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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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Do you realize how fast this store would be sued if they operated this way and actually refused service to christians? Don't act like gays are the only ones to use the legal system. Imagine the outrage that would pour out over the Anti-Christ grocery that refused to sell anything to you because of your faith.

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This. They'd be violating the very same law the people in the OP violated. While I have seen several people be consistent and say they'd favor doing away with such laws in their entirety, I've yet to see anyone say they'd favor the incremental step of removing religion alone from the list of protected classes.

I do love how Christians claim they'd be just fine with a business turning them away like this. I have a feeling the vast majority would not. We'd have a thread on here about anti-Christian persecution so fast everyone's heads would spin.

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That's a whole different topic and I don't want to derail the thread.

I will say that if the bible took the opposite stance and said heterosexuality was sinful and how entire cities were destroyed because of that behavior, I would do one of two things.

1.) question the bible or my INTERPRETATION of the bible.
2.) turn away from heterosexual behavior (wouldn't engage in homosexual behavior, just be single)

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FIFY

I don't believe this is a foregone conclusion that a solid, monogamous homosexual relationship is inherently sinful because of 2 guys or 2 girls.

It's funny how Christians explain away so many of things that affect them, but are somehow rigid on something that doesn't affect them. It's even weirder to see them claim religious freedom...from something that don't suffer from.

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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Do you realize how fast this store would be sued if they operated this way and actually refused service to christians? Don't act like gays are the only ones to use the legal system. Imagine the outrage that would pour out over the Anti-Christ grocery that refused to sell anything to you because of your faith.

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No in this example this store still provides services to everyone. I'm saying that just because this store is willing to provide me service doesn't mean I want to give them my business

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If it provides services to everyone I don't see how it's a comparable situation. If the businesses in question provided their services to everyone like your hypothetical one we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

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I do love how Christians claim they'd be just fine with a business turning them away like this. I have a feeling the vast majority would not.

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Most don't really understand markets and believe that every good/service has equal competition in close proximity.

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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Do you realize how fast this store would be sued if they operated this way and actually refused service to christians? Don't act like gays are the only ones to use the legal system. Imagine the outrage that would pour out over the Anti-Christ grocery that refused to sell anything to you because of your faith.

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No in this example this store still provides services to everyone. I'm saying that just because this store is willing to provide me service doesn't mean I want to give them my business

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Well the same is true for the Klu Klux Klamburger example. It isn't against the law to hate certain classes of people. It's nothing more than tribalism, and I wish people would get over it, but it's perfectly legal. What is illegal is refusing the same service to a protected class that you would provide everyone else.

If you want to say there should be no protected classes, then fine -- but remember all the ways in which you are protected and how that might change if these laws were not in place.

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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I wonder why one would even go down this path...as it is the complete opposite of the mission of God.

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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Do you realize how fast this store would be sued if they operated this way and actually refused service to christians? Don't act like gays are the only ones to use the legal system. Imagine the outrage that would pour out over the Anti-Christ grocery that refused to sell anything to you because of your faith.

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This. They'd be violating the very same law the people in the OP violated. While I have seen several people be consistent and say they'd favor doing away with such laws in their entirety, I've yet to see anyone say they'd favor the incremental step of removing religion alone from the list of protected classes.

I do love how Christians claim they'd be just fine with a business turning them away like this. I have a feeling the vast majority would not. We'd have a thread on here about anti-Christian persecution so fast everyone's heads would spin.

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And we'd be hearing that baking a cake no more supports the Christian lifestyle than feeding a Christian family does. I mean after all food provides them the energy to worship Jesus.

Christian restaurants should deny gays service. They don't want to provide the calories they'll use for gay sex and support their lifestyle

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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I wonder why one would even go down this path...as it is the complete opposite of the mission of God.

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Refusing to marry two gay people is the complete opposite mission of God? I don't think you're reading the bible

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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So gays can't be people of faith?

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That's a whole different topic and I don't want to derail the thread.

I will say that if the bible took the opposite stance and said heterosexuality was sinful and how entire cities were destroyed because of that behavior, I would do one of two things.

1.) question the bible
2.) turn away from heterosexual behavior (wouldn't engage in homosexual behavior, just be single)

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NO, it's not a whole diff topic. In fact, you kinda answered your own question with your answer below. Think about it. I bet you will see it.

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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Do you realize how fast this store would be sued if they operated this way and actually refused service to christians? Don't act like gays are the only ones to use the legal system. Imagine the outrage that would pour out over the Anti-Christ grocery that refused to sell anything to you because of your faith.

