I, for one, love that the Catholic Church doesn't change its doctrines based on the current social environment.

(AND...the issue with the Nun giving the homily isn't only that she is a woman. She isn't ordained. A lay-male shouldn't give one either.)

BQ,

While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1–16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11–14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34–38).

Deacons in the ancient church weren't ordained.

The Council of Nicea affirms this....(you know...the same council that brought us the Nicene Creed)

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"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity"

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(Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

"Deaconesses" really wasn't the same thing as "Deacon." This is evidenced by the fact that they were not ordained.

Timothy was not written by Paul and that verse was specifically added to keep women from teaching. Most all of Paul's other letters are clear on the issue of the importance of women and early Christianity. Many verses of the Bible were ALTERED to omit women.

I wish the Church could show some humility and admit when an error has been made...

"Timothy was not written by Paul..."



"and that verse was specifically added to keep women from teaching."

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"Most all of Paul's other letters are clear on the issue of the importance of women and early Christianity."

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Sure. Who is saying that they aren't important?

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Many verses of the Bible were ALTERED to omit women.

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I am honestly embarrased for you.

I'll admit I'm a neophyte on this stuff compared to some of you, but is there not a great number of scholars that think Tim was not written by Paul?

Do you also deny that many of the older copies of scripture definitively show alterations made to limit the role of women?

I'll admit my main source is from Misquoting Jesus (mainly because I'm just finishing it) and it sounds legit. If it's not, I'll listen to counter-arguments should you care to make them.

I, for one, love that the Catholic Church doesn't change its doctrines based on the current social environment.
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this is an unintended expression of humor.

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Deacons in the ancient church weren't ordained.

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From what I can gather, Acts gives an account of the ordination of Deacons.

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Do you also deny that many of the older copies of scripture definitively show alterations made to limit the role of women?

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Yes.

I haven't read "Misquoting Jesus" so I wouldn't know where to begin. Let me guess the premise of "Misquoting Jesus" though...the author pulls from heretic sources such as Gnostic ones and upholds them as true representations whilst our little old bible is corrupted?

This is the problem with organized religion. A female, who has gone through religious study well beyond that of the general mass attending audience, and who probably has had a genuine religious experience, wishes to share HER opinion on said beliefs, which I'm sure she shared with the Priest before giving the surmen. But because when you life up her skirt, something is different from when you lift up the Priests skirt, those opinions are somehow less different. Now, I'm sure most of you would agree that the opinions expressed by both are more than likely of equal value, but I was completely suprised that some of you are angry because a woman said them, just because of church doctrine. I can see where you could call out that perish on it, but to actually be angry because a violation of a rule that is clearly sexist is beyond me.

Was 1 Corinthians also "not written by Paul?"

Was it changed to limite the role of women?

The idea that "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, bond nor free" has nothing to do with the discussion of women teaching in the worship.

We also find that bishops are to be the "husband of one wife." (1 Timothy 3:2; also Titus 1:6 for those who think Timothy is a forgery) Does this mean that married men AND women who play the male role in a lesbian relationship can serve as elders?

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Women have an important role to fill in the pulpit as well. The Spirit of the Lord is not restricted to sex.

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does your religion follow the Bible?

Does this mean that married men AND women who play the male role in a lesbian relationship can serve as elders?
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Let me ask my lesbian minister friend.

Seamaster - I hoped you might have read it because I'm sure you could better clarify what he's saying. From his prologue, he started out as an obsessive Evangelical who yearned to know everything about the Bible. The book centers on the actual copies of both Greek and Latin texts and the differences between them. He also looks at how things were changed and possible motives for them. He looks at important social issues around the time some of the texts were changed, specifically to exclude the Gnostics, Adoptionists, and others. He shows how a couple phrases that were written into the margin of old copies by scribes were later adopted into the text.

The book seems to be on the level - which is why I picked it up. But, like I mentioned before, I'm not as well read on this stuff as some of you.

If you have some free time and decide to give it a shot - I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. It's quite an easy read.

As someone said earlier in the thread - what is being discussed here is not the fact that a WOMAN gave the homily at Mass, it is that a non-ordained person gave the homily at Mass.

Think of it this way:

In any trial, expert testimony must be given by a LISCENCED expert on the subject - not just by someone who has read a whole lot about it. If you bring in a person to testify to the mental state of a defendant - the person must be a liscenced psychologist right?

The church is fundamentally saying the same thing about the homily at Mass. The homily must be given by an ordained person.

Does this mean that non-ordained are forbidden to teach outside of the Mass? NO. It absolutely does not. There are MANY cases where the Church uses non-ordained, men and women alike, to instruct in matters of the faith.

Now, the of ordination of women is an entirely separate matter. Dont confuse the two.

Excellent point and important to keep in mind. I do enjoy the side discussion as well.

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The book centers on the actual copies of both Greek and Latin texts and the differences between them.

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What part of the Bible was written in Latin?

I am betting that he meant "Hebrew."

I have always thought it somewhat ironic that Mary is so elevated in the Catholic Church but could never be part of the priesthood were she alive today. Ditto Mary Magdelen.

