex life using NFP.

I found the comment about the deacon dismissive considering you were the one asking the Church to marry you and your wife. I also found the rolling eyes bit about mortal sin arrogant not only to Catholic beliefs but to your wife's concerns. Now I felt her action of undertaking NFP unilaterally was mistaken but than again maybe she felt you were being closed minded to her with NFP. Now I apologize if I'm wrong, but it was how you came across to me at least.

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One more thing. Trying to mitigate the arrogance of the comment by saying it was only meant for Catholics is the same as my maternal grandparents only using the n word around other white people. Of course they would never say that around mixed company, that would be rude.

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Fair enough. IMO, the scandal of division in the body of Christ falls upon us all, maybe more so upon the Catholic Church.

Im not interested in arguing with the catholic brethren....booboo asked a question in good conscience, and I answered in good conscience, we are not solving on RP a controversy of centuries....

My view is believers of all types need to unite against a common enemy, not each other

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My biggest issues are virgin birth of Mary, Mary never sinned, Mary was never with Joseph, Pope infallibility, Structure of church, equal weight to tradition and the bible.

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Thanks for responding.

1) Don't think it is equal weight tradition and bible. I would say it is 80% bible 20% tradition. The Catholic Mass is saturated from OT and NT. Whatever the % number is, the Church made the bible (NT). Also think Luther got it wrong with his Solo- Only Statements. It is Not Only.

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Woah, Solo and Sola are two different words and the distinction is important.

How can anyone argue James was Peter's superior? In ACTS 15 James himself uses the Greek verb exegesato which means "issues a ruling" or "declaring" to describe Peter's pronouncements at the council of Jerusalem, and "akuoo" to describe his own, which means "to give ones opinion"; i.e. non-authoritative. This is the opinion also head by such early church fathers as St.Jerome, St.Augustine, and St.John Chrystosom.

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My biggest issues are virgin birth of Mary, Mary never sinned, Mary was never with Joseph, Pope infallibility, Structure of church, equal weight to tradition and the bible.

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Thanks for responding.

1) Don't think it is equal weight tradition and bible. I would say it is 80% bible 20% tradition. The Catholic Mass is saturated from OT and NT. Whatever the % number is, the Church made the bible (NT). Also think Luther got it wrong with his Solo- Only Statements. It is Not Only.

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Woah, Solo and Sola are two different words and the distinction is important.

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Sola means only, correct,as in Scripture Alone, And Faith alone, no?

Not arguing James was "superior" to Peter....however, the fact remains that James was quoted in Acts 15, not Peter

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Not arguing James was "superior" to Peter....however, the fact remains that James was quoted in Acts 15, not Peter

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James is quoted in ACTS 15 testifying to Peter's authoritative ruling, and to his own opinions.

Beautiful words by Chrystosom

"you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world."

Who appears more authoritative, James or Peter? From plain reading, it appears James is given more weight...but it is a matter of interpretation

Do you never tire of fighting an old battle, when a greater challenge is on your doorstep?

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Who appears more authoritative, James or Peter? From plain reading, it appears James is given more weight...but it is a matter of interpretation

Do you never tire of fighting an old battle, when a greater challenge is on your doorstep?

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James is the Bishop of Jerusalem; no doubt; as the council is in Jersualem, it's his ball game to run, but he still lacks Peter's authority; which he testifies to and is noticed by The early writings of the Fathers


you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world."

What greater challenge lies on my doorstep?

I visited Peter's house in Capernaum..if you have never been, please go, it is an incredible blessing! I love Peter, I just dont believe he is the first pope, or the roman church is first among equals as first claimed by Leo....

Please, lets leave it at that, there are much greater challenges for believers like you and myself these days...

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I visited Peter's house in Capernaum..if you have never been, please go, it is an incredible blessing! I love Peter, I just dont believe he is the first pope, or the roman church is first among equals as first claimed by Leo....

Please, lets leave it at that, there are much greater challenges for believers like you and myself these days...

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Very well sir, what do you think the challenge is? Let's discuss that

I believe the battle of the day is whether the world and its views will prevail, or the word of the Lord.....the world rejects wholeheartedly the word of the Lord, and is blind to the coming Day of the Lord

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I believe the battle of the day is whether the world and its views will prevail, or the word of the Lord.....the world rejects wholeheartedly the word of the Lord, and is blind to the coming Day of the Lord

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I think we both know how that ends up.

I don't know if you like apocalyptic religious thrillers but Lord of the World, and Father Elijah are two of the best books regarding the end of the world I've read. They are both wholly Catholic in theme, but absolutely excellent reads

Thanks for the refs! I will read them for sure! I would recommend to you Joel Richardson, Nelson Waters, and Alan Kurschner, all pre-wrath advocates, and who have an understanding of the times we are in...of interest to any believer

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If Jesus didn't mean to establish a hierarchy he certainly put his foot in his mouth with the whole "keys to the kingdom" spiel; and the "feed my sheep" stuff.

