*** THE ODYSSEY *** (Christopher Nolan)

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Redstone
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All kidding aside, this review hits my opinions exactly.

I really wish Eggers had gotten here first.

Take me to the world. Foreign, strange, unsettling.

I WANT TO BELIEVE

Quote:

For all its promised spectacle, Nolan's Odyssey never truly transports us to the ancient world. It gives us a picture of that world, sterilises it, and sends it back wearing the moral psychology of therapeutic modern society. After three dreary hours, the man of many turns has been reduced to one familiar lesson: be kind, process your guilt, listen to women, and know when to step aside.


https://www.unz.com/article/eat-pray-sail/
fig96
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All good.

I can see how that might have helped some people, but coming at it from the creative perspective I'd think most directors would want to leave their work open to interpretation.
CharleyKerfeld
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Finally going to see it Sunday and then graduating to the other thread.

FL_Ag1998
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fig96 said:

All good.

I can see how that might have helped some people, but coming at it from the creative perspective I'd think most directors would want to leave their work open to interpretation.


And we do know that Nolan loves the mystique and questions that surround his movies, lol. Hell, I think it's that mystique and questions about his intentions that actually drive so many rave reviews and get people to overlook the weaknesses in his plots, dialogue, etv.
Cromagnum
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FL_Ag1998
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CharleyKerfeld said:

Finally going to see it Sunday and then graduating to the other thread.




Lol, dude there's no way you can quit this thread now.

"I just can't quit you Odyssey thread!"
veryfuller
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I just think this is a misunderstanding of adaptation. When a filmmaker adapts a book, poem, song, other movie into a film, they have reasons they want to do it. Most of the time (and with most good adaptations IMO) its not that they want to make a straight retelling. I actually struggle to find many straight-up adaptations that are really great.

I guess this could be explained to general audiences more? But it just seems like maybe you need to adjust your expectations when it comes to adaptations. They often change things to try and make it a better story, or because they connected to certain element and they are highlighting that element, or to make it more efficient, or whatever. And I feel like most people do understand that going in to an adaptation. Which is why most of the time, "the book is better" is a thing you hear afterward.
Tom Kazansky 2012
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Cromagnum said:


CharleyKerfeld
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FL_Ag1998 said:

CharleyKerfeld said:

Finally going to see it Sunday and then graduating to the other thread.




Lol, dude there's no way you can quit this thread now.

"I just can't quit you Odyssey thread!"


I've contributed literally nothing of value to it, so it should be an easy transition. That picture reminds me, are we still on for our weekend camping together in Wyoming?
Lathspell
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No argument from me, here. O Brother Where Art Thou is absolutely fantastic. I would rather watch it 10 times in a row than watch the Odyssey again.
Backyard Gator
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TCTTS: "Is you or is you ain't mah constituents?"
Mat Lanticus
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Cromagnum said:



I don't want Fop, GD it.

I'm a Dapper Dan man!

AGC
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veryfuller said:

I just think this is a misunderstanding of adaptation. When a filmmaker adapts a book, poem, song, other movie into a film, they have reasons they want to do it. Most of the time (and with most good adaptations IMO) its not that they want to make a straight retelling. I actually struggle to find many straight-up adaptations that are really great.

I guess this could be explained to general audiences more? But it just seems like maybe you need to adjust your expectations when it comes to adaptations. They often change things to try and make it a better story, or because they connected to certain element and they are highlighting that element, or to make it more efficient, or whatever. And I feel like most people do understand that going in to an adaptation. Which is why most of the time, "the book is better" is a thing you hear afterward.


Yes and no, though. You're quibbling over how much he can change. At some point it's not an adaptation but his own retelling and it's lost in anchored expectations from the original text.

There are adaptations of pride and prejudice, but outside of the really old black and white abomination, they're fairly faithful to the book and you wouldn't ask yourself why things are changed like one can with this movie. They compress time, but the themes are the same or similar. Casting choices don't call into question the world or era of the story, and changes of lesson and reinterpretation aren't introduced, characters are faithful. They know what they are and try to deliver that.

