DannyDuberstein said:

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Abusing children results in broken adults. They oftentimes become abusers themselves, they become addicts, they become shell of a person. That abused kid coming back to kill you, whether it is 7 days, 7 months, or 7 years later, is basically your own doing. You created the monster. Now it's still murder and time needs to be served, partly because this person you've created stands a good chance of being a danger to others. But they should have an opportunity to earn that freedom.

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"Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back!""

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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So is your argument that the parents should have suffered zero consequences for what they did?

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Link to where I said that.

That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

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That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

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I find this acceptable. Again, I'd give some significant time, mainly geared toward ensuring that blowing people's heads off is not an overall go-to for them when it comes to conflict resolution. But demonstrate they are not crazy other than bringing some deserved albeit aggressive vigilante justice to mom and dad, I'd absolutely let them have a path to freedom after 15-20

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

Captain Winky said:

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How do an 11-year-old and 14-year-old go to the police and report the abuse? "Hey Mom, can you take us down to the police station so that we can report you and Dad for diddling us?"

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911 was invented in 1968,

Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

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That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

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According to Lyle, the sexual abuse started when he was 6 years old. When it starts at that young of an age it becomes so normalized to the child, that it doesnt even occur to them to call the police.

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Are there any other sources?

People willing to shoot their parents are probably okay with lying too. From what I saw in episode 1, Lyle had no problem with lying his ass off. He even called it "the perfect crime". Which to me, implies he knows it was a crime and not self defense.

aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

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That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

---

According to Lyle, the sexual abuse started when he was 6 years old. When it starts at that young of an age it becomes so normalized to the child, that it doesnt even occur to them to call the police.

---

Are there any other sources?

People willing to shoot their parents are probably okay with lying too. From what I saw in episode 1, Lyle had no problem with lying his ass off. He even called it "the perfect crime". Which to me, implies he knows it was a crime and not self defense.

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Lyle had told his cousins and Princeton roommate about the sexual abuse prior to the murders. Lyle's cousin said Lyle told her about the sexual abuse when he was 8 years old. Also, a member of the boy band Menudo claimed Jose Menendez had raped him twice.

Could they all be lying? Sure, but when there's smoke there's typically fire. I think its pretty safe to say that some abuse occurred, whether physical, emotional, or sexual, we obviously dont know to what extent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/lyle-erik-menendezs-cousin-testified-sexual-abuse-speaks/story?id=44420173

https://people.com/menudo-roy-rossello-menendez-brothers-sex-abuse-claims-8717639

DannyDuberstein said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

---

That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

---

I find this acceptable. Again, I'd give some significant time, mainly geared toward ensuring that blowing people's heads off is not an overall go-to for them when it comes to conflict resolution. But demonstrate they are not crazy other than bringing some deserved albeit aggressive vigilante justice to mom and dad, I'd absolutely let them have a path to freedom after 15-20

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History has tried vigilante justice. It has failed.

What happens is that dude X goes overboard on his vigilante justice against person Y because he is livid and thinks vigilante justice is acceptable. Then the friends or family of Y inflicts overly harsh vigilante justice back on X in return. Then the cycle continues. Eventually you have Mexican cartel-style violence going both ways.

That is why we, as civilized people, have smartly delegated our justice to an impartial and clear headed 3rd party. To avoid that sort of cycle of violence. That is also why inner cities, who's citizens refuse to report crimes or "snitch" to police in favor of handling it themselves are so violent. As they are enduring the same violent cycle.


As "rewarding" as vigilante justice may seem sometimes, it results in a worse society overall.

Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

---

That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

---

According to Lyle, the sexual abuse started when he was 6 years old. When it starts at that young of an age it becomes so normalized to the child, that it doesnt even occur to them to call the police.

---

Are there any other sources?

People willing to shoot their parents are probably okay with lying too. From what I saw in episode 1, Lyle had no problem with lying his ass off. He even called it "the perfect crime". Which to me, implies he knows it was a crime and not self defense.

---

Lyle had told his cousins and Princeton roommate about the sexual abuse prior to the murders. Lyle's cousin said Lyle told her about the sexual abuse when he was 8 years old. Also, a member of the boy band Menudo claimed Jose Menendez had raped him twice.

Could they all be lying? Sure, but when there's smoke there's typically fire. I think its pretty safe to say that some abuse occurred, whether physical, emotional, or sexual, we obviously dont know to what extent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/lyle-erik-menendezs-cousin-testified-sexual-abuse-speaks/story?id=44420173

https://people.com/menudo-roy-rossello-menendez-brothers-sex-abuse-claims-8717639

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Is that covered in the show? That seems way out of left field.

Does that mean the Menudo guy could blow Jose Menendez's head off and many people here would consider it acceptable?

