Fightin TX Aggie said:
"I'd love to party with Yabushige.."
Dude would boil you in a pot for giggles. He's a likable, traitorous, coward, murderer. Yet somehow likable!
So be it…would be a f'n honor
Shogun 10-episode miniseries coming to FX
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Last: 2 mo ago by aTmAg
So be it…would be a f'n honor
I don't understand Ishido's motivation. Why not just let her go on day one? Why does he care if she stays?
He lets her go
He has to let everyone go
He's controlling everyone by keeping them hostage
Remember the one group that tried to leave.
But he's trying to do it without the entire city knowing he's keeping them hostage.
He has to let everyone go
He's controlling everyone by keeping them hostage
Remember the one group that tried to leave.
But he's trying to do it without the entire city knowing he's keeping them hostage.
Prophetic! He's a survivor that is for sure.Quote:
He does a great job of playing the bumbling fool with his reactions, and backs down very quickly when needed..but you can also tell there is some viciousness too him too.
I think it is sweet she left him with lots of little things of hers to remember her by.
her ear.
her eye.
a thumb.
etc
her ear.
her eye.
a thumb.
etc
Why either way?
Why not force her to stay and let her kill herself? Why would the city revolt if she did that, but not revolt when Toranaga's entire clan is forced to commit suicide a few days later?
Or..... Why not just let her go and not let anybody else go? Prisons do that all the time.
I assume there are good reasons in the book that the show doesn't have time to explain.
Why not force her to stay and let her kill herself? Why would the city revolt if she did that, but not revolt when Toranaga's entire clan is forced to commit suicide a few days later?
Or..... Why not just let her go and not let anybody else go? Prisons do that all the time.
I assume there are good reasons in the book that the show doesn't have time to explain.
I thought the show did an excellent job of explaining the reasoning. Ishido was holding them hostage through BS security measures established earlier in the season. Mariko said her lord's orders superseded those measures, no matter the danger. If he's allows a high born woman to go, then there is no reason any other man or woman can't leave too. If he allows the daughter of the man who murdered a hated emperor to turn herself into a political martyr by seppuku, then the entire city revolts. He chose option A.
I was trying to keep up with everything in the chaotic ending but want to make sure I was following it…
The ninjas were working for Ishido and Yabushiga let them in to kill all of Mariko's people, the other old ladies (that I can never keep up with) and Mariko herself. Then John, Mariko, and the other women start fighting back and trying to escape….why did Yabushiga "join them" in trying to run? It seems like he could have helped the assassins kill John then the women are vulnerable and toast. Were they trying to capture the women, not kill them?
I got a little mixed up when he started hanging with them.
The ninjas were working for Ishido and Yabushiga let them in to kill all of Mariko's people, the other old ladies (that I can never keep up with) and Mariko herself. Then John, Mariko, and the other women start fighting back and trying to escape….why did Yabushiga "join them" in trying to run? It seems like he could have helped the assassins kill John then the women are vulnerable and toast. Were they trying to capture the women, not kill them?
I got a little mixed up when he started hanging with them.
Yeah on the podcast, they said the intent was to kidnap Mariko, not kill her.
BDG02 said:
Yeah on the podcast, they said the intent was to kidnap Mariko, not kill her.
Fair enough. Then what was the point of kidnapping her? Ishido wants to avoid the perception that he's keeping them prisoner so he tells them all they can leave. He doesn't want her killing herself out of protest of his actions so he shows up and stops her. Why then kidnap her and make her a prisoner somewhere? That seems like exactly the thing he was trying to avoid? Or was the plan to have "unknowns" capture her and he then holds his hands up and says "I don't know where she is or who has her…"
A few episodes ago, the two Christian reagents confirmed to each other that they were hostages. They weren't living under any delusions. I can't see how letting her go, would suddenly make them see the light. They know what is going on.Definitely Not A Cop said:
I thought the show did an excellent job of explaining the reasoning. Ishido was holding them hostage through BS security measures established earlier in the season. Mariko said her lord's orders superseded those measures, no matter the danger. If he's allows a high born woman to go, then there is no reason any other man or woman can't leave too. If he allows the daughter of the man who murdered a hated emperor to turn herself into a political martyr by seppuku, then the entire city revolts. He chose option A.