We can also look at Peter Jackson's hobbit which cobbles together additional lore, inserts romance and gory battle scenes and say it's his own work rather than an adaptation. Weaving together multiple works forces choices but not all of them are in service of the original story (elf dwarf romance), and some detract from it (Bilbo misses the entire battle unconscious but Jackson includes it). But he still calls it the hobbit because that's what he's trying to sell, that universe, and he winds up with something far less remembered and revered. My kids have only seen the old cartoon.

So what is this adaptation? Plenty of Nolan fans would see it if he didn't call it the odyssey but followed another warrior home from a battle in this era, take your pick. Explore ptsd, the gods, whatever you want and it's fair game. When you call it the odyssey without saying you're reinterpreting it, or retelling it, you run into these questions. How would people react with a well cast movie that doesn't infringe on fidelity to the tale, but retold with this 'Zeus law' perspective? Probably better, but the ptsd take isn't a great one given how much these warriors boast about killing each other before fighting (read the Iliad if you're curious) and Odysseus' fame for cunning.

His choices say he wants an ancient epic with a different story and characters, but ticket sales require something people know I guess. I think he could pull it off, there's a lot of source material to explore.

Edit: Jackson's LotR movies are great in their own way as adaptations. I love it and the book, both stand above other works on their categories. I'm not 100% out on adaptations.
Complete Idiot
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Complete Idiot said:

JimJonesAg11 said:

if this is any other direct other than Nolan its a bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Brother,_Where_Art_Thou%3F




You're not seriously comparing these two movies, are you? I know O Brother is an adaptation of The Odyssey but that's a real stretch you're making to try to refute his point. Besides, his point (I'm assuming) hinges on the controversies surrounding Nolan's version, which weren't surrounding O Brother. If this movie were made by lesser director it wouldn't have nearly the spotlight to begin with, it definitely wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt from the critics and the general audience, and it wouldn't be able to withstand the controversies. Even the critics who like it are overlooking things like the pacing because it's Nolan.

Man, these O Brother posts are so page 85.

One of my favorite lines in a movie ever: "Friend, some of your folding money has come unstowed"
FL_Ag1998
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AGC said:

veryfuller said:

I just think this is a misunderstanding of adaptation. When a filmmaker adapts a book, poem, song, other movie into a film, they have reasons they want to do it. Most of the time (and with most good adaptations IMO) its not that they want to make a straight retelling. I actually struggle to find many straight-up adaptations that are really great.

I guess this could be explained to general audiences more? But it just seems like maybe you need to adjust your expectations when it comes to adaptations. They often change things to try and make it a better story, or because they connected to certain element and they are highlighting that element, or to make it more efficient, or whatever. And I feel like most people do understand that going in to an adaptation. Which is why most of the time, "the book is better" is a thing you hear afterward.


Yes and no, though. You're quibbling over how much he can change. At some point it's not an adaptation but his own retelling and it's lost in anchored expectations from the original text.

There are adaptations of pride and prejudice, but outside of the really old black and white abomination, they're fairly faithful to the book and you wouldn't ask yourself why things are changed like one can with this movie. They compress time, but the themes are the same or similar. Casting choices don't call into question the world or era of the story, and changes of lesson and reinterpretation aren't introduced, characters are faithful. They know what they are and try to deliver that.

We can also look at Peter Jackson's hobbit which cobbles together additional lore, inserts romance and gory battle scenes and say it's his own work rather than an adaptation. Weaving together multiple works forces choices but not all of them are in service of the original story (elf dwarf romance), and some detract from it (Bilbo misses the entire battle unconscious but Jackson includes it). But he still calls it the hobbit because that's what he's trying to sell, that universe, and he winds up with something far less remembered and revered. My kids have only seen the old cartoon.

So what is this adaptation? Plenty of Nolan fans would see it if he didn't call it the odyssey but followed another warrior home from a battle in this era, take your pick. Explore ptsd, the gods, whatever you want and it's fair game. When you call it the odyssey without saying you're reinterpreting it, or retelling it, you run into these questions. How would people react with a well cast movie that doesn't infringe on fidelity to the tale, but retold with this 'Zeus law' perspective? Probably better, but the ptsd take isn't a great one given how much these warriors boast about killing each other before fighting (read the Iliad if you're curious) and Odysseus' fame for cunning.

