What the gay 'marriage' people say would not happen is happening

11,489 Views | 297 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by Beer Baron
The Hefty Lefty
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AG
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are so very fortunate to live without theocracy in most arenas. You still seem to want to promote it the specific case of SSM. Why not outlaw pride or jealousy? Is it because you struggle with those sins and not homosexuality?


Friend the world is sprinting towards a radical theocracy unlike anything you can image. It won't be pretty, and I don't plan to be here.

Again, all are free to marry. I pray I don't struggle from pride or jealousy or any besetting sin, as this miserable wretch was set free from the bondage of inequity through the liberating blood of Jesus Christ. I examine myself daily (as Paul commanded in 2 Corinthians 13:5) and ask God to search my heart ad did David in Psalm 139:23. I acknowledge my transgressions and with a heart of repentance ask for forgiveness, not force others to endorse it under the threat of government intervention.
Macarthur
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I am absolutely not saying gays have no business being in the church. Just saying that gay people should not be surprised when the church does not condone their lifestyle. Just as the church wouldn't condone people viewing pornography, pre marital sex, and a slew of other things.

ETA: I can see how my OP could be interpreted that I was saying gays aren't welcomed to church. I didn't mean to imply that.

Ok, fair enough. BB's post says exactly what I would.




Woody2006
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Friend the world is sprinting towards a radical theocracy unlike anything you can image. It won't be pretty, and I don't plan to be here.


I hope you are wrong as this is my personal nightmare.

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I acknowledge my transgressions and with a heart of repentance ask for forgiveness, not force others to endorse it under the threat of government intervention..


So you would agree with Beer Baron's premise earlier that you would be fine with religious affiliation no longer being a protected class?
diehard03
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Jude 7 is "weak"? Is John 1 a farce? If Jesus (the Living Word in John 1, who's ALWAYS been) is okay wiyh homosexuality, why didn't he speak up as his FATHER was raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah?

Sapper might now want to bring it up, but it bears another trip down the rabbit hole. If you think homosexuality is icky, then its easy to lean against S&G as against homosexuality.

However, most people can see that S&G wasn't about monogamous homosexuality either.
Dad-O-Lot
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Sodom & Gommorah

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They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we
may have intimacies with them." Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, he said, "I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don't do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof." They replied, "Stand back! This fellow," they sneered, "came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give
orders! We'll treat you worse than them!" With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door. But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door; at the same time they struck the men at the entrance of the house, one and all, with such a
blinding light that they were utterly unable to reach the doorway. Then the angels said to Lot: "Who else belongs to you here? Your sons (sons-in-law) and your daughters and all who belong to you in the city - take them away from it! We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those in the city is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."


Interpret this as you will.
Amazing Moves
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I was watching a documentary about what happened at S & G. Scientists have discovered mineral deposits that suggest that a meteor struck in that area causing a catastrophic event that was world wide. The initial blast sent flaming debris all over several cities in the region. They suggest that this was obviously observed and then attributed to God. Then the legend was created.
SapperAg
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There's conflicting accounts centered around a couple of villages that some ascribe to be Sodom and Gomorrah. Whatever floats your boat whether they existed or not.

But once again, traditional rabbinic and Talmudic sources pin the destruction on the failure to uphold basic principles of civilization. To include raping and murdering visitors. As most folks are willing to admit, rape is not the same thing as homosexual sex.
JimLeahy
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Sodom & Gommorah

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They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we
may have intimacies with them." Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, he said, "I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don't do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof." They replied, "Stand back! This fellow," they sneered, "came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give
orders! We'll treat you worse than them!" With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door. But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door; at the same time they struck the men at the entrance of the house, one and all, with such a
blinding light that they were utterly unable to reach the doorway. Then the angels said to Lot: "Who else belongs to you here? Your sons (sons-in-law) and your daughters and all who belong to you in the city - take them away from it! We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those in the city is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."


Interpret this as you will.


this is clearly not about homosexuality. it's about inter species intercourse. angels and humans aren't supposed to bang.

If you see a dude trying to screw a male goat do you immediately call it homosexuality? No because that's stupid. So why do it when men want to bang angels?

