http://cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/adults-raised-gay-couples-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court

The debate is far from over.

I read some of the amicus briefs which can be found at the link below.

These are adults who grew up with gay parents. I think their views should matter.

https://www.scribd.com/collections/5072086/Texas-5th-Circuit-Amicus-Briefs-for-Defendants

Is there literally an hour that goes by in any given day where you're not thinking about what gay people out in the world are doing?

Yes, there are crappy gay parents. Yes their views matter. I don't see why the existence of crappy gay parents is any more compelling a reason against gay marriage than crappy straight parents are a reason against straight parents.

Heck, you don't have to be married to be a parent.

Will you stop the onslaught!!!!!

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Is there literally an hour that goes by in any given day where you're not thinking about what gay people out in the world are doing?

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Seamaster's last post on this topic came on 1/22/2015. Since that time, there are a number of posts by him in the football forum:

• Back story on Josh Reynolds
• Who else is tired of recruiting?
• Manifesto (This one was actually started by him!)

He did pop back into R&P the other day to discuss crazy things famous religious people have said.

So... to answer your question, Beer Baron, Seamaster does think about things other than what gay people out in the world are doing (that is of course assuming that Josh Reynolds, all the recruits, and the atheists are not gay).

What I find troubling is that the pro SSM crowd obviously wants dissent to just go away. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

Sorry BB, case is not closed. Read the amicus briefs I linked BB. It might enlighten you.

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What I find troubling is that the pro SSM crowd obviously wants dissent to just go away. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

Sorry BB, case is not closed. Read the amicus briefs I linked BB. It might enlighten you.

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I don't want you silenced. Your kind are winning people to my side in droves.

Do you have an argument you are posing here?

What tatum said. I've said it before too. Please, don't stop talking about this.

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All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father.

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This doesn't make sense. The "harm" they are claiming has nothing to do with what word is associated to their parent's relationship. The "harm" they are claiming is due to not having a loving mother and a father. That would be the case whether it's called "marriage" or not.

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"Dad's partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk."

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Sounds like just a bad father. But, this is an adult making this claim as an argument against legal recognition of gay marriage. All those things they listed occurred during a time when their parents weren't legally "married".

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"As children, we are not allowed to express our disagreement, pain and confusion," Stefanowicz explained. "Most adult children from gay households do not feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s). Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the children don't accept their parent's partner du jour."

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Does this person have any data or support for these claims? "Most" adult children from gay households? Really? Surely there's a study on that. Then again, fear of expressing disagreement or loss of inheritance over refusal to accept a parent's partner is something you see in heterosexual relationships as well. I certainly know that I was afraid to voice disagreement or confusion with my dad growing up.

I think most would agree that having a loving mother and father is the ideal setting to raise a child. To use experiences that occurred prior to legal SSM as an indictment against SSM seems like a stretch. The experiences would have likely been the same, whether or not the relationship was ever recognized by the state as a "marriage".

In response to your "point," if these people are adults, then virtually all of their parents would have been unable to marry each other during their childhoods. So any argument they may be making is really against gay couples adopting, not whether they should be allowed to marry.

If you want to use this to support banning gay people from adopting, by all means go ahead. Should gay people not be allowed to raise children?

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In response to your "point," if these people are adults, then virtually all of their parents would have been unable to marry each other during their childhoods. So any argument they may be making is really against gay couples adopting, not whether they should be allowed to marry.

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Exactly.

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What I find troubling is that the pro SSM crowd obviously wants dissent to just go away. Case closed. Nothing to see here.

Sorry BB, case is not closed. Read the amicus briefs I linked BB. It might enlighten you.

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I don't want the dissent to go away. I just want the dissenters to present new arguments that haven't been defeated time and time again.

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"Dad's partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk."

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So if I trot out an adult who was exposed to overtly sexual activities by their straight parents, can we use that as a reason to keep all loving straight couples from marrying each other? Or does this only work against The Gays?

Nm

The argument here seems to be I had bad parents who were gay so don't allow gay marriage.

The exact same argument, to the extent it can be called an argument, can be made against straight marriage.