I have always thought it somewhat ironic that Mary is so elevated in the Catholic Church but could never be part of the priesthood were she alive today. Ditto Mary Magdelen.
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Basically because she is missing a certain appendage; how weird, but then I'm not God, I mean not the Pope.

I could be confusing some things but he gets into all of the old texts and the history of the Bible and the different authors who spent their entire lives trying to come up with an "inerrant" Bible. This is mostly on the New Testament, but I believe some of the Latin texts they have a based off of earlier texts than what we have available. How they know this, I'm not sure. Anyways, unless I'm wrong, he's saying that the Greek and Latin NT stuff is what they have to go on.

Anyways, here's the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202157237&sr=8-1

I just found this while looking for people to refute it. I guess it's odd that the parts I found most compelling about the book weren't really addressed in the review, but I did get a better understanding of a different perspective on the matter...

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4000

In the Catholic and Orthodox view: Christ was male, and priests are icons of Christ, therefore it makes sense why priests should be male.

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I have always thought it somewhat ironic that Mary is so elevated in the Catholic Church but could never be part of the priesthood were she alive today. Ditto Mary Magdelen.

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Why do you all assume that everything must be available to everyone? Just as men do not have the vocation of motherhood available to them, women do not have the vocation of priesthood. - Sure, men can be fathers, but I'm sure everyone can agree that fatherhood and motherhood are not the same thing. I'm not saying one is any better than the other, just pointing out that they are different.

Its not about with holding something from someone. Its simple a matter of 'a 3 sided object cannot be a square - no matter how hard it tries.'

A 3 sided object is a triangle - no matter what - but it can be a right triangle, an equalateral triangle, an isocline, or a scalene triangle. Can it be all of those at the same time? No.

A 4 sided object can be a trapezoid, or a parallelogram, or it can simply be a polygon - if its a parallelogram then it can be a rectangle, if it's a rectangle then it can be a square. Can it be all of those things at the same time? No.

Sure, this is just geometry, but its the same sort of thing with vocations. Not all vocations are available to everyone - just by their very nature.

Not all important people in faith are called to the priesthood... It is its own vocation. So its not a question of "should women be allowed to be priests?" its simply just not something that they can be. It has nothing to do with genitalia... It has something to do with the soul. - I'm not saying that women's souls are any less holy then men's - just that there is some inherent difference that allows men to be priests.

The priesthood is much more than just giving a sermon at church on sunday. I don't know what it is about the sould of a male that enables him to be a priest - and really, I dont care what that diffference is - I dont question God's design - I accept it.

Does the priesthood itself hold some authority? Yes. Does this mean that ALL men have authority over ALL women? NO, it doesnt. It simply means that a priest has authority over laity (non ordained), this includes men AND women.

EDITED for grammar.

[This message has been edited by kbaum07 (edited 2/4/2008 3:40p).]

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The homily must be given by an ordained person.

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Ok then, where is that in the Bible?

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Ok then, where is that in the Bible?

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Right next to the passage forbidding me from taking your arm and making hamburger from it.

Why do you all assume that everything must be available to everyone?
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I assume you are male?

You assume correctly - but i think if there are any Catholic women out there on this thread, they likely agree with me.

747

Did you ever stop and think it could have been a priest and his regular vestments were dirty!

You assume correctly - but i think if there are any Catholic women out there on this thread, they likely agree with me.
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Of course, or else they would be thinking for themselves, I mean challenging church authority.

I see...

I suppose you also think that if a woman happens to vote the same way her husband does that she is being subordinate to him - and voting that way because he tells her to...

Women only think for themselves when they have different opinions then men... right professor?

[This message has been edited by kbaum07 (edited 2/4/2008 4:27p).]

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Right next to the passage forbidding me from taking your arm and making hamburger from it.

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That must be in the Apocrypha because I'm not finding it.

CHURCH.


Its serious business.

Did you hear the message? Did you get anything out of it?

If yes, then you really ought to just go with it. Seriously, people get worked up over the smallest things.

I will say i am not catholic, and am not strict anyway. At any rate, i find the concern frivolous, if not outright comical.

[This message has been edited by jed1154 (edited 2/4/2008 5:03p).]

jed, i've been waiting for someone to say something like that the entire time. it's been really hard to not ask this till now: Did anyone who was there remember even the basic message from the homily? or were they too busy getting worked up?

PS-my g/f is Catholic and she thinks this is BS. So yea, there's at least one more rogue Catholic out there.

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does your religion follow the Bible?

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Yes! Again, I posted one of the supporting verses in my first post on this thread.

Do you have a verse saying the spirit chooses people based on sex?

[This message has been edited by Pro Sandy (edited 2/4/2008 5:53p).]

Dwight, perhaps you should convince the wayward Lutherans of their doctrinal errors.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2702

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=4664

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=308&cuItem_itemID=20100

PS: ProSandy, see the scriptural references in the links above.

[This message has been edited by aggieangst (edited 2/4/2008 6:28p).]