And that same daughter is going to commit seppuku in a few weeks anyway. Why would the timing matter to the city?
Does the last episode follow the book? Or have they diverged?
aTmAg said:A few episodes ago, the two Christian reagents confirmed to each other that they were hostages. They weren't living under any delusions. I can't see how letting her go, would suddenly make them see the light. They know what is going on.Definitely Not A Cop said:
I thought the show did an excellent job of explaining the reasoning. Ishido was holding them hostage through BS security measures established earlier in the season. Mariko said her lord's orders superseded those measures, no matter the danger. If he's allows a high born woman to go, then there is no reason any other man or woman can't leave too. If he allows the daughter of the man who murdered a hated emperor to turn herself into a political martyr by seppuku, then the entire city revolts. He chose option A.
And that same daughter is going to commit seppuku in a few weeks anyway. Why would the timing matter to the city?
Yes everyone in the castle knew they were being held hostage. But Ishido was posturing it publicly as holding them for their safety because of the bandits (that he sent) were targeting the elite. Just like with any political posturing, most people aren't willing to burn everything down to point out that people in charge are lying about their motivations.
And the Mariko killing herself mattered because how and when she was choosing to do it. If someone sentenced to death ends up burning themselves alive for example, it's going to make a bigger hubbub to most people.
I don't buy any of that. Reading around the internet, I came across this reason:Definitely Not A Cop said:aTmAg said:A few episodes ago, the two Christian reagents confirmed to each other that they were hostages. They weren't living under any delusions. I can't see how letting her go, would suddenly make them see the light. They know what is going on.Definitely Not A Cop said:
I thought the show did an excellent job of explaining the reasoning. Ishido was holding them hostage through BS security measures established earlier in the season. Mariko said her lord's orders superseded those measures, no matter the danger. If he's allows a high born woman to go, then there is no reason any other man or woman can't leave too. If he allows the daughter of the man who murdered a hated emperor to turn herself into a political martyr by seppuku, then the entire city revolts. He chose option A.
And that same daughter is going to commit seppuku in a few weeks anyway. Why would the timing matter to the city?
Yes everyone in the castle knew they were being held hostage. But Ishido was posturing it publicly as holding them for their safety because of the bandits (that he sent) were targeting the elite. Just like with any political posturing, most people aren't willing to burn everything down to point out that people in charge are lying about their motivations.
And the Mariko killing herself mattered because how and when she was choosing to do it. If someone sentenced to death ends up burning themselves alive for example, it's going to make a bigger hubbub to most people.
That Mariko dying for merely wanting to leave would piss off the 2 Christian reagents and turn them from passive spectators to active participants against Ishido.
That makes way more sense.
Agreed, that's another great reason.
He reminds me of Bodie from "The Wire".Fightin TX Aggie said:
"I'd love to party with Yabushige.."
Dude would boil you in a pot for giggles. He's a likable, traitorous, coward, murderer. Yet somehow likable!
The acting in this episode was phenomenal.
Mariko, Yabushige, Ishido and Blackthorne nailed it.
I love the Mariko spear fighting scene and Blackthorne stepping up to be Mariko's second.
Ready for the finale!
Mariko, Yabushige, Ishido and Blackthorne nailed it.
I love the Mariko spear fighting scene and Blackthorne stepping up to be Mariko's second.
Ready for the finale!
Go back and rewatch the council meeting on reviewing what to do. That pretty much explains everything. It even has you in it. You are Torrinada's brother in that scene.
It seems they have a lot of road to cover in 1 episode. I have faith that they will pull it off.
??LB12Diamond said:
Go back and rewatch the council meeting on reviewing what to do. That pretty much explains everything. It even has you in it. You are Torrinada's brother in that scene.
Gotta admit ... that was a little confusing. But I love this show even when I don't know what is going on.
What was that shoulder tapping thing at the gate?
What was that shoulder tapping thing at the gate?
"Do not be fooled by our politeness. Our bows, our maze of rituals." Mariko
In the Eightfold Fence episode, Mariko explained to Blackthorne the complexity of the samurai culture of the day.
