Have Retired start a thread.

"Our thoughts and prayers are not enough." -Obama

****ING THANKS, OBAMA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

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this seems a lot like the devil telling Jesus to jump from the top of the building since the angels will catch him. "Don't put the Lord your God to the test."

Is praying for our will to be done or God's will to be done. Jesus taught "Our father ... your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Got to thinking about this after a discussion at Church last night, and I was going to post something about it anyway. What is the point of prayer? After all, God already know everything you want, and He already knows His own Will. Does He really need us to tell him what He already knows? Is He really waiting for someone to pray before He intervenes in a situation?

We have a lot of older members in my church, and we get near constant "medical request" prayers for people with various ailments. For one, it seems like the wrong priority for prayer, but that would be a different discussion entirely. But even assuming that is an appropriate prayer, is God really waiting for the church to pray en masse before healing someone? Would He decide not to heal them if we didn't pray, but now that we prayed He changed his mind?

I think, and I think most Christians would agree, that prayer improves our relationship with God, and it's more important for us than it is for Him. However, almost no one prays this way. For every one prayer for a closer relationship with God, guidance in a situation, or to improve our patience/generosity/wisdom, we get 100 prayers, in our church at least, requesting healing, financial security, rain or what have you.

I understand the sharing of bad news that happens here and the desire for well-wishes, and I am happy to comfort people people in their hardship. But I think spending any signficant amount of time praying for God to make something happen is just wasting that time. Sorry to ramble. Just something that's been bouncing around in my head, and I'm trying not to be annoyed by it.

Philippians 4:6 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Luke 6:12 - One of those days Jesus went out to the mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God,

Luke 18:1 - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should pray and not give up.

Romans 8:26 - In the same way, that the spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the spirit intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.


Sure seems like we are supposed to pray as it is what we are being commanded to do. I can't answer your question though on if He is already all knowing and has our lives mapped out does it change things? Good question.

We pray because God told us to.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

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this seems a lot like the devil telling Jesus to jump from the top of the building since the angels will catch him. "Don't put the Lord your God to the test."

Is praying for our will to be done or God's will to be done. Jesus taught "Our father ... your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

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They didn't get people sick to pray for them. They went and found sick people and then prayed for them.

Why do you care about convincing us Christians to stop believing in the efficacy of prayer?

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Why do you care about convincing us Christians to stop believing in the efficacy of prayer?

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I don't. Why do you Christians care about convincing Retired of the same thing?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

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this seems a lot like the devil telling Jesus to jump from the top of the building since the angels will catch him. "Don't put the Lord your God to the test."

Is praying for our will to be done or God's will to be done. Jesus taught "Our father ... your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

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They didn't get people sick to pray for them. They went and found sick people and then prayed for them.

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You obviously won't be surprised that I agree with you regarding prayer, but you have to admit the Christian criticism of the study is legitimate. If there is a God, He would know we were trying to prove Him empirically and could easily choose not to respond favorably.

Why He would do such a thing is a different question, but I don't really think any study can actually disprove the power of prayer.

Coming to G-d in prayer is about reminding yourself and perhaps others that G-d is in control. He is who we are supposed to lean on. If everything is rosy most people don't think of G-d. Therefore, things happen and some will think "oh, I should pray to G-d". Unfortunately, most forget to thank him for anything. For their health, for being a loving, merciful, gracious, all powerful G-d, the job you have, etc. Most people whether gripe and complain. Why would G-d give you anything more if you are not content with what you have? G-d is not a candy machine where insert prayer and He gives you whatever you want. We all need to learn to be grateful for what we have and tell Him that we are thankful. Tell Him we know all things come from Him. All things. The seemingly bad and the good.

agie95,

Why do you spell God "G-d?" Just curious.

You are correct in that when we pray we should always thank Him for our blessings first when we pray. I always start by thanking him for everything, follow that asking for the forgiveness of my sins, and then I ask for what I need or talk about what is challenging for me, then I close by turning it all over to Him and His will. I am not saying I am right, that is just my way.

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Why do you spell God "G-d?" Just curious.

