quote:I'm saying there is a lot of supernatural stuff in the Bible. Some of it was Jesus doing supernatural things, some of it wasn't. It just strikes me as odd to criticize one sect's belief in additional supernatural stuff when your religion also has a lot of that same stuff in it. If you want to find something to critique in Mormonism there is certainly plenty of there to go after without attacking an aspect that generally speaking your own faith shares with theirs.
So are you saying Jesus is a fictional
character like Thor?
There is a lot of historical evidence for Jesus, Thor not so much.
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There is a lot of historical evidence for Jesus, Thor not so much.
quote:Kurt,
When you say long term, do you mean to say a length of time exceeding my life span? I do not have God in my life, but I feel very happy and fortunate with my life and my family.
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Read this today- it is so true. Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness makes for pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God make for despair. Knowing Jesus Christ strikes the balance because he shows us both God and our own wretchedness.
I was the first one listed above- pride. I used to think to myself. I am a great guy, I am such a good person- I don't muder, steal millions of dollars like those folks on TV. Then one day I truly looked at myself and found I myself was a liar, thief and a murder of other people character (all the little things that I used to given myself a pass on). The reason I was blind is I was comparing myself to others in the world. I used to think- yes I stole but it was just a little, yes I lied but it is no big deal, everybody does it.
One of my happiest days was to finally get it and understand, that I do need saving, that I am a sinful man. My favorite bible verse: Luke 18: 13 O God be Merciful to Me a sinner
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You're flat out wrong. There are many non-religious people and religious people who worship the wrong God who are happy, healthy and live meaningful lives.
quote:What do you mean by this response? Is it a joke or something else?quote:
Original Sin is added. It's not a part of our nature.
It's apparent who DOES and who DOES NOT have children.
quote:No. He means literal other gods.quote:
You're flat out wrong. There are many non-religious people and religious people who worship the wrong God who are happy, healthy and live meaningful lives.
John, Please elaborate what you mean by the wrong God? Do you mean they worship- power, money, fame?
quote:quote:I guess I don't. And I don't see what point you're trying to make by quoting me above, either. If we lived in a country full of Thor followers, and the mainstream Thor followers were making fun of a minority Thorist sect's supernatural beliefs that fall outside the mainstream's supernatural beliefs, my point would stand. How would the minority sect's weird supernatural stuff be any weirder than the mainstream sects's weird supernatural stuff?
You've also failed to comprehend my opinion.
And again, if Thor were the focus of so much societal/legal discourse as Christianity is, the same people who appear on these threads about Jesus would be saying the same things on the "here's why you need Thor" threads. It's a false equivalency because such threads don't exist.
quote:Nice fake apology. To answer your questions anyway, in addition to what 7thGen said (which pretty much nailed it), once again: in the grand scheme of things I find your god to be just as relevant as any other. HOWEVER, as an American living in the United States in the year 2014, your god carries a particular relevance to the world in which I live. As I've stated dozens of times, if we were posting on an India A&M board I'd be saying the same thing about Hindu gods. If we were posting on a Peru A&M board 600 years ago I'd be talking about Inca ones.
My apologies then. I believed someone of your intellect would find a thread about why we need God and Jesus in our lives about as relevant as why we might need any other supernatural beings.
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I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.
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I don't think children are wicked in any sense. They just have to learn that doing whatever they want whenever they want isn't going to work in society.
quote:What a Debbie Downer outlook on humanity. People on both an individual and collective level have a whole spectrum of natural impulses that are both positive and negative toward others.
Disobedience, selfishness, and sin has been the only thing we have ever experience from birth to the point in which we call it nature as we have never known anything different.
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Kurt,
1) Glad you picked up on that I specifically said Long Term for the following reasons. We are all on different spiritual timelines. Sometimes it takes time (months, years, decades) for us to finally get it (what God calls us to do) and even then some of us never do get it. Example- when an alcoholic starts drinking- it is great in the beginning (he thinks there is no problems), it is only when he hits rock bottom that he realizes his error (we have to see the Long Term results). Another Example- just look at recent Bill Cosby scandal or the Catholic Church Sex abuse scandals- these things took decades to come light.
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2) A Well know bible verse is to build your house on rock, for when the storm comes your house will not be washed away. IF you have weak foundation (built on sand) it washes away. All of us will be tested in our life with storms (challenges). When you go it alone- with out God, it is not going to be pretty. See Well known Footprints Prayer/Poem- https://www.google.com/search?q=footprints&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=j2tzVP2pIMqogwTK_oLQDA&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=775#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=9uhtxmt3dFeFDM%253A%3BqEVdoS9WY0C48M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fuploads%252Fimage%252Fpics%252520for%252520website%252FFOOTPRINTS%252520WEBPAGE.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fministry%252Ffootprints%3B1393%3B1004
. . . .
Kurt, I sincerely hope it works out for you, especially when the storm hits your life, as it hits all of us.
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However Gods standard from our perspective is outrageously different and the fact that you do have to train them not to do what they is what I believe is evidence of a sin nature. Disobedience, selfishness, and sin has been the only thing we have ever experience from birth to the point in which we call it nature as we have never known anything different.
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What a Debbie Downer outlook on humanity. People on both an individual and collective level have a whole spectrum of natural impulses that are both positive and negative toward others.
quote:Agreed. I just disagree with Dirt Diver's premise altogether. Even if you create some system to "save" people from being "inherently wretched," you're still being a Debbie Downer for looking at a little kid and finding them inherently wretched and sinful in the first place. Even very young children have capacity for good qualities like love and empathy. Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.
I disagree that a child acting in base level self-interest (selfishness, lying, or disobeying) is an example of a "sin" nature. a child who does these things is acting out of drives tied to survival and advancement. taken at face value, that is exactly how you'd expect an entity to act not yet taught or convinced that acting otherwise is actually in their best interest. it's not a matter of being wicked, they just don't yet see the value in acting in ways that are NOT completely self-interested.
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It seems, by this analogy, that a person who knew God would not be in a wretched state, yet this is exactly what the original quote asks us to do. You contend that we must acknowledge our own wretchedness . . . . an inherent and inescapable wretchedness we are born with and that not even knowing God can cure. It seems 'at odds' to me to believe oneself to be born wretched and sinful and yet deserving or entitled to ask for forgiveness and love / enter the kingdom of Heaven.
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My rock is not God, it is my family and friends. I do not feel alone.
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Kurt,
Since you have picked up on the loving Father concept. Think of the orignial quote this way. Think of the perfect Role model who for us is (God- Jesus) now try to be like them. As you admire your great role model, as you strive to be like them, you realize how much you need to change, how much you need to improve, so you can be like them. Strive to give yourself away completely, strive for selfless love (humility).
quote:Jesus doesn't deny this. He even uses this example as showing how much greater God is.quote:
Even very young children have capacity for good qualities like love and empathy. Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.
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I disagree that a child acting in base level self-interest (selfishness, lying, or disobeying) is an example of a "sin" nature. a child who does these things is acting out of drives tied to survival and advancement. taken at face value, that is exactly how you'd expect an entity to act not yet taught or convinced that acting otherwise is actually in their best interest. it's not a matter of being wicked, they just don't yet see the value in acting in ways that are NOT completely self-interested.
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My rock is not God, it is my family and friends. I do not feel alone.
Kurt,
Yes because you are experiencing Love. God=Love . What is interesting is when your kids move on ( they grow up and leave the house resulting in an empty house) and friends move or die off. At some point you will come to realize it is really just you and God.
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Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.
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The world around us is abundant proof man is fallen and in desperate need of a savior. Thankfully Jesus paid the ultimate price to be that savior.