Honor mattered greatly, but honor to Ishido is about perception, not truth. Ishido's quest for power must balance the perception of his honor against his scheme for power.
Toronaga sent Mariko into Osaka as a weapon. She spoke boldly in front of all the high families from a posture of duty & honor. Don't miss the dialogue where she says she is no peasant to be trampled upon. It's Ishido who rose from a low family. Mariko's lineage is ancient. This is a swipe at Ishido, and the others in the room saw it. His weakest attribute, among this audience, is his lineage
Once she spoke so boldly, the trap closed. Ishido must let her leave (thereby destroying the illusion that "guests" in the castle were there to be protected from bandits) or he must allow her to commit suicide because he denied her her own honor and duty to her lord.
Trap closed. As soon as she spoke.
Ishido's strategy then was to blame the ninjas for her death or kidnapping. He would use the ninjas to create the illusion that (1) he wasn't involved and (2) his other castle "guests" still needed protection.
Yabushige allowed the ninjas in, but then he pretended to oppose them in order to maintain his own veneer of innocence. He wanted Mariko's group to run for the gate because he knew the ninjas would be there.
Toronaga needs the other "great houses" to come to his side. Mariko's key role was to pierce Ishido's illusion to the point that the other houses could not ignore the dishonor.
In the Eightfold Fence episode, Mariko explained to Blackthorne the complexity of the samurai culture of the day.
Honor mattered greatly, but honor to Ishido is about perception, not truth. Ishido's quest for power must balance the perception of his honor against his scheme for power.
Toronaga sent Mariko into Osaka as a weapon. She spoke boldly in front of all the high families from a posture of duty & honor. Don't miss the dialogue where she says she is no peasant to be trampled upon. It's Ishido who rose from a low family. Mariko's lineage is ancient. This is a swipe at Ishido, and the others in the room saw it. His weakest attribute, among this audience, is his lineage
Once she spoke so boldly, the trap closed. Ishido must let her leave (thereby destroying the illusion that "guests" in the castle were there to be protected from bandits) or he must allow her to commit suicide because he denied her her own honor and duty to her lord.
Trap closed. As soon as she spoke.
Ishido's strategy then was to blame the ninjas for her death or kidnapping. He would use the ninjas to create the illusion that (1) he wasn't involved and (2) his other castle "guests" still needed protection.
Yabushige allowed the ninjas in, but then he pretended to oppose them in order to maintain his own veneer of innocence. He wanted Mariko's group to run for the gate because he knew the ninjas would be there.
Toronaga needs the other "great houses" to come to his side. Mariko's key role was to pierce Ishido's illusion to the point that the other houses could not ignore the dishonor.
This makes perfect sense, but none of it is clear in the episode. At least to me.Fightin TX Aggie said:
"Do not be fooled by our politeness. Our bows, our maze of rituals." Mariko
In the Eightfold Fence episode, Mariko explained to Blackthorne the complexity of the samurai culture of the day.
Honor mattered greatly, but honor to Ishido is about perception, not truth. Ishido's quest for power must balance the perception of his honor against his scheme for power.
Toronaga sent Mariko into Osaka as a weapon. She spoke boldly in front of all the high families from a posture of duty & honor. Don't miss the dialogue where she says she is no peasant to be trampled upon. It's Ishido who rose from a low family. Mariko's lineage is ancient. This is a swipe at Ishido, and the others in the room saw it. His weakest attribute, among this audience, is his lineage
Once she spoke so boldly, the trap closed. Ishido must let her leave (thereby destroying the illusion that "guests" in the castle were there to be protected from bandits) or he must allow her to commit suicide because he denied her her own honor and duty to her lord.
Trap closed. As soon as she spoke.
Ishido's strategy then was to blame the ninjas for her death or kidnapping. He would use the ninjas to create the illusion that (1) he wasn't involved and (2) his other castle "guests" still needed protection.
Yabushige allowed the ninjas in, but then he pretended to oppose them in order to maintain his own veneer of innocence. He wanted Mariko's group to run for the gate because he knew the ninjas would be there.