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He fancies himself a Jew

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I think, and I think most Christians would agree, that prayer improves our relationship with God, and it's more important for us than it is for Him. However, almost no one prays this way. For every one prayer for a closer relationship with God, guidance in a situation, or to improve our patience/generosity/wisdom, we get 100 prayers, in our church at least, requesting healing, financial security, rain or what have you.

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I think there's nothing wrong with being fully honest with where you are at. I think what's actually coming to light, though, is that we aren't as spiritually progressed as we like to think we are.

However, when you're mired in a bad situation...I don't think God's always expecting us to act like we aren't when praying to him. Sometimes, "God....help" is the best prayer we can offer up.

Kierkegaard wrote that "The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays."

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What is the point of prayer? After all, God already know everything you want, and He already knows His own Will. Does He really need us to tell him what He already knows? Is He really waiting for someone to pray before He intervenes in a situation?

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As someone that leans more towards open theism, I believe prayer is invaluable because we do truly have free will and the future is open.

Here's a good article on why prayer matters from the open theist perspective: http://reknew.org/2015/05/why-prayer-matters/

I place a dash in any of the names I use for G-d. For me, it is about in not using G-d's name in vain. Do I think actually spelling G-d is in vain. No. What if I said something that was not true? Or did not glorify G-d. Then I would be using His name along with something that is not holy or true.

It has nothing to do with being a Jew.

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What if I said something that was not true? Or did not glorify G-d. Then I would be using His name along with something that is not holy or true.

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To be honest, I don't think that simply removing the "o" in God saves you from his wrath in this case, if that's what you believe.

I understand if it's just your own respect thing to keep your mind right...like calling someone "Mr" just so you remember your place.

I don't think it removes me from the wrath of G-d as you call it. A little strong on the wrath part, but nonetheless. I do not want to blasphemy G-d's name...so yes it is out of respect or said another way the Fear of G-d.

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I place a dash in any of the names I use for G-d. For me, it is about in not using G-d's name in vain. Do I think actually spelling G-d is in vain. No. What if I said something that was not true? Or did not glorify G-d. Then I would be using His name along with something that is not holy or true.

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But if you said something that is not true or glorifying to God, but used 'G-d' instead, does the absence of the 'o' really mean it's not being used along with something that is not holy or true? Whether you write 'God' or 'G-d' you are still referring to the same person and using it with something that is not holy or true. I mean, if that something Spirit leads you to do, then please continue. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO. Not saying it's bad to do, or criticizing you for doing so. Heck, I do a lot of things that people think do not make any sense.

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But if you said something that is not true or glorifying to God, but used 'G-d' instead, does the absence of the 'o' really mean it's not being used along with something that is not holy or true? Whether you write 'God' or 'G-d' you are still referring to the same person and using it with something that is not holy or true. I mean, if that something Spirit leads you to do, then please continue. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO. Not saying it's bad to do, or criticizing you for doing so. Heck, I do a lot of things that people think do not make any sense.

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Scripture specifically says not to use G-d's name in vain. I take that literally in all forms. I stated for me and when someone says it does not make sense then you are criticizing. Have I ever said the rest of you need to do so? No. Never. It is something I do.

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But if you said something that is not true or glorifying to God, but used 'G-d' instead, does the absence of the 'o' really mean it's not being used along with something that is not holy or true? Whether you write 'God' or 'G-d' you are still referring to the same person and using it with something that is not holy or true. I mean, if that something Spirit leads you to do, then please continue. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO. Not saying it's bad to do, or criticizing you for doing so. Heck, I do a lot of things that people think do not make any sense.

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Scripture specifically says not to use G-d's name in vain. I take that literally in all forms. I stated for me and when someone says it does not make sense then you are criticizing. Have I ever said the rest of you need to do so? No. Never. It is something I do.

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No, it's not criticizing. Just because it doesn't make sense to someone doesn't mean they are criticizing it. It just means they are not seeing it from the same perspective you are. I agree we shouldn't be using God's name in vain. Whether you say 'God' or 'G-d', you are still referring to the same person and using that identifier in the same way. Removing a letter, at least how I see it, doesn't change what you are saying. If you use 'G-d' along with something that's untrue or unholy, that's no different than using 'God' with something untrue or unholy. That's how my mind is seeing it. It's not a criticism. It's just a difference in how we understand it.