Call it celestiality
The Hefty Lefty
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Jude's one chapter epistle destroys all the liberal theologian's attempts to discount the Bible's stance on homosexuality. Jude further warns of the lasciviousness these same antiChrists promote.
Wade_3
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Jude's one chapter epistle destroys all the liberal theologian's attempts to discount the Bible's stance on homosexuality. Jude further warns of the lasciviousness these same antiChrists promote.

There are also verses that discuss the evils of shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics but I don't see any Christians pushing legislation through Congress to ban those items.

Its ok to be a hypocrite, it's just sad when you don't realize what you are.
JimLeahy
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Jude


7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Do we've got immorality and perversion. Rape and blow jobs...



18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Hrs ranting about natural instincts and we all know homosexuality isn't natural. Clearly he's talking about stuff like heterosexuality.


What's hilarious about stuff like this is it's a primitive internet rant. There is no time on earth a believer could read it and say that right now isn't the time of "scoffers."

I assume Tampa disagree because kjv is the only correct bible
The Hefty Lefty
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Jude's one chapter epistle destroys all the liberal theologian's attempts to discount the Bible's stance on homosexuality. Jude further warns of the lasciviousness these same antiChrists promote.

There are also verses that discuss the evils of shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics but I don't see any Christians pushing legislation through Congress to ban those items.

Its ok to be a hypocrite, it's just sad when you don't realize what you are.
Well, if you know anyone still alive from the Levitical priesthood that's eating shrimp and mixing fabrics - shame on them! As for the rest of us that rightly divide the word and are entered into the covenant of grace (Hebrews 8:6), we are not trying to get sexual deviancy banned by Congress. I'm just tired of seeing Christian businesses specifically targeted by antagonistic gay rights activists. I realize you're blinded from truth and tossed to and from by the changing whims of contemporary culture, but is it not the Biblephobes and God haters that are pushing for legislation to fine Christians, subpoena pastors, and send those of disagreeing opinions to indoctrination camps?
SapperAg
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Remember the simpler times when gays were arrested for the act of being gay and selling liquor on Sunday would get you arrested? I miss having Christians decide our laws and our freedoms for us. Those were clearly better times.
Beer Baron
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AG
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but is it not the Biblephobes and God haters that are pushing for legislation to fine Christians,

Why do you people repeatedly ignore the fact that these very same laws also protect Christians and would fine anyone who discriminated against them on that basis?

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subpoena pastors,

I agree the Houston subpoenas were probably overbroad, but the city didn't just go out and randomly subpoena people. The pastors in question initiated the lawsuit.

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and send those of disagreeing opinions to indoctrination camps?
Jesus Christ you people are ridiculous.
Amazing Moves
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Indoctrination camps? The audacity..

Like Sunday school and vacation bible school.
The Hefty Lefty
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quote:
Jude


7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Do we've got immorality and perversion. Rape and blow jobs...



18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Hrs ranting about natural instincts and we all know homosexuality isn't natural. Clearly he's talking about stuff like heterosexuality.


What's hilarious about stuff like this is it's a primitive internet rant. There is no time on earth a believer could read it and say that right now isn't the time of "scoffers."

I assume Tampa disagree because kjv is the only correct bible

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. -Jude 7

Jim (did you used to be Tyson?), Jude's epistle is written to the church age (which began @ Pentecost). Jude was written within 3-4 decades of the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. The early church already had Gnostic doctrines creeping in and other false prophets promoting antinomianism. While Paul's epistles are profitable to all saints, he wrote to specific churches (Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, etc.) and specific disciples like Titus and Timothy, Jude's writing is a general epistle to ALL believers to contend for the faith.

I do believe the "timer" started at Pentecost, but I believe the last remaining prophecy was that of the restored Fig Tree (May 14, 1948). So until then, there was still a final prophecy to be fulfilled until the return of the Son of Man. Jesus Christ could certainly tarry, but prophetically speaking nothing else needs to take place for HIM to return for the saints.


JimLeahy
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Strange flesh. ... like going after angels.

Who the hell is Tyson

the rest just reinforces my point
The Hefty Lefty
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AG
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I agree the Houston subpoenas were probably overbroad, but the city didn't just go out and randomly subpoena people. The pastors in question initiated the lawsuit.