Toronaga needs the other "great houses" to come to his side. Mariko's key role was to pierce Ishido's illusion to the point that the other houses could not ignore the dishonor.
Did you get that background from the book?
I liked how Blackthorne used his pistols in the fight.
(Last Samurai turned Tom Cruise into a katana expert.)
(Last Samurai turned Tom Cruise into a katana expert.)
Maybe?? I haven't read the book in so long that I don't remember it.
This is just my take from the show, but my take may be colored by the sense of Japanese culture I got from reading the book years ago.
This is just my take from the show, but my take may be colored by the sense of Japanese culture I got from reading the book years ago.
I just had an idea. The idea relates to Mariko, but it connects to something from the original miniseries, so don't click the spoiler if you don't want something spoiled.
**WARNING** This is a significant spoiler if this show goes like the 1980s show.
It was Toronaga who engineered Mariko's marriage to Buntaro, thus saving her life. Toronaga is such a long-term planner that it seems possible (likely) he knew that one day Mariko could be useful to him. She came from one of the most respected families in Japan, and she had deep connections with the nobility. In short, no telling how she might be useful one day. Toronaga might as well "collect" her and keep her close.
Why did I put spoiler tags on this? Because in the book and the original miniseries, Toronaga also "collects" Blackthorne. He doesn't know exactly how Blackthorne might be useful, but he wants him just in case. At the end of the miniseries, Toronaga secretly has Blackthorne's ship burned. He then orders Blackthorne's ship to be rebuilt, but he has already decided Blackthorne will never leave Japan. Just as it is his (Toronaga's) destiny to be Shogun, it is Blackthorne's destiny to remain his vassal.
**WARNING** This is a significant spoiler if this show goes like the 1980s show.
It was Toronaga who engineered Mariko's marriage to Buntaro, thus saving her life. Toronaga is such a long-term planner that it seems possible (likely) he knew that one day Mariko could be useful to him. She came from one of the most respected families in Japan, and she had deep connections with the nobility. In short, no telling how she might be useful one day. Toronaga might as well "collect" her and keep her close.
Why did I put spoiler tags on this? Because in the book and the original miniseries, Toronaga also "collects" Blackthorne. He doesn't know exactly how Blackthorne might be useful, but he wants him just in case. At the end of the miniseries, Toronaga secretly has Blackthorne's ship burned. He then orders Blackthorne's ship to be rebuilt, but he has already decided Blackthorne will never leave Japan. Just as it is his (Toronaga's) destiny to be Shogun, it is Blackthorne's destiny to remain his vassal.
I read that spoiler because I thought you were afraid to spoil the episode we just watched (and you were being extra careful). But that sorta spoils next weeks too.Fightin TX Aggie said:
I just had an idea.
It was Toronaga who engineered Mariko's marriage to Buntaro, thus saving her life. Toronaga is such a long-term planner that it seems possible (likely) he knew that one day Mariko could be useful to him. She came from one of the most respected families in Japan, and she had deep connections with the nobility. In short, no telling how she might be useful one day. Toronaga might as well "collect" her and keep her close.
Why did I put spoiler tags on this? Because in the book and the original miniseries, Toronaga also "collects" Blackthorne. He doesn't know exactly how Blackthorne might be useful, but he wants him just in case. At the end of the miniseries, Toronaga secretly has Blackthorne's ship burned. He then orders Blackthorne's ship to be rebuilt, but he has already decided Blackthorne will never leave Japan. Just as it is his (Toronaga's) destiny to be Shogun, it is Blackthorne's destiny to remain his vassal.
So warning to everybody: Avoid that spoiler unless you have read the book.
Indeed. Please don't tag a spoiler saying it's your theory then go on to say what happens in the original material.
this was a dick thing to post in this way, spoiling the ending of the book and likely the TV show, with no warning you were going to be spoiling the ending.Fightin TX Aggie said:
I just had an idea.
snipped
hell I got a 1 month ban for making a Stranger Things joke about a single plot point in the MCU thread... three weeks after the show aired.
