It was a dream. In the dream, he was holding Mariko's rosary but in the scene when he was in the boat with Fuji, he tossed the rosary into the water.torrid said:
My thoughts.
In the flash forward or dream sequence (I'm leaning towards the latter) of Blackthorne as an old man back in England, the makeup was horrible. It would have been an interesting tip of the hat to have had Richard Chamberlain, were he able at age 90, to play the elderly Blackthorne.
Unemployed said:It was a dream. In the dream, he was holding Mariko's rosary but in the scene when he was in the boat with Fuji, he tossed the rosary into the water.torrid said:
My thoughts.
In the flash forward or dream sequence (I'm leaning towards the latter) of Blackthorne as an old man back in England, the makeup was horrible. It would have been an interesting tip of the hat to have had Richard Chamberlain, were he able at age 90, to play the elderly Blackthorne.
C@LAg said:BQRyno said:
Good show. I'll keep it spoiler free and just say that wasn't what I was expecting in the finale.
Music was a HUGE disappointment all season long. It was just ... there. Nothing really stood out, and the lack of some recurring things was disappointing. At least in this episode the music was notably more impactful and present.
aTmAg said:
Reading more about it, the real life Toranaga later forced the heir to commit suicide during a siege of Osaka castle.
He also banned Christianity and went on a murder spree. If you watch the Martin Scorsese movie Silence (which is a huge bummer of a movie), you end up hating the Japanese.
Another interesting tidbit was how the heir became the heir. To ensure his son would rule, his dad forced his nephew and his entire family to commit suicide. And then had all the family, who refused, killed including 31 women and children. He even had a concubine killed who hadn't even met the nephew yet.
Japan was a F-ed up place.
I think watching the leader she was allied with be completely out-maneuvered by a man who was at least three steps ahead was part of it. I think reconnecting with Mariko and seeing her loyalty to the same man was part of it. I also think she lost respect for a man she could sort of lead around, too.LB12Diamond said:
So this is a Japanese GOT. Episode 9 is better than 10.
So why did Mariko's death influence Ochiba in switching sides? Was it simply she aligned with a more devious and smarter leader.
Battle Royale and Pearl Harbor movies don't paint them in a good light either.aTmAg said:
Reading more about it, the real life Toranaga later forced the heir to commit suicide during a siege of Osaka castle.
He also banned Christianity and went on a murder spree. If you watch the Martin Scorsese movie Silence (which is a huge bummer of a movie), you end up hating the Japanese.
. . .
I dunno... Other than these shows, I know very little about ancient Japanese culture. And it seems that the one random link I clicked on had an example of a case that would be probably the worst I'd ever hear of in Europe. Sure, Henry VIII had 6 wives, 2 of which he beheaded, but he didn't go kill their entire extended family afterwards. I can't think of a case where somebody had that many of his own family killed.rhutton125 said:
I'd say this isn't too different than other cultures though. Succession issues, especially where a king or emperor can't seem to sire a son, then finally dies and finds some way to dispose of the previous heir. It's some real
House of the Dragon ****.
After Sekigahara, Tokugawa/Toranaga put a lot of his allies in positions of power and demoted a bunch of those who stood against him. But that's not too out of the ordinary either. He made deals and promises and wanted to put an end to the fighting, which had raged for decades without stop.
Never seen Battle Royale (looks to be fiction anyway) and Pearl Harbor makes the Japanese look like honorable combatants compared to Silence. In that movie, they tortured innocent civilians just to get priests to denounce their own Christianity. Seems pretty F-ed up to me.Faustus said:Battle Royale and Pearl Harbor movies don't paint them in a good light either.aTmAg said:
Reading more about it, the real life Toranaga later forced the heir to commit suicide during a siege of Osaka castle.
He also banned Christianity and went on a murder spree. If you watch the Martin Scorsese movie Silence (which is a huge bummer of a movie), you end up hating the Japanese.
. . .
You get over it.
rhutton125 said:
The two examples I can think of (from Asian culture) involve adopted heirs. I wonder if that's the differentiating factor at all.
Side note: some believe the Taiko to have been losing his mental faculties toward the end of his reign. I'm not sure if it's just a convenient excuse, or if it's perhaps an example of absolute power corrupting (especially since he rose from peasant foot soldier to single leader of Japan) but it is a decent theory to explain how someone so talented, intelligent and cunning... would then murder his own heir's family in favor of a 'trueblood' son, invaded Korea twice, tortured and killed Christians, etc etc. It's a stark contrast from the first 80% of his life, from what I know (500 years later and a world away).
Did the families of his brothers get killed too? Like several dozen people people?Quad Dog said:
Richard III ??
Tongue in cheek because I'm one of the last people that should quote scripture.jenn96 said:
Europe also had a longtime, deep-seated Christian belief in not executing innocents. Executing your enemies is standard for all cultures; murdering their entire line is anathema for a Christian culture. But the Japanese had no faith tradition of mercy, and were pragmatic about death living on an island where earthquakes and tsunamis and typhoons regularly killed thousands at a time and believed that as Buddhists, death is not the end but just another door you walk through into another life on the way to nirvana. I'm not defending the feudal Japanese samurai culture any more than I would defend the Vikings or the Mongols. (Or the Inquisition, for that matter). But they did things according to their own values and beliefs, which they came by honestly.
