Are there any old testament passages that point to a trinity?

If you look at your Greek text you will that "in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost" in Matthew 28:19 was added by translators as it is not in most of the original texts.

Trinitarian forgery? Probably. Does it really matter? Probably not?

The way I look at it is if Peter and Paul did not pray to Jesus then it is highly likely that I shouldn't either. I pray to God in the name of Jesus....not to Jesus. There no prayers anywhere in the Bible that are prayed to Jesus. In my opinion, this is the confusion that the Trinity brings in by adding something to Jesus' pedigree that is not necessary for a person to conclude that they should to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead.

My opinion!

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If you look at your Greek text you will that "in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost" in Matthew 28:19 was added by translators as it is not in most of the original texts.

Trinitarian forgery? Probably. Does it really matter? Probably not?

The way I look at it is if Peter and Paul did not pray to Jesus then it is highly likely that I shouldn't either. I pray to God in the name of Jesus....not to Jesus.

There no prayers anywhere in the Bible that are prayed to Jesus. In my opinion, this is the confusion that the Trinity brings in by adding something to Jesus' pedigree that is not necessary for a person to conclude that they should to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead.

My opinion!

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I pray the same exact way.

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Are there any old testament passages that point to a trinity?

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I think so. The OT conceals quite a few mysteries where the NT reveals many. It's more clear in the NT, but here's where I see this in the OT.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Gen. 1:26

Conversation between the God the Father and God the Son. (Jesus is the priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek and is seated at the right hand of God) (Jesus quoted this verse in the NT)
The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." 2 The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." 3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. 4 The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at Your right hand...Psalm 110:1-5

Prophesy that a child will be born who be named Mighty God, Eternal Father, (all refer to Jesus)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;

And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Did God make Job or did the Spirit of God make Job?
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

Trinitarians try too hard to sell a doctrine that just isn't in the Bible. Too many words. Too many spurious examples.

It really is simple. He is the Son of God, not God the Son. We don't pray to him but in his name. He said of himself, "why call you me good?" Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19.

You have to work really hard to miss the obvious. Jesus sits at the right hand of the father. He prayed to the father. He was tempted in all things yet God cannot be tempted. He died. God can't die. He was raised from the dead. He didn't raised himself from the dead. Jesus learned obedience. He did not know everything if he had to learn something. God is all knowing and all seeing. God has not beginning or end. Jesus was born.

Most Trinity believing Christians come to the conclusion that their is a Trinity no matter what they read in the Bible.

The most obvious tell is that people have to reason outside of the Bible to explain what they want to be in the Bible but is not. God is certainly smart enough to explain a tortured doctrine of Trinity if he wanted to. He didn't because that is not what the Word of God reveals.

The Bible teaches that Jesus was the Word in the flesh not the God in the flesh. Two different words in both Greek and English.

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The Bible teaches that Jesus was the Word in the flesh not the God in the flesh. Two different words in both Greek and English.

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Jesus was the Word? John 1:1 says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I think unitarian believe the entire book of John is one big interpolation added by the Pauline Christians to legitimize the trinitarian doctrine

And it does not say that Jesus was God.....you added that. If you read carefully and then think you will see that it actually says that he was the Word in the flesh which makes sense because he always did the Word and he fulfilled the Word. It is just Trinitarian fantasy to say that Jesus is God.

God is pretty smart. If he wanted to say that Jesus was God he would have just said Jesus was God. He didn't. You did. How is it that Jesus was tempted when God says he is not a man that can be tempted? There are hundreds of verses that contradict your man made doctrine. Why is so important that modern man call Jesus God the Son when Peter, Paul, Luke, Mark, John & Timothy never did? What it leads to is idolatry in many forms but mainly when Christians pray to Jesus. There are no records ever of anyone in the Bible praying to Jesus.

If the structure of language if one part of a sentence is false then the entire statement is considered false. You cannot rectify any of the verses that clearly indicate that Jesus was the son of God who learned obedience much less all of them. You ignore those that are clearly inconvenient to your belief system. No verse in the Bible calls Jesus God the son. For those that are not hell bent on promoting this doctrine of men it is very clear.