BB, NONE of the 5 pastors issued subpoenas are party to the lawsuit.
JimLeahy
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Tampa do you exclusively read kjv?
JimLeahy
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quote:
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Jude's one chapter epistle destroys all the liberal theologian's attempts to discount the Bible's stance on homosexuality. Jude further warns of the lasciviousness these same antiChrists promote.

There are also verses that discuss the evils of shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics but I don't see any Christians pushing legislation through Congress to ban those items.

Its ok to be a hypocrite, it's just sad when you don't realize what you are.
Well, if you know anyone still alive from the Levitical priesthood that's eating shrimp and mixing fabrics - shame on them! As for the rest of us that rightly divide the word and are entered into the covenant of grace (Hebrews 8:6), we are not trying to get sexual deviancy banned by Congress. I'm just tired of seeing Christian businesses specifically targeted by antagonistic gay rights activists. I realize you're blinded from truth and tossed to and from by the changing whims of contemporary culture, but is it not the Biblephobes and God haters that are pushing for legislation to fine Christians, subpoena pastors, and send those of disagreeing opinions to indoctrination camps?


Yet the same law prevents me from denying you service and I would deny you specifically in a heart beat due to your beliefs.
Beer Baron
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I agree the Houston subpoenas were probably overbroad, but the city didn't just go out and randomly subpoena people. The pastors in question initiated the lawsuit.

BB, NONE of the 5 pastors issued subpoenas are party to the lawsuit.
You're correct. They were just involved in the repeal effort apparently. That's my bad.

That said, even if the subpoenas had been limited to things directly related to the repeal campaign there would be complaining, because churches should apparently be exempt from pretty much everything.
Beer Baron
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So I guess no one is going to answer my question about whether they'd support removing religion from the list of protected classes in public accommodation laws?
The Hefty Lefty
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Strange flesh. ... like going after angels.

Who the hell is Tyson

the rest just reinforces my point
Nope, the sarx / strange flesh isn't "angel skin". It's that which is "contrary to nature". Do you think angel sex was a common occurrence? You must. Otherwise, why would 2 angels come in the form of men to WARN Lot of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? The city was going to be destroyed before the angels arrived. God just sent them to remove Lot and his family, due to the intercessory prayer of Abraham.
The Hefty Lefty
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AG
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You're correct. They were just involved in the repeal effort apparently. That's my bad.



That said, even if the subpoenas had been limited to things directly related to the repeal campaign there would be complaining, because churches should apparently be exempt from pretty much everything.

BB, are you supporting Mayor Parker's subpoenas? I realize you don't like fundamental Christianity because it preaches against some things that hit home (as it did for me too before I was saved). Nonetheless, should not a church preach on the fundamentals of their faith within their own gathering? I abhor Islam, but they have the right to meet in their mosque and worship freely.
JimLeahy
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quote:
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Strange flesh. ... like going after angels.

Who the hell is Tyson

the rest just reinforces my point
Nope, the sarx / strange flesh isn't "angel skin". It's that which is "contrary to nature". Do you think angel sex was a common occurrence? You must. Otherwise, why would 2 angels come in the form of men to WARN Lot of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? The city was going to be destroyed before the angels arrived. God just sent them to remove Lot and his family, due to the intercessory prayer of Abraham.


It's contrary to nature which sex with angels would be. ... but later it talks of natural impulses which I'm told homosexuality is not natural.

If you read the OT angel sex definitely is definitely there.

Then you claim Sodom and gomorrah are destroyed for homosexuality, and it was determined before angels came, but you use attempted Angel sex as the proof it was because of homosexuality.

How can you say it was already going to be destroyed then use adv event after it was to be destroyed to say it was due to homosexuality. It makes no sense at all.

Do you exclusively read kjv?
JimLeahy
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You're correct. They were just involved in the repeal effort apparently. That's my bad.



That said, even if the subpoenas had been limited to things directly related to the repeal campaign there would be complaining, because churches should apparently be exempt from pretty much everything.

BB, are you supporting Mayor Parker's subpoenas? I realize you don't like fundamental Christianity because it preaches against some things that hit home (as it did for me too before I was saved). Nonetheless, should not a church preach on the fundamentals of their faith within their own gathering? I abhor Islam, but they have the right to meet in their mosque and worship freely.