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No in this example this store still provides services to everyone. I'm saying that just because this store is willing to provide me service doesn't mean I want to give them my business

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If it provides services to everyone I don't see how it's a comparable situation. If the businesses in question provided their services to everyone like your hypothetical one we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

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It's only comparable in that this grocery store would never have the ability to deny me service. Just like you wouldn't expect to see black people walking into the Ku Klux Klamburger. My original point was I don't understand why gay people would want a service like marriage performed by a church that disagrees with their life choices. That's all.

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Refusing to marry two gay people is the complete opposite mission of God? I don't think you're reading the bible

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No, but creating a situation where you expect or desire someone to choose something else besides the church is.

You're basically saying "you really don't want church, so why bother coming here?"

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I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

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So gays can't be people of faith?

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That's a whole different topic and I don't want to derail the thread.

I will say that if the bible took the opposite stance and said heterosexuality was sinful and how entire cities were destroyed because of that behavior, I would do one of two things.

1.) question the bible
2.) turn away from heterosexual behavior (wouldn't engage in homosexual behavior, just be single)

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NO, it's not a whole diff topic. In fact, you kinda answered your own question with your answer below. Think about it. I bet you will see it.

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Gays can't be Christians and businesses must provide services to everyone are in fact two different topics.

Reading is hard I know.

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Refusing to marry two gay people is the complete opposite mission of God? I don't think you're reading the bible

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No, but creating a situation where you expect or desire someone to choose something else besides the church is.

You're basically saying "you really don't want church, so why bother coming here?"

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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Refusing to marry two gay people is the complete opposite mission of God? I don't think you're reading the bible

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No, but creating a situation where you expect or desire someone to choose something else besides the church is.

You're basically saying "you really don't want church, so why bother coming here?"

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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1) the bible is not a clear as you think it is

2) are you advocating that people who look at porn or engage in premarital sex or anything else should not choose church and go live life elsewhere?

Are you really arguing that the bible doesn't make it clear homosexuality is wrong? Torbush.wow.gif

And no you don't turn away people who are sinning. They need help and love. Doesn't mean you have to condone that behavior. You want to help them turn away from that behavior.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.

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Refusing to marry two gay people is the complete opposite mission of God? I don't think you're reading the bible

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No, but creating a situation where you expect or desire someone to choose something else besides the church is.

You're basically saying "you really don't want church, so why bother coming here?"

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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So you want theocracy instead of liberty? Because that is your argument. I didn't realize you hated freedom so much.

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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If you want to police and regulate any of these things within your church among people who have agreed to your church's rules and policies, be my guest. Not everyone belongs to your church, however.

I hate freedom? I wish I had the laugh/cry emoticon.

I never said anything about a business being able to deny service to anyone. All I did was pose the question why would a group WANT services from a business that outwardly opposes their life choices.

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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If you want to police and regulate any of these things within your church among people who have agreed to your church's rules and policies, be my guest. Not everyone belongs to your church, however.

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So you would agree the church that is self policing these things should be allowed to refuse to marry a gay couple correct?

They can and do, and nobody is arguing against that. This is not a church in question.

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They can and do, and nobody is arguing against that. This is not a church in question.

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The topic seemed to have switched to a church instead of the OP.

I agree that a business should not be allowed to refuse services to a protected class based on the laws we have today.

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Part of being a Christian is being repentant of sin. Since the bible takes the stance that being gay is a sin, that behavior should not be condoned. The church should still love on that person but shouldn't be okay with their decision any more than they should be okay with a Hetero Christian looking at porn, engaging in pre marital sex or the myriad of other sins committed by Christians.

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If you want to police and regulate any of these things within your church among people who have agreed to your church's rules and policies, be my guest. Not everyone belongs to your church, however.

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So you would agree the church that is self policing these things should be allowed to refuse to marry a gay couple correct?

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What Woody said. Literally no one is trying to make a church marry someone it doesn't want to marry, despite the misleading article and post by the OP. I have a feeling the author of the article knows that, but he gets page clicks by drumming up hysteria in people like seamaster.

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The topic seemed to have switched to a church instead of the OP.

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It never switched. The implication that this is happening to churches was present from the get-go, either intentionally or through being completely misinformed.

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I agree that a business should not be allowed to refuse services to a protected class based on the laws we have today.

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Then we're in agreement.

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Are you really arguing that the bible doesn't make it clear homosexuality is wrong? Torbush.wow.gif

And no you don't turn away people who are sinning. They need help and love. Doesn't mean you have to condone that behavior. You want to help them turn away from that behavior.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.

