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Religion and War...a study...
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Last: 10 yr ago by booboo91
Thank you, Sandy.
That's a pretty facile approach to the topic. Yes, religion is not a constant repository of violence like the New Athiests contend. However, a good deal of the violence in human history came from rivalries created or sustained by religious differences. And, for the record, Hitler used Christianity to motivate Germany and Tojo used emperor worship to motivate Japan.
quote:
That's a pretty facile approach to the topic.
I've never seen anything from carm that wasn't facile or down right stupid. It's where christian apologetics go to die.
This is not a "carm" original observation. There have been multiple articles that have made the same correct observation based on the Encyclopedia of Wars.
The New Atheists needs to eat some crow on this issue. They are the ones who have been facile.
The New Atheists needs to eat some crow on this issue. They are the ones who have been facile.
I don't agree with the religion is the cause of most wars stuff, but this treatment is hardly thoughtful.
I don't trust anything from a religious site. 7th and Sapper make good points. I would like to see a more in depth independent study.
I don't even know what Carm is, but I love the way you guys embrace the ad hominem.
If you pay attention, the data is not even from Carm. It's from the Encyclopedia of Wars - a publication I know nothing about.
If you pay attention, the data is not even from Carm. It's from the Encyclopedia of Wars - a publication I know nothing about.
Who's embracing an ad hominem? We are saying the depth of analysis is incredibly facile. They're looking at the proximate cause and assigning blame based on that.
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I don't even know what Carm is, but I love the way you guys embrace the ad hominem.
If you pay attention, the data is not even from Carm. It's from the Encyclopedia of Wars - a publication I know nothing about.
Well, I think the topic of why people kill each other so much is a lovely one for R&P regardless of where the pie chart comes from....
Having said that, I would like to see the methodology used in making said pie chart. What counts as a religious war?
Does the main aim of both sides have to be converting the other?
What if only one side is motivated to convert the other?
Is it enough if the sides have different religions and the winner will impose theirs on the loser even if that wasn't that motivating cause of the war?
If one or both sides attack or destroy religious sites, is that motivated by religion, or just an attack on your opponents culture, or just the collateral damage of war?
What about Pakistan and India? Their wars are over territorial disputes, but if they were all of the same religion there would be no Pakistan, just a united India not fighting wars with its neighbor.
Things get multifaceted and complex quickly. Take Hitler. He certainly wasn't a Christian, but the Nazis did use Christianity as part of their propaganda. Hitler himself was a mystic. Does that count as a religion? Say he was motivated to war by the belief that he was a god meant to rule the world. I don't know that he was, but he wouldn't be much different than lots of Pharaohs and Emperors if that was the case. And personality cults run the gamut from Charles Manson to Pharaoh believing he was Ra--which are religions and which are not? And just to finish with Hitler, how can a war in which one of the main motivations was to exterminate an entire religion not have a religious component?
Still if you ask me what the cause of war is, I would say that one factor is the main motivation behind 99.99% . Territory. Gaining land, defending land, either for its strategic value or just for its resources is why wars are waged. Ideology may lead to war, but inevitably the guy with the wrong philosophy also just happens to be sitting on a piece of land you would like.
But that's a little simplistic too. If you read history (or perhaps compile an encyclopedia of wars) it looks that way, because that is the motivation of Kings, Emperors, Pharaohs, and Generals. Is that really the motivation that matters? Without armies there are no wars, and without soldiers there are no armies. So maybe the question should be about the guys carrying the guns. Why are they killing each other? What motivates them? Is it a belief that god is on their side? That their cause is morally just, and that the heavens would have them prevail?
Look at the rhetoric from the American civil war. No one would argue that it was a religious war, but both sides preached to their troops that god was in fact supporting them. Or the Japanese in WWII. They regarded their emperor as a god, and fought for him.
I don't believe that religion is the source of most of the misery on earth--or whatever the quote is. Religion can be an incredible motivator for individuals and masses though, and a belief in divine help or eternal reward can drive men to incredible acts. Some of them incredibly awful.
quote:It's no more facile then the original topic that spawned this "debate" in the first place.