His choices say he wants an ancient epic with a different story and characters, but ticket sales require something people know I guess. I think he could pull it off, there's a lot of source material to explore.

Edit: Jackson's LotR movies are great in their own way as adaptations. I love it and the book, both stand above other works on their categories. I'm not 100% out on adaptations.
TCTTS
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OldArmy71 said:

Just curious: Are those reactions your own original thoughts?

Your response is an excellent, thoughtful, well-written analysis. Elizabeth Wilson, whose translation Nolan used, says something very similar (though I do not "blame" her for Nolan's choices).

I taught The Odyssey to ninth graders for a decade, so I have some familiarity with the story and wanted to see the movie.

However, your analysis makes me not want to see it at all. (I am sure I will attempt it once it is on streaming. I can't easily sit through three hours.)

Nolan is free to do with the Odyssey anything he wants, but if what you and Wilson say is true, it is not the Odyssey at all, and I am not someone who enjoys Nolan's films enough to see it just because he made it.

Nolan looked at an epic 2700 years old and saw.....himself.


It's interesting to think of another epic, Beowulf, from the same perspective.

Scholars believe that the poem is an assemblage of pagan stories compiled by a Christian cleric, who leaves his own imprint on the pagan verse.

It's just that Christianity and paganism had such bleak worldviews in those days the difference is not all that jarring.


I'd say 2/3 from other takes I read, 1/3 my own thoughts, all summarized and combined together.

And while I appreciate your kinds words, also know that, in-movie, none of it plays that blatantly. I mean, yes, all of it's both on the surface and in the subtext, but it's not, like, beating you over the head with it throughout. I would argue most people don't even make those connections.

That said, I disagree that Nolan saw only himself in this adaptation. Rather, in combination with his casting, dialogue, accent choices, costuming, etc, I'd argue that he chose to modernize his adaptation thematically as well, if only because he believed modern audiences would better-relate to it. Something countless other directors have done in adapting countless other works. Characters and themes are tweaked/changed all the time from page to screen.

Also, whereas you may not want to see Nolan's take - which I completely understand, and don't begrudge you one bit - it was far more interesting to me, personally, than the original telling / the original version of Odysseus. And seems to be resonating with general audiences as well. All of that is to say, I don't see it as a right or wrong thing (not that you're framing it that way). I totally get where people like you are coming from, who wanted a more faithful telling, but I also totally get why Nolan chose to go the route he did, and both are perfectly valid.
veryfuller
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You're quibbling on what is important vs not in an adaptation. I'm just arguing that adaptations necessitate difference most of the time.

I think this adaptation is far more faithful to the poem than you are giving it credit for. You are acting like he changed the story wholesale, when instead he honed in on one of the many major themes of the poem and told the story from that perspective.

Now it doesn't work as well for you, but to pretend it's barely an adaptation seems silly.
TCTTS
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Hey...so.. um
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After reading most, not all of this thread, I'm really excited to see this movie. Won't be until it comes to streaming because of young kids and a wife(who will not want to see it).

I don't personally like the casting choices of Helen and Page, but that seems to be a small part of the movie so I can get over it to enjoy the movie.

Despite the round and round fighting on this thread, I have enjoyed reading this way more than the F16 version.

Lastly, I dont think I'm into anything as much as TC is into this forum. <not that there's anything wrong with that gif> but it just makes me chuckle. I appreciate his time and effort put into his posts even when I disagree with him on certain things.