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Salvation, justification, sanctification, faith/works, How the holy spirit works, how the trinity actually interacts with each other, are a hotly debated theological concepts that have lead to a smattering of various denominations.

But homosexuality is crystal clear. God, in his infinite wisdom, made all these things murky...but homosexuality, which affects a small percentage of people was made clear.

Come on.

NT mentions of homosexuality are weak at best. Romans 1 pertains to more hedonism, and doesn't seem to speak at all to homosexuality in committed relationships. 1 Cor 6 has suspect translations and does not address homosexuality in general. Very weak to base your tenents of morality on.

I would not bother bringing up the OT. If you explain away the all the others things we do that are sinful there was new covenant, you have to with this one too.

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Gays can't be Christians...

Reading is hard I know.

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Wow. EOT.

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NT mentions of homosexuality are weak at best. Romans 1 pertains to more hedonism, and doesn't seem to speak at all to homosexuality in committed relationships. 1 Cor 6 has suspect translations and does not address homosexuality in general. Very weak to base your tenents of morality on.

I would not bother bringing up the OT. If you explain away the all the others things we do that are sinful there was new covenant, you have to with this one too.

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Jude 7 is "weak"? Is John 1 a farce? If Jesus (the Living Word in John 1, who's ALWAYS been) is okay wiyh homosexuality, why didn't he speak up as his FATHER was raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah?

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Gays can't be Christians...

Reading is hard I know.

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Wow. EOT.

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Wow is right, I think you are illiterate. Why would you cut off my original quote which mentioned the two clearly different topics.

I never said nor do I believe gays can't be Christians, just that that topic is COMPLETELY different than forcing businesses to abide by the law and provide services to protected classes.

He also let his FATHER kill a man for refusing to impregnate his dead brother's wife. So.... yeah.

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He also let his FATHER kill a man for refusing to impregnate his dead brother's wife. So.... yeah.

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IBM is a part of the Dow Jones Industrial Average......figured this thread moved on to just saying random facts

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NT mentions of homosexuality are weak at best. Romans 1 pertains to more hedonism, and doesn't seem to speak at all to homosexuality in committed relationships. 1 Cor 6 has suspect translations and does not address homosexuality in general. Very weak to base your tenents of morality on.

I would not bother bringing up the OT. If you explain away the all the others things we do that are sinful there was new covenant, you have to with this one too.

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Jude 7 is "weak"? Is John 1 a farce? If Jesus (the Living Word in John 1, who's ALWAYS been) is okay wiyh homosexuality, why didn't he speak up as his FATHER was raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah?

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Tampa you are right. It seems pretty clear that if you think the bible is true you must believe homosexuality is wrong. Luckily, we don't make laws in America based on that presupposition. We are so very fortunate to live without theocracy in most arenas. You still seem to want to promote it the specific case of SSM. Why not outlaw pride or jealousy? Is it because you struggle with those sins and not homosexuality?

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Gays can't be Christians...

Reading is hard I know.

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Wow. EOT.

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Wow is right, I think you are illiterate. Why would you cut off my original quote which mentioned the two clearly different topics.

I never said nor do I believe gays can't be Christians, just that that topic is COMPLETELY different than forcing businesses to abide by the law and provide services to protected classes.

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So this is your first post on the subject:

I've wondered why homosexuals even want to be married by a church/pastor. If someone opened a store called the Anti-Christ Groceries and sold the same stuff as HEB, I wouldn't want to shop there even if they were forced to let me. I would obviously not be welcome.

So are you not saying Gays have no place in the church?

I am absolutely not saying gays have no business being in the church. Just saying that gay people should not be surprised when the church does not condone their lifestyle. Just as the church wouldn't condone people viewing pornography, pre marital sex, and a slew of other things.

ETA: I can see how my OP could be interpreted that I was saying gays aren't welcomed to church. I didn't mean to imply that.

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I am absolutely not saying gays have no business being in the church. Just saying that gay people should not be surprised when the church does not condone their lifestyle. Just as the church wouldn't condone people viewing pornography, pre marital sex, and a slew of other things.

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This one isn't the least bit surprised. Yall can think/preach whatever you want. It only concerns me when it spills out into the legal system or someone won't sell me something or treats me badly because of it.

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He also let his FATHER kill a man for refusing to impregnate his dead brother's wife. So.... yeah.

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IBM is a part of the Dow Jones Industrial Average......figured this thread moved on to just saying random facts

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More a point on the OT God and the kind of stuff Jesus was apparently ok with, without going back into the argument over why he supposedly destroyed Sodom.