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I agree that prayer matters because of free will, but I don't think the future is open. I think God took into account our prayers in His providential planning of the world. Knowing that RetiredAg would freely pray in a certain set of circumstances, God may bring about a world world in which his prayers are answered; but had God known that RetiredAg would not pray, God may bring about something else. Prayer isn't to change God's mind - rather, God takes into account our prayers in choosing which world to actualize that brings about his intended will.

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No offense, but I am not a fan of Molinism. I checked into it while researching the prayer question above. If God knows how we would freely act in any situation and then puts us in a situation to act that way, then we don't really have any free will. The reverse is also true. If God knows the conditions it would require to make someone choose Jesus freely, and He doesn't actualize that world then that person didn't have the "free will" to choose Jesus. And yes, I've looked into the "all possible worlds" explanation, but it seems more like mental gymnastics to justify a belief rather than a description of the work of a loving God.

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None taken as I'm not a Molinist. Plenty of Calvinist accept middle knowledge and libertarian free will.

What is your definition of free will? If it's something similar to unencumbered ability to make decisions of which culpability is established; then free will in counterfactuals is no less true than in our world. But your criticism is popular and well documented, both objections and responses, as the Grounding Objection.

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Why do you care about convincing us Christians to stop believing in the efficacy of prayer?

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I don't. Why do you Christians care about convincing Retired of the same thing?

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I don't know what you are talking about. I guess there is some joke I'm not around enough to get. I just read your post, not the whole thread.

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Why do you care about convincing us Christians to stop believing in the efficacy of prayer?

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I don't. Why do you Christians care about convincing Retired of the same thing?

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I don't know what you are talking about. I guess there is some joke I'm not around enough to get. I just read your post, not the whole thread.

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retired's response to dangerous situations is to pray for god to intercede, rather than use violence in self-defense. lots of other posters (chistians, generally) basically counter that that is tantamount to doing nothing.

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retired's response to dangerous situations is to pray for god to intercede

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Not to be nitpicky, but it's not just limited to prayer. Any non-violent response is on the table. What that entails really just depends on the circumstances and creativity.

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retired's response to dangerous situations is to pray for god to intercede

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Not to be nitpicky, but it's not just limited to prayer. Any non-violent response is on the table. What that entails really just depends on the circumstances and creativity.

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so, scaring them away with a big hug and kiss isn't off the table?

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so, scaring them away with a big hug and kiss isn't off the table?

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Well, only if they are of the opposite sex. Same sex hugs and kisses as a defense gets into a messy gray area.

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We pray because God told us to.

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When did he tell us?

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Why do you care about convincing us Christians to stop believing in the efficacy of prayer?

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The audacity. Why do Christians care to get others to believe?

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What is your definition of free will? If it's something similar to unencumbered ability to make decisions of which culpability is established; then free will in counterfactuals is no less true than in our world

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That's a hard question to answer without going into a long theological exposition. To be brief, I think God keeps unbelievers in a situation where love/selflessness/Christ and sin/selfishness/hate are equally appealing. Unsaved people then choose one or the other on a moment to moment basis. I believe people become saved when they commit themselves completely to love/selflessness/Christ and repent of sin/selfishness/hate.

I think God will go as far as to harden someone's heart to prevent His miraculous interventions from overpowering the free will to choose between the above.

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You obviously won't be surprised that I agree with you regarding prayer, but you have to admit the Christian criticism of the study is legitimate. If there is a God, He would know we were trying to prove Him empirically and could easily choose not to respond favorably.

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There is a huge difference between jumping off a cliff and praying and god letting you die for your stupidity and studying the earnest prayers of true believers on behalf of sick people in dire need. To ignore the latter means god cares more for staying hidden than he cares about helping the innocent needy. In the other scenario he stays hidden by allowing a stupid person to die for being stupid.

It doesn't disprove prayer, but it highly calls it, or god's character into question. What we can say is that to the best of our careful and repeated scientific study, prayer has no effect on health outcomes.

Don't worry that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't answer your prayers. That's how he tests you.