Edit to add that I saw the movie Civil War because of the thread on here and I am very glad I didn't just listen to initial conservative media about the movie. When directors can leave politics to a minimum, I dont really care about their personal beliefs if the movie is good.
Peter Piper
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Leave the wife and kids at home and go watch it at the theater.
FL_Ag1998
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Without passion there are no passionate arguments, and I love passionate arguments. Groupthink and echo chambers are boring. Disagreeing and arguing passionately, but respectfully, are the lifeblood of a society. That's why I love this board and contribute my share of "pushback" and "prodding". I even love both TC and Cliff, lol.
Hey...so.. um
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Unfortunately, I enjoy basketball, Pickleball and youth ministry more than movies and that already has me away from the family as much as I am willing to be away.
Lathspell
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Without passion there are no passionate arguments, and I love passionate arguments. Groupthink and echo chambers are boring. Disagreeing and arguing passionately, but respectfully, are the lifeblood of a society. That's why I love this board and contribute my share of "pushback" and "prodding". I even love both TC and Cliff, lol.

This.

The only posts I truly find insufferable are those that act like anyone who cares about a certain movie or show is a loser. That whole, "why do you care so much about a movie?" bull***** It's the Entertainment board. Many of us post so much here because we truly love movies, shows, music, etc. I have no issue with anyone being passionate about anything, involving entertainment.

I also haven't participated on the F16 thread because that's too much about the politics and not the entertainment.
Mat Lanticus
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I think we can finish off this thread, which I'm sure everyone wants to do, by just all acknowledging that Nolan cast a trans as a Greek soldier and a black as beautiful Greek queen because of the Oscars.

He sacrificed his vision by laying down Homer's magnum opus at the feet of the Woken Gods of DIE and said, "I am but a humble visionary of cinema, O most terrible and nepotistic immortal lords of the undeserving. What must I do to curry favor with the Kabbalistic Demiurges of the strange and weird land of the Woods of Holly?"

To which Inclusivus Weetoddicus, most absurd of the three immortals, stated, " Hear me well Nolan the Soul Seller. You must conjur up a mighty vision of a confused mutilated woman to be a man, but not just any man. A man of Greek warrior status, the most manly archetype of them all, so that the Demiurges of the Woods of Holly know that you have laid down your pride for the mythical Oscar. And furthermore, make the most beautiful woman in the world exactly not that. Add Zendaya as well to br a Greek goddess, her popularity confuses even us, and we are Gods. It will surely confuse everyone else as well"

And Lo, Nolan the Soul Seller did as he was bade by Inclusivus Weedtoddicus. The Demiurges of the Woods of Holly were pleased, for Nolan the Soul Seller made them richer than they already were.
TCTTS
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JFC. They just keep coming out of the woodwork.
bubblesthechimp
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you spent a lot of time on this post and im here to tell you that it's not a good one but thank you for your effort
FL_Ag1998
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Mat Lanticus said:

I think we can finish off this thread, which I'm sure everyone wants to do, by just all acknowledging that Nolan cast a trans as a Greek soldier and a black as beautiful Greek queen because of the Oscars.

He sacrificed his vision by laying down Homer's magnum opus at the feet of the Woken Gods of DIE and said, "I am but a humble visionary of cinema, O most terrible and nepotistic immortal lords of the undeserving. What must I do to curry favor with the Kabbalistic Demiurges of the strange and weird land of the Woods of Holly?"

To which Inclusivus Weetoddicus, most absurd of the three immortals, stated, " Hear me well Nolan the Soul Seller. You must conjur up a mighty vision of a confused mutilated woman to be a man, but not just any man. A man of Greek warrior status, the most manly archetype of them all, so that the Demiurges of the Woods of Holly know that you have laid down your pride for the mythical Oscar. And furthermore, make the most beautiful woman in the world exactly not that. Add Zendaya as well to br a Greek goddess, her popularity confuses even us, and we are Gods. It will surely confuse everyone else as well"

And Lo, Nolan the Soul Seller did as he was bade by Inclusivus Weedtoddicus. The Demiurges of the Woods of Holly were pleased, for Nolan the Soul Seller made them richer than they already were.


Ok, I know I said that I like passionate arguments.....but no....just....no.
veryfuller
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....sigh...