Maybe watch the show then.

aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

---

That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

---

According to Lyle, the sexual abuse started when he was 6 years old. When it starts at that young of an age it becomes so normalized to the child, that it doesnt even occur to them to call the police.

---

Are there any other sources?

People willing to shoot their parents are probably okay with lying too. From what I saw in episode 1, Lyle had no problem with lying his ass off. He even called it "the perfect crime". Which to me, implies he knows it was a crime and not self defense.

---

Lyle had told his cousins and Princeton roommate about the sexual abuse prior to the murders. Lyle's cousin said Lyle told her about the sexual abuse when he was 8 years old. Also, a member of the boy band Menudo claimed Jose Menendez had raped him twice.

Could they all be lying? Sure, but when there's smoke there's typically fire. I think its pretty safe to say that some abuse occurred, whether physical, emotional, or sexual, we obviously dont know to what extent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/lyle-erik-menendezs-cousin-testified-sexual-abuse-speaks/story?id=44420173

https://people.com/menudo-roy-rossello-menendez-brothers-sex-abuse-claims-8717639

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Is that covered in the show? That seems way out of left field.

Does that mean the Menudo guy could blow Jose Menendez's head off and many people here would consider it acceptable?

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It wasnt covered in the show, probably because the Menudo member made the claim last year in 2023.

It seems out of left field for an underaged boy, who Jose Menendez spent a lot of time around as head of RCA records, to claim that he was molested by Jose when theres claims of his sons saying the same thing?

I dont think it was justified for Jose to be murdered, just saying theres more claims/evidence that sexual abuse occurred.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Maybe watch the show then.

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I'm working on it. (Well when my wife gets back from out of state)

Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That was a question. So, what is your argument then?

---

That if you are abused you should go to the police and report it. What you shouldn't do is wait 7 years until you are 18 and 21, go buy shotguns, and then surprise your parents in their living room to blow their heads off. That as soon as you do that, you are guilty of pre-meditated double murder and deserve to spend the rest of your life in jail (or get executed).

---

According to Lyle, the sexual abuse started when he was 6 years old. When it starts at that young of an age it becomes so normalized to the child, that it doesnt even occur to them to call the police.

---

Are there any other sources?

People willing to shoot their parents are probably okay with lying too. From what I saw in episode 1, Lyle had no problem with lying his ass off. He even called it "the perfect crime". Which to me, implies he knows it was a crime and not self defense.

---

Lyle had told his cousins and Princeton roommate about the sexual abuse prior to the murders. Lyle's cousin said Lyle told her about the sexual abuse when he was 8 years old. Also, a member of the boy band Menudo claimed Jose Menendez had raped him twice.

Could they all be lying? Sure, but when there's smoke there's typically fire. I think its pretty safe to say that some abuse occurred, whether physical, emotional, or sexual, we obviously dont know to what extent.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/lyle-erik-menendezs-cousin-testified-sexual-abuse-speaks/story?id=44420173

https://people.com/menudo-roy-rossello-menendez-brothers-sex-abuse-claims-8717639

---

Is that covered in the show? That seems way out of left field.

Does that mean the Menudo guy could blow Jose Menendez's head off and many people here would consider it acceptable?

---

It wasnt covered in the show, probably because the Menudo member made the claim last year in 2023.

It seems out of left field for an underaged boy, who Jose Menendez spent a lot of time around as head of RCA records, to claim that he was molested by Jose when theres claims of his sons saying the same thing?

I dont think it was justified for Jose to be murdered, just saying theres more claims/evidence that sexual abuse occurred.

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Oh... Jose. I read that as one of the brothers molested a Menudo member. Like maybe when he was 20 he molested a Menudo member. I had no idea how that would come to be, and why I thought it came out of left field.

aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

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1) If you experienced something as traumatic as being sexually molested you would.

2) Yes, it's been posted on this thread multiple times.

agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

---

1) If you experienced something as traumatic as being sexually molested you would.

2) Yes, it's been posted on this thread multiple times.

---

I saw where he told his cousin. While that does indeed count as evidence, I don't count it as answering my question. Because the brother is still the source. I was wondering if Jose or the wife admitted to it to somebody or if it was written down or something.

And to be clear, I'm not claiming an 8 year old is lying. I am fully convinced they were molested (but that doesn't justify murder way after the fact). I am just wondering if there is additional evidence outside of the brothers word.

agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

---

1) If you experienced something as traumatic as being sexually molested you would.

2) Yes, it's been posted on this thread multiple times.

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No kidding. Not to mention its not like it was a one time isolated incident when they were 6. They said the abuse happened for a decade.

aTmAg said:

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agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

---

1) If you experienced something as traumatic as being sexually molested you would.

2) Yes, it's been posted on this thread multiple times.

---

I saw where he told his cousin. While that does indeed count as evidence, I don't count it as answering my question. Because the brother is still the source. I was wondering if Jose or the wife admitted to it to somebody or if it was written down or something.