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What is the point of prayer? After all, God already know everything you want, and He already knows His own Will. Does He really need us to tell him what He already knows? Is He really waiting for someone to pray before He intervenes in a situation?

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As someone that leans more towards open theism, I believe prayer is invaluable because we do truly have free will and the future is open.

Here's a good article on why prayer matters from the open theist perspective: http://reknew.org/2015/05/why-prayer-matters/

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I agree that prayer matters because of free will, but I don't think the future is open. I think God took into account our prayers in His providential planning of the world. Knowing that RetiredAg would freely pray in a certain set of circumstances, God may bring about a world world in which his prayers are answered; but had God known that RetiredAg would not pray, God may bring about something else. Prayer isn't to change God's mind - rather, God takes into account our prayers in choosing which world to actualize that brings about his intended will.

Martin Buber had a good explanation of the prayer relationship with God called I-Thou. Can you rationalize not telling your spouse, "I love you", everyday on the basis that they already know that fact? Sure, but good luck! Instead we acknowledge that telling them something they factually know is being affirming, transparent, loving and vulnerable and cultivates a more intimate relationship. Similarly, God knows, but it's still integral to the relationship.

Sorry. This discussion is probably better suited for another thread. Didn't mean to derail this.

> How do you get Christians to admit the impotence of prayer?

Pray that they do

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As someone that leans more towards open theism, I believe prayer is invaluable because we do truly have free will and the future is open.

Here's a good article on why prayer matters from the open theist perspective: [url=http://reknew.org/2015/05/why-prayer-matters/][/url]http://reknew.org/2015/05/why-prayer-matters/

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Thanks for the link. It is interesting to think that God gives believers a measure of supernatural influence that is exercised by prayer so that we can share in His work. It brings up several OT people who were given power without discretion or wisdom, like Sampson or Elisha with the bear incident. So we pray with that influence, but hopefully God protects us from our passions and ignorance. That actually makes a lot of sense.

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I agree that prayer matters because of free will, but I don't think the future is open. I think God took into account our prayers in His providential planning of the world. Knowing that RetiredAg would freely pray in a certain set of circumstances, God may bring about a world world in which his prayers are answered; but had God known that RetiredAg would not pray, God may bring about something else. Prayer isn't to change God's mind - rather, God takes into account our prayers in choosing which world to actualize that brings about his intended will.

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No offense, but I am not a fan of Molinism. I checked into it while researching the prayer question above. If God knows how we would freely act in any situation and then puts us in a situation to act that way, then we don't really have any free will. The reverse is also true. If God knows the conditions it would require to make someone choose Jesus freely, and He doesn't actualize that world then that person didn't have the "free will" to choose Jesus. And yes, I've looked into the "all possible worlds" explanation, but it seems more like mental gymnastics to justify a belief rather than a description of the work of a loving God.

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If God knows how we would freely act in any situation and then puts us in a situation to act that way, then we don't really have any free will. The reverse is also true. If God knows the conditions it would require to make someone choose Jesus freely, and He doesn't actualize that world then that person didn't have the "free will" to choose Jesus. And yes, I've looked into the "all possible worlds" explanation, but it seems more like mental gymnastics to justify a belief rather than a description of the work of a loving God.

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This was my big sticking point. While I won't say for sure open theism is absolutely right, it is the only perspective that I've seen that actually allows for free will. I know people typically get hung up on the idea of an open future as if it negates the omniscience of God. To me, it no more negates the omniscience of God as does His ability to forget our sins.

Reknew.org has a lot on open theism if you are interested in further study on it.

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No offense, but I am not a fan of Molinism. I checked into it while researching the prayer question above. If God knows how we would freely act in any situation and then puts us in a situation to act that way, then we don't really have any free will. The reverse is also true. If God knows the conditions it would require to make someone choose Jesus freely, and He doesn't actualize that world then that person didn't have the "free will" to choose Jesus. And yes, I've looked into the "all possible worlds" explanation, but it seems more like mental gymnastics to justify a belief rather than a description of the work of a loving God.

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This is why I consider my "free will doesn't exist, but since we can't tell...we might as well act like we are free" explanation is simpler for me.