That's a pretty facile approach to the topic.
I think that's a fairly even approach to the topic, amercer. I think this :
quote:Is close, although I would replace "territory" with a more general "economics." Wars are fought to dictate resource control. Even "religious wars" are really, ultimately, fought for resource control. Scarcity is the name of the game, as it generally is for most things.
Still if you ask me what the cause of war is, I would say that one factor is the main motivation behind 99.99% . Territory. Gaining land, defending land, either for its strategic value or just for its resources is why wars are waged. Ideology may lead to war, but inevitably the guy with the wrong philosophy also just happens to be sitting on a piece of land you would like.
quote:
I think that's a fairly even approach to the topic, amercer. I think this :
quote:Is close, although I would replace "territory" with a more general "economics." Wars are fought to dictate resource control. Even "religious wars" are really, ultimately, fought for resource control. Scarcity is the name of the game, as it generally is for most things.
Still if you ask me what the cause of war is, I would say that one factor is the main motivation behind 99.99% . Territory. Gaining land, defending land, either for its strategic value or just for its resources is why wars are waged. Ideology may lead to war, but inevitably the guy with the wrong philosophy also just happens to be sitting on a piece of land you would like.
"Take up the sword and die by the sword." Jesus
A violent Chrstianity may be religion but it's not Jesus.
A violent Chrstianity may be religion but it's not Jesus.
quote:
I think that's a fairly even approach to the topic, amercer. I think this :
quote:Is close, although I would replace "territory" with a more general "economics." Wars are fought to dictate resource control. Even "religious wars" are really, ultimately, fought for resource control. Scarcity is the name of the game, as it generally is for most things.
Still if you ask me what the cause of war is, I would say that one factor is the main motivation behind 99.99% . Territory. Gaining land, defending land, either for its strategic value or just for its resources is why wars are waged. Ideology may lead to war, but inevitably the guy with the wrong philosophy also just happens to be sitting on a piece of land you would like.
Ha! Article uses the word 'hatetheism' . . . honestly have never heard that one before.
Nationalism is more of a threat than religion when it comes to war.
quote:
I don't believe that religion is the source of most of the misery on earth--or whatever the quote is. Religion can be an incredible motivator for individuals and masses though, and a belief in divine help or eternal reward can drive men to incredible acts. Some of them incredibly awful.
People grab power by whatever means they can, so religion is defintely used by some to grab power. I think an honest evaluation is to look at active participants in their faith. How often are they going to church? Hitler was raised by agnostic father and Active Catholic mother- but he did not practice his faith. Bill Maher on TV was raised by Jewish mother and Catholic father- but today he does not practice.
You need to Look at leaders who are active in their faith and then see the results. George H and W Bush are both active in their faith- was going into Iraq (2) times a religious war. Answer- No
quote:That's how war began. Our tribe is starving, so we'll kill your tribe and steal your food. Other motivations came later.
Scarcity is the name of the game, as it generally is for most things.
The criteria to categorize something as a "religious war" is important and one that will be different depending on what you are sympathetic to. Take the conquest of Canaan, for example. One most would point to and say definitely a religious war. But take amercer's criteria:
Does the main aim of both sides have to be converting the other? There was no aim to convert the Canaanites.
What if only one side is motivated to convert the other? Neither side was motivated to convert the other.
Is it enough if the sides have different religions and the winner will impose theirs on the loser even if that wasn't that motivating cause of the war? The Jews were to eliminate the Canaanites. There would be no post-war conversion.
If one or both sides attack or destroy religious sites, is that motivated by religion, or just an attack on your opponents culture, or just the collateral damage of war? They were to destroy everything.
The Jews were not trying to convert the inhabitants by the sword. They were taking land that was rightfully theirs. So even this "obvious" religious war cannot even be categorized as such.
Does the main aim of both sides have to be converting the other? There was no aim to convert the Canaanites.
What if only one side is motivated to convert the other? Neither side was motivated to convert the other.
Is it enough if the sides have different religions and the winner will impose theirs on the loser even if that wasn't that motivating cause of the war? The Jews were to eliminate the Canaanites. There would be no post-war conversion.