And to be clear, I'm not claiming an 8 year old is lying. I am fully convinced they were molested (but that doesn't justify murder way after the fact). I am just wondering if there is additional evidence outside of the brothers word.

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I doubt a sexual abuser is going to admit to his wife that hes molesting their sons. If you watch the show, it shows the wife turning a blind eye to what was going on. She allegedly knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it.

Petrino1 said:

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aTmAg said:

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agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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You make it sound so easy. Like the parents would be quickly thrown in jail, and the sons wouldn't have to suffer any retribution at the hands of their dad as soon as he got home.

And like children would even have knowledge and capability of reporting it to the police in the first place. I sure as hell wouldn't know where to go as a 12 year old.

---

I know of kids younger than 12 who have called 911 for various emergencies. I can't imagine that you really had no idea what you could do as a 12 year old.

What the brothers could have done what 99.9999+% of the world does in such a situation: Refrain from committing double premediated murder as 18-21 years olds. Afterall, being molested from age 6 until age 18 is a whole lot better than being molested from age 6 until age 18 AND spending the rest of your life in jail.


Now I still haven't seen past the 1st episode (my wife is out of town and we are watching it together), so I don't know the answer to any of this:

1) How the hell is it known they were molested from age 6? I can't remember a damn thing from when I was 6. Was there evidence other than convicted murderers saying so over a decade after the fact? Did the dad keep a calendar from the 70s with "molest the boys" penciled in?

2) Is there evidence of molestation other than from the brothers themselves? Did their mom say something to a friend? Why is everybody so certain it happened?

---

1) If you experienced something as traumatic as being sexually molested you would.

2) Yes, it's been posted on this thread multiple times.

---

I saw where he told his cousin. While that does indeed count as evidence, I don't count it as answering my question. Because the brother is still the source. I was wondering if Jose or the wife admitted to it to somebody or if it was written down or something.

And to be clear, I'm not claiming an 8 year old is lying. I am fully convinced they were molested (but that doesn't justify murder way after the fact). I am just wondering if there is additional evidence outside of the brothers word.

---

I doubt a sexual abuser is going to admit to his wife that hes molesting their sons. If you watch the show, it shows the wife turning a blind eye to what was going on. She allegedly knew what was going on but did nothing to stop it.

---

She could have written something in a diary or accidentally slipped and said something to somebody.

Maybe watch the show and accompanying documentary first, then wonder.

Just a suggestion.

After I watched the documentary last night, 2 things stuck out.

1) Leslie asked Erik on the stand if he wanted the activity to stop, and he said "No". It was the only time he ever got to spend alone with his dad. I don't remember if they showed that in the show.

2) Erik wanted to go to Stanford to put some distance, and his dad said "no, you're going to UCLA and living here". So this did come down to money, because he was too old to move out on his own at 18 and go to college like plenty of kids do.

I just now got around to watching this. Just one episode so far. The Lyle character is funny as hell. I'm not sure how much was creative liberty or true character, but cracked me up.

Logos Stick said:

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I just now got around to watching this. Just one episode so far. The Lyle character is funny as hell. I'm not sure how much was creative liberty or true character, but cracked me up.

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One thing I wished they had shown in the show was the way Lyle was treated in the County Jail. While he was walking past a cell to go to court one of the other inmates snatched the toupee off his head and held it over the toilet threatening to flush it while laughing his ass off at Lyle before the guards made him give it back. Can you imagine if he had actually gone through with flushing it and Lyle had to show up in court bald headed? The courtroom would have been stunned.

Also not seen in the show was Leslie Abramson stroking Erik's hair and shoulders in the courtroom while they listened to testimony. She did that a lot in the trial and I remember CourtTV commentators making a big deal out of it.

20ag07 said:

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Maybe watch the show and accompanying documentary first, then wonder.

Just a suggestion.

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Nah.. I'll post here when I want.

agracer said:

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20ag07 said:

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Maybe watch the show and accompanying documentary first, then wonder.

Just a suggestion.

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Being obtuse is aTm schtick here on on F13.

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Annoying you is a side benefit.

Quote:

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The Menendez brothers may be closer to freedom.

A source close to the case says that Los Angeles County district attorney George Gascn will recommend the resentencing of Erik and Lyle Menendez, with an eye toward releasing them. It's said that Gascn is planning a press conference at a courthouse in downtown Los Angeles on Wednesday, and has invited the brothers' extended family to be in attendance. If he does in fact make the recommendation, a judge would then preside over a hearing. Gascn did not immediately respond to Vanity Fair's request for a comment.

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https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/exclusive-menendez-brothers-may-be-closer-to-freedom?

I don't care what anybody says, but that Milli Vanilli song is pretty damned good.

I think the real singers/song-writers should have gotten the Oscar that was taken from the fake group.