I'm having this debate with a Catholic friend of mine. She is quite sure of herself on the notion that all Catholics are Christians. She even went as far to say that Catholics taught us the Lord's Prayer and that Peter was the first Pope not Paul. Granted, I don't a whole lot about this subject, but I was always taught that Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. Please help me out here.

Peter was the first Pope, although not really known as "Pope" back then.

Catholicism is the first and truest form of Christianity. Go and read the early church fathers and they all lead you to the Catholic Church. When you read the quotes, notice the dates. This is the first group of people being called Christians. The original meaning of "Catholic" is "universal", meaning the whole Christian Church.

http://www.staycatholic.com/early_church_fathers.htm

All other denominations broke away from the Church because they couldn't hang with it's teaching or because of reactions against corruption, or just wanting more political power in thier own little part of the world. The Orthodox faith was part of the Catholic Church until they split because of the aforementioned "political power". The Greeks resented that the power lay in Rome and not in the East. Some have since returned.

The Protestant Reformation was less a reformation than a revolt, whereas instead of reforming the true Church from within, they chose to abandon the whole thing at serious risk of losing thier salvation. I personally abhor how the Anglican/Episcopal church was foumded beacause it wasn't even founded on an interpretation a faith but because the king of England wanted to trade his wife in for a younger model who he eventually beheaded anyway in order to do the same thing again.

The Catholic Church has, at times, had it's problems. However, it has never waivered from it's teaching even in the face of tremendous pressure from outside forces.

Also good to remember...while the people in the Church are imperfect and screw up from time to time, the Church herself is perfect and spotless. Infallible because it was instituted by Jesus himself who passed it to Peter and so began a line of men who we call Pope today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

I'm a convert from the Baptist denomination and I can honestly say it's the best decision I have ever made.

Catholicism is not a sect or denomination, it is Christianity in it's purest and truest state.



[This message has been edited by olarmyfight (edited 6/5/2013 4:03a).]

Well said!

Well my wife converted from Catholicism to Baptist and best decision she ever made ....

Catholics I don't believe you need to confess your sins to a priest or man. I talk to God daily myself.

Catholic services I have been to seem to be to ritualistic for me with all the chants etc.

A lot of Catholics that I know booze pretty heavy which leads or can lead to more sin. To each their own,

I have a real problem with the Catholic services not being very friendly to outsiders. Definitely weird to hear all the chants and kneeling and not know what is going on. Also though you may have been saved you cannot partake in the lords supper unless you are a catholic.

I don't agree with or think that baptizing a baby saves that baby from hell. Nice gesture and all but that is something that Gods leads us to do under our own free will, hence accepting Jesus as the Son of God saves us.

I don't understand why Mary is worshiped and has a statue. Why isn't Joseph honored too? Really though I don't get the idolatry of Mary nor is there anything in scripture that says to say Hail Marys etc.

I have no problem with Catholicism only that the followers tend to have a little tu in them which becomes a problem. The elitism is a turn off.

Whatever church works for you and your family is all that matters. None of us our any better than the other as long as the teachings are based on scripture. If you and God have a close relationship then I wouldn't worry about what denomination you are or aren't.

WCF Ch.25 Of the Church
I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]

Be careful to distinguish between the word catholic and that church at Rome who has fallen so far from the truth and subjects herself to one who exalts himself to an office held by Christ alone.

Oh boy... a pile-on session, chock-full of pseudo-knowledge.

Oh boy... a pile-on session, chock-full of pseudo-knowledge.
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Agree, and I'm just a back-slidden Baptist.

aww, yeah. love to see the possessors of the truth™ getting along so well and in such agreement.

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Oh boy... a pile-on session, chock-full of pseudo-knowledge.
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Agree, and I'm just a back-slidden Baptist.

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I'll watch this thread with great anticipation and beer in hand...

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aww, yeah. love to see the possessors of the truth™ getting along so well and in such agreement.

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truth™ should be written as TRVTH™

On a serious note, the discussion has not devolved into who's got it right doctrinally. Rather, it's a mischaracterization of beliefs and practices. Saying Catholics worship Mary and statues is similar to saying atheism leads to murderous regimes and evolution means that we descended from monkeys. These are false, and can be called pseudoknowledge.

The big bang came first, then abiogenesis, then evolution

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On a serious note, the discussion has not YET devolved into who's got it right doctrinally.

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FIFY.

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On a serious note, the discussion has not YET devolved into who's got it right doctrinally.

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FIFY.

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TRVTH™!!

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Catholicism is the first and truest form of Christianity.

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I disagree. Jews who believed Yeshua was the Messiah (Messianic Jews for short), kept Torah and worshiped in Jewish synagogues were the first and truest form of Christianity. Paul made a vow at the temple just to prove he never violated Torah (Acts 21:24). Gentiles are grafted into Judaism (Romans 11:17) and are told to get in the synagogue on the Sabbath to learn the Laws of Moses (Acts 15:21).