If one or both sides attack or destroy religious sites, is that motivated by religion, or just an attack on your opponents culture, or just the collateral damage of war? They were to destroy everything.
The Jews were not trying to convert the inhabitants by the sword. They were taking land that was rightfully theirs. So even this "obvious" religious war cannot even be categorized as such.
It's going to be tough to categorize a war as non-religious when it was entirely commanded by God himself.
The world is complex, there are not clear black and white answers. I think we do a disservice by overlooking many of the details when we perform our simplistic Monday morning quarterbacking assessment of history.
Example the numerous battles with the American Indians was not as clear cut as Hollywood wants you to think it was. The truth is there were good, ok and bad Indians. The Indians were exhibiting the typical human behavior. It ended up being a battle of cultures and the Indians lost.
In the same way the Crusades get over simplified and overblown- many overlook that Islam was aggressively conquering territory and killing folks. Yes it was a religious war, but it was primarily a battle of cultures.
Example the numerous battles with the American Indians was not as clear cut as Hollywood wants you to think it was. The truth is there were good, ok and bad Indians. The Indians were exhibiting the typical human behavior. It ended up being a battle of cultures and the Indians lost.
In the same way the Crusades get over simplified and overblown- many overlook that Islam was aggressively conquering territory and killing folks. Yes it was a religious war, but it was primarily a battle of cultures.
quote:You would first have to establish the criteria to categorize it as such.
It's going to be tough to categorize a war as non-religious when it was entirely commanded by God himself.
If you really think about it. In the OT Exodus You have thousands of Jews leaving Egypt, where are they going to go? There is desert around, there is only so much land that is sustainable. There is no Red Cross Shelters to take care of them.
Whereever they try to move, the neighbors will say- Keep moving, you can't stay here- Not in my backyard. (as was mentioned in OT when tribes would or would not let them pass through). It was kind of like the 70s movie " The Warriors" as they tried to make their way back home through the countless gangs in New York City.
Also find it interesting that when the Jews do finally reached the promised land (great symbolism) in one campaign they literally walk into already built homes and fully planted fields as God uses hornets to drive the previous inhabitants away from their land.
Whereever they try to move, the neighbors will say- Keep moving, you can't stay here- Not in my backyard. (as was mentioned in OT when tribes would or would not let them pass through). It was kind of like the 70s movie " The Warriors" as they tried to make their way back home through the countless gangs in New York City.
Also find it interesting that when the Jews do finally reached the promised land (great symbolism) in one campaign they literally walk into already built homes and fully planted fields as God uses hornets to drive the previous inhabitants away from their land.
If I could re-direct the question a bit -
Does religion prevent war?
There are countries whose people are highly influenced by religion and countries whose people are less influenced by religion. Is there a correlation between how religious a country is and how likely it is to engage in war, genocide, slavery, etc., even if it is not categorically a 'religious war' or 'religious action'?
I don't know the answer and don't have a particular agenda with it - but it may be another way of contemplating the question without the issue of defining what a religious war is.
Does religion prevent war?
There are countries whose people are highly influenced by religion and countries whose people are less influenced by religion. Is there a correlation between how religious a country is and how likely it is to engage in war, genocide, slavery, etc., even if it is not categorically a 'religious war' or 'religious action'?
I don't know the answer and don't have a particular agenda with it - but it may be another way of contemplating the question without the issue of defining what a religious war is.
Yes, there are stories of religious men going out and speaking to both enemies and invaders.
See Pope Leo & Attila who stopped his attack on Rome. See St. Francis speaking with Sultan of Egypt (Muslim) during the Crusades.
There are lots of folks who try and unify instead of divide us. The truth is God wants us together in community, loving one another and in peace. The devil wants to divide us, known as the great scatterer, the one who lies. The devil/ sin (I am speaking figuratively) wants us isolated and alone, in darkness. When you think about sin- when you look at porn, steal, lie, it is typically in secret. That is good indicator on the right thing to do, would I publically tell and do this in front of others.