My apologies, sincerely. I thought the spoiler tags would be enough.C@LAg said:this was a dick thing to post in this way, spoiling the ending of the book and likely the TV show, with no warning you were going to be spoiling the ending.Fightin TX Aggie said:
I just had an idea.
snipped
hell I got a 1 month ban for making a Stranger Things joke about a single plot point in the MCU thread... three weeks after the show aired.
I've added a note to clarify and warn.
Why don't you just go ahead and remove it? I nearly clicked on it thinking it was just an idea you had about the episode. I would have been pissed, too.
That episode was done so well. 10 has a lot to live up to now.
Five episodes in so haven't read any of this thread since the show started. Keep in mind that Shogun is in my top 5 books and I can't not compare the book to show.
Halfway through impressions:
- Shogun is way too complex to do in Japanese subtitles, for anyone enjoying this series but haven't read the novel yet, there are so many more layers to this story than what FX is putting out. maybe this will change in the later episodes.
- girlboss Mariko is cringe, they completely botched this character, it was eye rolling when she told Blackthorne to call her Mariko-sama
- Fuji/Fujiko is well done, probably the most pleasant surprise halfway through
- Yabu is a smiling idiot
- Omi is a joke through half the show
- Ajiro (or Anjiro in the novel) is on the Izu peninsula and has a coastal climate. The snow is driving me nuts because that is way inaccurate. I guess that's what you get when you film in Canada, so the geography may not be authentic but at least it's not CGI.
- Ishido and Blackthorne are pretty good. There's still some stuff lost in the tv adaptation vs superb novel between Ishido and Toranaga
- Toranaga in the show is pretty good but he doesn't compare to the novel version, physically nor cunning-wise
Halfway through impressions:
- Shogun is way too complex to do in Japanese subtitles, for anyone enjoying this series but haven't read the novel yet, there are so many more layers to this story than what FX is putting out. maybe this will change in the later episodes.
- girlboss Mariko is cringe, they completely botched this character, it was eye rolling when she told Blackthorne to call her Mariko-sama
- Fuji/Fujiko is well done, probably the most pleasant surprise halfway through
- Yabu is a smiling idiot
- Omi is a joke through half the show
- Ajiro (or Anjiro in the novel) is on the Izu peninsula and has a coastal climate. The snow is driving me nuts because that is way inaccurate. I guess that's what you get when you film in Canada, so the geography may not be authentic but at least it's not CGI.
- Ishido and Blackthorne are pretty good. There's still some stuff lost in the tv adaptation vs superb novel between Ishido and Toranaga
- Toranaga in the show is pretty good but he doesn't compare to the novel version, physically nor cunning-wise
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Because we can't get away from the GOT comparisons, Yabushige really is this show's Sir Bronn of the Blackwater.El Gallo Blanco said:I'd love to party with Yabushige...something about his mannerisms and the different looks he gives crack me the hell up. He's good comedic relief at times. He gives great "are you f-ing kidding me" and "not this sh** again" looks.Belton Ag said:
I'm loving the Blackthorne/Yabushige team up, here. You could tell in the cliff scene earlier that something was going to happen with those two. They begrudgingly respect each other.
Eye rollAl Bula said:
Five episodes in so haven't read any of this thread since the show started. Keep in mind that Shogun is in my top 5 books and I can't not compare the book to show.
Halfway through impressions:
- Shogun is way too complex to do in Japanese subtitles, for anyone enjoying this series but haven't read the novel yet, there are so many more layers to this story than what FX is putting out. maybe this will change in the later episodes.
- girlboss Mariko is cringe, they completely botched this character, it was eye rolling when she told Blackthorne to call her Mariko-sama
- Fuji/Fujiko is well done, probably the most pleasant surprise halfway through
- Yabu is a smiling idiot
- Omi is a joke through half the show
- Ajiro (or Anjiro in the novel) is on the Izu peninsula and has a coastal climate. The snow is driving me nuts because that is way inaccurate. I guess that's what you get when you film in Canada, so the geography may not be authentic but at least it's not CGI.
- Ishido and Blackthorne are pretty good. There's still some stuff lost in the tv adaptation vs superb novel between Ishido and Toranaga
- Toranaga in the show is pretty good but he doesn't compare to the novel version, physically nor cunning-wise
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