Do subpoenas stop them from preaching their faith?
Beer Baron
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BB, are you supporting Mayor Parker's subpoenas?

The revised ones, pertaining to the actual lawsuit. As much as you'd like a blanket exemption from everything for churches, they're subject to the same discovery rules as everyone else.

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I realize you don't like fundamental Christianity because it preaches against some things that hit home (as it did for me too before I was saved).
There are plenty of reasons to not be a fan of fundamentalism in any form without it touching on anything that hits home. Christians/Muslims/all the rest could wake up en masse tomorrow and declare that being gay is a-ok and I'd still think religion was a harmful, backwards institution.

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Nonetheless, should not a church preach on the fundamentals of their faith within their own gathering?

Absolutely they can. The shouldn't be able to be tax exempt while engaging in political campaigns. If they want to be politically active, pay taxes like the rest of us.

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I abhor Islam, but they have the right to meet in their mosque and worship freely.
I agree. And if they campaign from the pulpit they should have to pay taxes too.
The Hefty Lefty
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AG
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Do subpoenas stop them from preaching their faith?





No, genuine pastors called from God will preach the truth, regardless of the costs. Parker and the LGBT mafia were not expecting the recourse that followed. There are many non-believers that were appalled and concerned with her actions and attempts to abolish 1st amendment rights of others.
JimLeahy
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Do subpoenas stop them from preaching their faith?





No, genuine pastors called from God will preach the truth, regardless of the costs. Parker and the LGBT mafia were not expecting the recourse that followed. There are many non-believers that were appalled and concerned with her actions and attempts to abolish 1st amendment rights of others.


Has she tried to stop anybody from preaching? Has she forcibly stopped anybody?
Beer Baron
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No, genuine pastors called from God will preach the truth, regardless of the costs. Parker and the LGBT mafia were not expecting the recourse that followed. There are many non-believers that were appalled and concerned with her actions and attempts to abolish 1st amendment rights of others.
To be clear, the "cost" here, even if the subpoenas had been maintained and carried out, was they would have to provide a transcript of what they had said. Isn't the goal of a sermon to get the word out to as many people as you can? Don't a lot of big churches put that stuff online these days anyway? This sounds like the opposite of stopping. It's publicizing.
The Hefty Lefty
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AG
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I agree. And if they campaign from the pulpit they should have to pay taxes too.

Churches would be smart to consider the tax exemption status, as it might prolong their being targeted by the LGBT activists and liberal left. That being said, 501(c) organizations can absolutely speak on current events. They may not however specifically endorse a political candidate, nor fund a particular campaign.
Again though, none of the 5 pastors that received subpoenas violated the tax exempt restrictions. Parker's wide scope included speeches, writings, or sermons on gender identity or homosexuality.
The Hefty Lefty
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To be clear, the "cost" here, even if the subpoenas had been maintained and carried out, was they would have to provide a transcript of what they had said. Isn't the goal of a sermon to get the word out to as many people as you can? Don't a lot of big churches put that stuff online these days anyway? This sounds like the opposite of stopping. It's publicizing.

BB, I absolutely agree that the Genesis 50:20 rule is definitely in effect here!
Beer Baron
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Again though, none of the 5 pastors that received subpoenas violated the tax exempt restrictions.

You don't know that. That's the point of a subpoena.

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Parker's wide scope included speeches, writings, or sermons on gender identity or homosexuality.
And I agree the scope should have been narrowed, which it was. Overbroad discovery requests are very common.
The Hefty Lefty
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Has she tried to stop anybody from preaching? Has she forcibly stopped anybody?







She sought intimidation tactics and when it failed, she threw her our lawyers under the bus.
Beer Baron
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AG
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To be clear, the "cost" here, even if the subpoenas had been maintained and carried out, was they would have to provide a transcript of what they had said. Isn't the goal of a sermon to get the word out to as many people as you can? Don't a lot of big churches put that stuff online these days anyway? This sounds like the opposite of stopping. It's publicizing.

BB, I absolutely agree that the Genesis 50:20 rule is definitely in effect here!
Then you should probably stop lying by saying they were silenced or had their 1st Amendment rights violated.
 
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