Again, why do you need to make Jesus co-equal to the Creator when Jesus clearly said of himself that he is not?

Dude, give it up. The early church fathers completely understood the trinity, were told to baptize in the trinitarian formula, AND understood "the Father and I are one" to be a testament to the divinity of Christ, if you don't like that verse there are a handful of explicit verses in John, and scores of others in colossians, corinthians, Matthew and revelations. Seems odd that you'd go against one of the gospels and the early church fathers, but pray as you will.

Dude give yourself up. James, Peter, John, Paul et al.......the "real" early church fathers did not believe in nor promote nor teach nor espouse nor ever even hear of the freaking Trinity. Religious nerds after the "real" early church fathers died came up with this tortuous twisted idolatrous political doctrine and now they beat the hell out of everyone that does not buy into this confusing Bible contradicting crap and call them UnChristian. Plain and simple the "Trinity" is a manmade doctrine. If you were honest you would admit that it is a manmade doctrine.

Regardless, if you want to contradict the Bible and pray to Jesus then just simply knock yourself out. Just don't expect people with a brain to think Jesus Christ is both God and the son of God any more than my son is me!

By the way, I don't care what you believe or how many flies believe with you. God is always right. If you contradict his Word then you contradict God. Jesus never instructed anyone to pray to him during his life on Earth and he sure as hell could have told Paul on the road to Damascus but he didn't did he?

You might also want to check the Greek word for "one" in the verse that you quoted that contradicts the other hundreds of verses about Jesus being the son of God versus God the son. The overwhelming majority of verses in the Bible directly contradict your manmade Trinity doctrine clearly. I am just curious how you just ignore all of those very clear verses? Do tell? Are there other verses in the Bible that you teach that we should ignore as well? Just wondering?

Which verses? The father and I are one? I am the vine you are the branches? Nobody comes to the father except through me? baptize in the name of the father and son and Holy Spirit?

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Dude give yourself up. James, Peter, John, Paul et al.......the "real" early church fathers did not believe in nor promote nor teach nor espouse nor ever even hear of the freaking Trinity. Religious nerds after the "real" early church fathers died came up with this tortuous twisted idolatrous political doctrine and now they beat the hell out of everyone that does not buy into this confusing Bible contradicting crap and call them UnChristian. Plain and simple the "Trinity" is a manmade doctrine. If you were honest you would admit that it is a manmade doctrine.

Regardless, if you want to contradict the Bible and pray to Jesus then just simply knock yourself out. Just don't expect people with a brain to think Jesus Christ is both God and the son of God any more than my son is me!

By the way, I don't care what you believe or how many flies believe with you. God is always right. If you contradict his Word then you contradict God. Jesus never instructed anyone to pray to him during his life on Earth and he sure as hell could have told Paul on the road to Damascus but he didn't did he?

You might also want to check the Greek word for "one" in the verse that you quoted that contradicts the other hundreds of verses about Jesus being the son of God versus God the son. The overwhelming majority of verses in the Bible directly contradict your manmade Trinity doctrine clearly. I am just curious how you just ignore all of those very clear verses? Do tell? Are there other verses in the Bible that you teach that we should ignore as well? Just wondering?

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So what denomination are you in?

I think he's pretty clearly a Unitarian, they essentially believe Christ was a demigod or possibly just a mortal, who was sent by God to fulfill a mission, but he wasn't God himself. They're normally not considered to be "Christian" like Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons and other non Trinitarian beliefs

Any two day old Christian can give you 20 verses to your 1 that clearly prove that Jesus is not God. You are just hell bent on him being God.

I will give you one example of many...yet it will make no difference to you whatsoever. Kind of like throwing pearls before swine.

Hebrews 4:15 Jesus was tempted in all things. James 1:13 God cannot be tempted. There are dozen and dozens of examples if not hundreds. Deductive reasoning and plain thinking are not your friend.

If Jesus were God then he would have no ability to break the Word and no ability to sin. So to say that Jesus knew no sin would be like saying water is wet. Jesus could have sinned but he chose not to as Jesus was tempted to sin.