See Pope Leo & Attila who stopped his attack on Rome. See St. Francis speaking with Sultan of Egypt (Muslim) during the Crusades.
There are lots of folks who try and unify instead of divide us. The truth is God wants us together in community, loving one another and in peace. The devil wants to divide us, known as the great scatterer, the one who lies. The devil/ sin (I am speaking figuratively) wants us isolated and alone, in darkness. When you think about sin- when you look at porn, steal, lie, it is typically in secret. That is good indicator on the right thing to do, would I publically tell and do this in front of others.
quote:
Yes, there are stories of religious men going out and speaking to both enemies and invaders.
See Pope Leo & Attila who stopped his attack on Rome. See St. Francis speaking with Sultan of Egypt (Muslim) during the Crusades.
There are lots of folks who try and unify instead of divide us. The truth is God wants us together in community, loving one another and in peace. The devil wants to divide us, known as the great scatterer, the one who lies. The devil/ sin (I am speaking figuratively) wants us isolated and alone, in darkness. When you think about sin- when you look at porn, steal, lie, it is typically in secret. That is good indicator on the right thing to do, would I publically tell and do this in front of others.
God of the OT doesn't jive with what you said.
quote:Nice. We are just another part of the Animal Kingdom. Nothing special about us besides level of self awareness.
I think that's a fairly even approach to the topic, amercer. I think this :
quote:Is close, although I would replace "territory" with a more general "economics." Wars are fought to dictate resource control. Even "religious wars" are really, ultimately, fought for resource control. Scarcity is the name of the game, as it generally is for most things.
Still if you ask me what the cause of war is, I would say that one factor is the main motivation behind 99.99% . Territory. Gaining land, defending land, either for its strategic value or just for its resources is why wars are waged. Ideology may lead to war, but inevitably the guy with the wrong philosophy also just happens to be sitting on a piece of land you would like.
quote:
God of the OT doesn't jive with what you said
Bobo, Sorry you keep missing it. The same message is given in the OT as in NT. God calls us to be obedient and follow his ways (see verse below), if not there are consequences for our actions. We are called to repent and turn away from evil. Exact same message as in NT. Great example is the story of Jonah when he is preaching to the evil city of Nineveh (not Jewish) and guess what ! they Repent- something God's chosen people (the Jews) fail to do.
There are countless verses in OT of what is expected of us:
Micah 6 6 :8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
OT Verse- entire psalm on unity of God's people - Psalm 133 How good and how pleasant it is, when brothersdwell together as one! Like fine oil on the head,running down upon the beard, Upon the beard of Aaron, upon the collar of his robe. Like dewof Hermoncoming down upon the mountains of Zion.There the LORD has decreed a blessing, life for evermore!
Explanation - A benediction over a peaceful community, most probably the people Israel, but appropriate too for Israelite families. The history of Israel, whether of its ancestors in the Book of Genesis or of later periods, was a history of distinct groups struggling to live in unity. Here that unity is declared blessed, like the holy oils upon the priest Aaron or the dew of the rainless summer that waters the crops.
Brothers: in biblical Hebrew this word includes both the male and female members of a group united by blood relationships or by shared experiences and values. In this Psalm, the term could be applied most appropriately to the people of Israel, those privileged by God to be his chosen children.
When you couple this with NT and embracing of gentils you see same message as in book of Acts of the Apostles- Unified in God's love. Brothers in Christ!
Explanation - A benediction over a peaceful community, most probably the people Israel, but appropriate too for Israelite families. The history of Israel, whether of its ancestors in the Book of Genesis or of later periods, was a history of distinct groups struggling to live in unity. Here that unity is declared blessed, like the holy oils upon the priest Aaron or the dew of the rainless summer that waters the crops.
Brothers: in biblical Hebrew this word includes both the male and female members of a group united by blood relationships or by shared experiences and values. In this Psalm, the term could be applied most appropriately to the people of Israel, those privileged by God to be his chosen children.
When you couple this with NT and embracing of gentils you see same message as in book of Acts of the Apostles- Unified in God's love. Brothers in Christ!
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