Look, I don't know this for sure....but I think its a safe bet so I am just going to say it: Nolan doesn't care about the Oscars. I mean, I think he is probably glad to have one now, but the dude doesn't want to do the Oscar song and dance again unless he has to. He makes movies FOR THE AUDIENCE.

Its cool if you don't like the move or his choices in the movie, whatever. But he is one of the few prestige filmmakers that is clearly not awards hunting.
hunter2012
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This is probably the review that resonates the most with me while I've been deciding to see it or not.


I think I won't be able to enjoy watching this because I'd be too busy scrutinizing and critiquing it. I won't be entertained, so what's the point? I'll blame my history degree for this one. If it were a re-imagining of it it would have seen it opening Thursday in IMAX, but since it's an adaptation of the classical story and appears to have butchered the story I think I'll pass for now.

If this really is the classic of the decade that TCTTS is claiming (judging by how he's defending it) then I'll catch this in an IMAX re-release in the future because it's bound to return. The way I see it that action would tell the truth far more than any agenda driven critics and fudged audience ratings would.
Peter Piper
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hunter2012 said:

The way I see it that action would tell the truth far more than any agenda driven critics and fudged audience ratings would.

You have proof of this or are you just parroting what your twitter algorithm feeds you?
TCTTS
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I've never in my life seen so much performative gnashing of teeth from some of you over whether to see a movie or not.

Good Lord.

All said and done, after driving/parking/trailers, it's only four hours of your life and however much your ticket + concessions cost. I understand that certain people simply don't have the time, but it's also clear that many of you do, and instead are choosing to make such a trivial thing out to be some kind of epic, existential odyssey in and of itself.

I mean, it's obvious what the real motivations are, re: all the hemming and hawing, but come on. It's a movie. At a movie theater. Either see it or don't.

Also, I've never once claimed it was "the classic of the decade" or anything of the sort. In fact, I've said multiple times in this thread that, IMO, the movie is upper mid-tier Nolan, not in his top three, maybe not even in his top five, etc. What I'm "defending" is sanity from all the verifiably false **** you and others have been stirring, in one of the most sad and bizarre online hate campaigns I've ever witnessed.
veryfuller
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You don't have to post on every page that you aren't going to see it. We know.

But also, why are you watching/consuming/reading so much content on a movie you are not going to see? Just go see it and decide for yourself instead? You've probably spent more time than the movie is long at this point just consuming what other people think of it.
jokershady
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Waiting for it to start in IMAX in Sugar Land. Kids let out a "woah" when they saw the screen.
Backyard Gator
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Just a ballpark guesstimate, how many commercials do you think you watched between the trailers before the movie started?

The last time I went to a theater, I remember the commercials before the movie irritating me. It is one thing to see them watching television, but during trailers annoyed me.
Head Ninja In Charge
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Mat Lanticus said:

I think we can finish off this thread, which I'm sure everyone wants to do, by just all acknowledging that Nolan cast a trans as a Greek soldier and a black as beautiful Greek queen because of the Oscars.

He sacrificed his vision by laying down Homer's magnum opus at the feet of the Woken Gods of DIE and said, "I am but a humble visionary of cinema, O most terrible and nepotistic immortal lords of the undeserving. What must I do to curry favor with the Kabbalistic Demiurges of the strange and weird land of the Woods of Holly?"

To which Inclusivus Weetoddicus, most absurd of the three immortals, stated, " Hear me well Nolan the Soul Seller. You must conjur up a mighty vision of a confused mutilated woman to be a man, but not just any man. A man of Greek warrior status, the most manly archetype of them all, so that the Demiurges of the Woods of Holly know that you have laid down your pride for the mythical Oscar. And furthermore, make the most beautiful woman in the world exactly not that. Add Zendaya as well to br a Greek goddess, her popularity confuses even us, and we are Gods. It will surely confuse everyone else as well"

And Lo, Nolan the Soul Seller did as he was bade by Inclusivus Weedtoddicus. The Demiurges of the Woods of Holly were pleased, for Nolan the Soul Seller made them richer than they already were.

Been a member on this site for a long time and I gotta say that this is easily among the ten worst posts I've ever read. Honestly impressive.
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