Jesus was the son of God, not God. He had God's seed. Jesus prayed to God. He did not think that he was God. To say that he and God were one means one in quality or one in purpose. Check out the Greek word for one in that verse. It would be similar to saying we are like minded. However, for Jesus and God it is deeper. God is the Word and Jesus was the Word in the flesh....why because he had God's nature being he was God's seed.

I suppose you think that Jesus could read minds. He couldn't. Was Jesus born knowing everything since he was God? Or did he have to learn like the rest of us? Who is going to teach God anything?

The holes in your understanding and logic are big enough to fly a 777 through.

Dude I am not going to change your mind. You definitely are not going to change my mind. You keep praying to Jesus and I will keep praying to God the Father in the name of his son Jesus Christ.

By the way, the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 is a forgery. It is easy to find. You don't have to stay ignorant. Try Google. Here is one link: http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm

Is all of the bible a forgery? So far we've got the book of Matthew and the book of John. Is Jesus knowing judas would betray him a forgery? Is Jesus knowing that Peter would betray him thrice a forgery? Jesus was both fully God and fully man, as a man he suffered everything that a human would suffer, as a God throughout all his suffering he never sinned. In Matthew again you've got the baptism of Christ, God the father speaking from Heaven, and the periclete descending, was it just a normal dove?

I love how random people with "new" beliefs just show up every once in a while on Texags.

Are you serious Patrick?

Get with the program Patrick!

I mean really, Patrick!!

Your the worst Patrick!!

I'm gonna stab you in the face Patrick!!



On a side note, unknown has one iota of christian belief?

what?

So confused.

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And it does not say that Jesus was God.....you added that.

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You are kind of right. The biblical greek more or less says that God was the Word, and that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

http://biblehub.com/text/john/1-1.htm

You were doing such a nice job making a good argument, but when you fail to concede a counter-point where you do not have the upper hand, it makes you look desperate.

And, finally, believing or disbelieving in the Trinity will not add provide on iota of wisdom on how you should live your life, and is not worth much more than interesting conversation.

Save your breath and go give a bottle of water to a homeless person. It is hot as hell out there.

I'm curious, you've made it abundantly clear what you believe Christ wasn't, what exactly do you believe Christ was?

Do you believe he in his preexistence?

Do you believe he's divine?

Same questions about the Holy Spirit.

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If you were honest you would admit that it is a manmade doctrine

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I hate to break this to you... But it's all man-made doctrine.

Said with such confidence!!!

Even if you believe that Jesus was just a simple man, you still have to admire the wisdom of his teachings.

It is hard to argue against the idea that most of the discussion about who Jesus was and pinning down his relationship to God is man trying to understand God.

His Father in heaven.

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Isn't that like George Burns' So help me, me oath?

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Not that jesus existed but the bible depicts a man who was either outright insane or who was just a narcissistic talking to himself. It's sad that people idolize his message of servitude, simplicity and slavery. Remember to keep your head down and do what the man tells you to do.

Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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If you were honest you would admit that it is a manmade doctrine

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I hate to break this to you... But it's all man-made doctrine.

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As opposed to plant or animal made doctrine? I've always found this statement amusing "look at you humans with your human made concepts, and all your humanity, what a bunch of idiots"

Are you can just do what society tells you to do, or evolution, or Darwin.

I think he is saying as opposed to a god made or supernatural power made doctrine.

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If you were honest you would admit that it is a manmade doctrine

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I hate to break this to you... But it's all man-made doctrine.

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As opposed to plant or animal made doctrine? I've always found this statement amusing "look at you humans with your human made concepts, and all your humanity, what a bunch of idiots"

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Clearly the point went over your head.

Unknown suggests Trinitarian doctrine is special in that it is man-made -- as opposed to the the doctrines he subscribes to, which are of course at the very least God-inspired.

It's just silly to act as if any of these doctrines were not man-made even if they did happen to be inspired by God. The Bible wasn't put together or written by God, but rather man, and should be treated as such.