Why do you guys think Peter is mentioned first so often in the bible?

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Nope, all machinations of Catholicism

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it's complex....some of my own volition, some from my ancestors

My ancestors were French catholics before protestants existed
Somewhere, they became prots, probably after William took knights to England
I dont believe Peter is the first pope, and many popes were off track
The Roman bishop is not the first among the equals of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Rome to my limited understanding
Roman corruption
Antisemitism and replacement theology
Just dont buy that Rome is the center of Christianity...as a prot, I would be orthodox before catholic if i had to choose
Fusion of pagan customs with worship....where did the halo come from, ie mithra

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Thanks for answering

1) Peter wasn't first pope- From my perspective, pretty clear with Council of Jerusalem in 50 AD, St. Paul shows the authority was with the Apostles and especially Peter. Instead of going off and doing what he wants, he went to Peter. Early church fathers show and discuss how Rome was a step above the other Bishops. Note: this was over hundreds of years. Like the bible it was something that developed over time.

2) Orthodox and Catholic are very close, I find it interesting that Scott Hahn (big Catholic Apologist Protestant turned Catholic) reason to become Catholic over Orthodox, was the unity. He saw all the Orthodox groups break off into their own groups. Catholic faith offers worldwide unity. Today across the world roughly 1.2 billion Catholics pray the exact same Mass- same readings. Key reason for this is all the bishops are united under one bishop (Pope). It makes sense- large organizations are run this way.

3) Corruption- You bet, the Catholic church (and your church) has been run at times by flawed and failed men. As I see it the issue is not corruption of men (this will always occur to some degree), but rather what Jesus says and authority. Note: corruption, bad behavior should not be tolerated or covered up, but rooted out and eliminated.

4) Pagan customs- need to look at how and why and circumstances. Some pagan customs were incorporated others were not. Take the Cross- this was meant to be a sign a fear and Catholics/Christians took this and flipped it around. It can be liken to the middle finger, in that we Christians are not afraid. We have Jesus, we do not fear the world's threats against us. See all the Saints Martyrs.

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That said, I love the catholic brethren, I have no desire to argue with you

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On this we agree, we are both Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Have a great day at church- YBIC BooBoo

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Woah, Solo and Sola are two different words and the distinction is important.

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Your right, I thought Martin Luther was the country singer that sang the Red Solo cup song. My bad.

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Im not interested in arguing with the catholic brethren....booboo asked a question in good conscience, and I answered in good conscience, we are not solving on RP a controversy of centuries....

My view is believers of all types need to unite against a common enemy, not each other

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Come on! have some confidence. We can resolve this entire Protestant vs Catholic thing in 10 minutes. Just Agree with US! The give is all on your end and not ours. We don't need to change, we are perfect.

I had a good laugh when I read your post. It is so true. This conflict will only be resolved through love and the Holy spirit guiding us. Have Blessed day Brother!

Still no prots running to embrace Catholic positions though booboo assures us they are simply misinformed and will change their mind when educated by the Catholics. Still not an ounce of humility from booboo who can't admit he lied. Hubris abounds however.

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It doesn't at all resemble the church Christ founded, worshipping a man elected in a political process and I already work for a bank.

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Who worships a man?

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Watch the TV coverage of the pope in Mexico. Catholics worship a man.

Love how you're capable of reading their hearts and minds.

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Watch the TV coverage of the pope in Mexico. Catholics worship a man.

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We agree. Fully man and Fully God= Jesus!

I'm not Catholic because I believe in the absolute finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for my salvation.

Booboo still can't find a drop of humility to admit his entire premise for this thread is false and insulting. Complete anathema to Christ.

Not one Protestant is closer to Catholicism due to his mental gyrations though he assures us they are merely uninformed and would agree with him if they only understood his truth. Such empty vanity and hubris.

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It doesn't at all resemble the church Christ founded, worshipping a man elected in a political process and I already work for a bank.

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Who worships a man?

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Watch the TV coverage of the pope in Mexico. Catholics worship a man.

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Har. The only man we worship is the only one that also happens to be Divine. You seem to have set a low bar for what constitutes "worship." Perhaps crowds cheering the Pope is what you claim as worship (indeed, that is a rather low bar), yet you should tread carefully, as jkag states, you do not know their hearts or minds.

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I'm not Catholic because I believe in the absolute finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for my salvation.

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Catholics believe in the absolute finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for our salvation too!

While a agree that the knowledgable Catholics here don't worship the pope or the saints I sympathize with the perspective because from the outside it very much appears exactly like worship. All we have to go on is you assertion that in your heart you aren't worshipping the pope or the saints while everything observable is indicative of worship. Catholics can say we don't understand but I think many outsiders just reject the narrow distinction that you can do worship type things and just define it as not being worship.

As long as you do the right amount of works to keep from losing your salvation.