It's just a woeful argument.

Nm

Being bad parents should have nothing to do with the gay marriage issue. Deal with it separately.

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The exact same argument, to the extent it can be called an argument, can be made against straight marriage.

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Exactly. Prisons are full of people that had straight parents.

But, in all seriousness, I'm super pumped that there's another SSM thread on the board.

BB, RetiredAg, Seamaster...moth to a flame.

Does Seamaster really count as a moth in that analogy since he's the one starting the thread 95% of the time? Wouldn't that make him the flame?

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In response to your "point," if these people are adults, then virtually all of their parents would have been unable to marry each other during their childhoods. So any argument they may be making is really against gay couples adopting, not whether they should be allowed to marry.

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You miss the point. The point is that being raised without a mother and father screwed these people up.

And, its not just adopting. Its the test tube baby culture prevelent in gay families. Those are also discussed in the amicus briefs. Read Ms Faust's brief.

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The point is that being raised without a mother and father screwed these people up.

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But that is a different issue than SSM. There are countless heterosexual people raising children with only one parent.

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"When we institutionalize same-sex marriage," Faust writes, "we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. In doing so, we ignore the true nature of the outcropping of marriage."

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These households exist whether the relationship is defined as "marriage" or not. The harm they are claiming has nothing to do with the label given to their parents relationship.

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Does Seamaster really count as a moth in that analogy since he's the one starting the thread 95% of the time? Wouldn't that make him the flame?

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Sure

One point: I don't think this is relevant to gay marriage. But I do think it's instructive on parenting. I won't say these kids/families are representative. I will say you can love your kids and provide for them and be a bad parent. And this shows you how.

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You miss the point. The point is that being raised without a mother and father screwed these people up.

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Quite frankly, you have no idea if that's what screwed these people up. Also, why do you continue to ignore people who are "screwed up" and had both a mother and a father? Why don't their opinions count toward preventing straight couples from marrying?

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And, its not just adopting. Its the test tube baby culture prevelent in gay families.

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Then your issue is with in vitro, not with gay marriage. I can go out and have a baby this way right this second, and the state doesn't recognize my relationship at all. They're totally separate issues.

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"Dad's partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk."

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So if I trot out an adult who was exposed to overtly sexual activities by their straight parents, can we use that as a reason to keep all loving straight couples from marrying each other? Or does this only work against The Gays?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2053381/Shia-LaBeoufs-father-Jeffrey-registered-sex-offender-jailed-attempted-rape.html
Case in point. Shia Lebeouf's father is a registered sex offender and Shia told interviewers a while back that he used to watch his parents have sex and do drugs all the time. Look what a screw up he is. Let's not only ban straight marriage, let's ban procreation altogether!

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Quite frankly, you have no idea if that's what screwed these people up

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No, but they do and they write about it in their briefings to the court.

Parents of all stripes load their kids down with crap. I don't know that any of us have done enough to know what demographic is the worst.

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Quite frankly, you have no idea if that's what screwed these people up

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No, but they do and they write about it in their briefings to the court.

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But what does that have to do with SSM? The people that raised them weren't married. You're taking an argument against allowing single people or gay people the ability to raise a child, and attempting to apply it to the SSM debate. It makes no sense.

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The people that raised them weren't married.

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This. If you want to use these people as a reason to ban gays from adopting, fine, but that's a different debate. The fact of the matter is there was no gay marriage in these peoples' lives, so gay marriage couldn't have ruined their lives. You might as well say leprechauns or the Ghost of Christmas Past screwed them up.

Gays hate that they can't have children. They try to mimic it, but nothing comes close to the real thing. I understand if they feel left out and lash out at society for calling a spade a spade.

Never mind not worth it.

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But what does that have to do with SSM?

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Read the briefs and educate yourself.

It has everything to do with gay 'marriage.'

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But what does that have to do with SSM?

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Read the briefs and educate yourself.

It has everything to do with gay 'marriage.'

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Were any of the parents mentioned in the briefs legally married? It's like someone saying that they were screwed up by their single mom and her live-in boyfriend, so therefore straight people shouldn't be allowed to marry.