The more appropriate question: Which came first, catholicism or the church of Rome?

All early christians were catholic by default.

Not to start a conflagration, but until 1053 there was no such thing as a Roman Catholic Church.

There was the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church.

There are two sides to this story, but someone more knowledgeable than I needs to take it from here.

Semantics aside, the real debate is not about whether or not the first christians were "catholic". They were, unquestionably so. The debate must center around whether or not catholic in 2013 means the same thing that it did then.

What we call American football today barely resembles the game people watched in 1890 to the point where people from that era likely would not identify it as the same game. This is where the debate is, not about whether or not its correct to call early christians catholic.

O.K., this is how Justin Martyr described Christian worship to the Emperor in the year 155. Sounds much more similar to what is done today by the Catholic Church than what I've seen of the Non-denominational mega churches today.

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Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

[This message has been edited by DGdad (edited 6/5/2013 3:30p).]

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I disagree. Jews who believed Yeshua was the Messia

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Why do you use the Hebrew name for Jesus but nobody else from the Bible? Sounds a bit like affectation.

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Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

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What about that is distinctly Roman Catholic?

7thGen...

I'm not sure any of it is 100% RC only. But as I read it I can follow the modern mass from beginning to end. As most church's follow a similar format, I would assume they are similar as well ( I can only speak for methodist and baptist, as I have attended their services before I became Catholic.)

I have to get to a meeting, so maybe someone with more time can delve deeper into it for ya.

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The Protestant Reformation was less a reformation than a revolt, whereas instead of reforming the true Church from within, they chose to abandon the whole thing

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Well that's certainly an interesting take, since the Pope excommunicated Luther when he tried to reform the corruption from within.

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The Protestant Reformation was less a reformation than a revolt, whereas instead of reforming the true Church from within, they chose to abandon the whole thing

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Well that's certainly an interesting take, since the Pope excommunicated Luther when he tried to reform the corruption from within.

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Both of these statements fail to capture the truth. In reality, the story is more complex and nuanced than the Catholics vs. Protestants meme.

Correct, there were numerous divisions prior (east-west, multiple monastic orders, the papal schism). Rome sought to maintain unity via the Inquisition. The reformation attempted to bring a proper distinction and connection of Church and State, which was only made possible by separation from Rome's tyranny. Only once this was done could the true evangel of Jesus Christ be propagated, that which is impossible under the dominion of Rome.

Forgive me if I don't take posts seriously that have a "those damn Catholics" tone to them.

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Forgive me if I don't take posts seriously that have a "those damn papists" tone to them.

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fify

Just stating history and taking your advice of "capturing the truth." The fact remains that Luther spent his life attempting to reform the church. Note the stark difference between his 95 theses:

9. Accordingly, the Holy Spirit, acting in the person of the pope, manifests grace to us, by the fact that the papal regulations always cease to apply at death, or in any hard case.

26. The pope does excellently when he grants remission to the souls in purgatory on account of intercessions made on their behalf, and not by the power of the keys (which he cannot exercise for them).

38. Yet the pope's remission and dispensation are in no way to be despised, for, as already said, they proclaim the divine remission.

to his realization that the pope was truly the antichrist.

to his realization that the pope was truly the antichrist
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at least he didn't call him Hitler

Agnosticism came first. Then we started pretending to know the answers.

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I'm having this debate with a Catholic friend of mine. She is quite sure of herself on the notion that all Catholics are Christians. She even went as far to say that Catholics taught us the Lord's Prayer and that Peter was the first Pope not Paul. Granted, I don't a whole lot about this subject, but I was always taught that Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. Please help me out here.

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The Christian movement began in Jerusalem, with James, the brother of Jesus, as it's head. There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, and Paul did, in fact, start the church in Rome, though he would never have referred to himself as pope or even bishop. In Galatians 2:8, Paul says "For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles." Paul was appointed by God to start the Churches in Rome, where the "uncircumcised" were.

As for the Lord's Prayer nonsense, did either of you think to look it up in the Bible?

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I'm having this debate with a Catholic friend of mine. She is quite sure of herself on the notion that all Catholics are Christians.

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Questions I would ask:
1. Are you trusting in your Catholisicm to save your or Jesus.
2. Can a person be saved (Christian) without ever hearing that the catholic church exists?
3. If a person believes in Jesus, (that he died for their sins and rose again) and never partakes of any of the sacraments(sp?) can he be saved?
4. Can a Catholic trust in the communion and confession and church attendance for salvation instead faith in Jesus?

History: How many "Catholics" believed historically that if they fought a way or paid indulgences would be saved based upon the church leaders words? (or were buried under a church (Peru)

Rome had a huge Jewish population at the time, bpc.

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She is quite sure of herself on the notion that all Catholics are Christians.

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This smacks of ignorance on what Catholicism actually teaches. The question I have for you, OP, is why Catholics would not be considered Christians.

You've just accused someone if ignorance, 747, who qualified his post with an admission of ignorance.

Yep, I pointed out the obvious.