Episode 6: Blue Balls at Willow World
Shogun 10-episode miniseries coming to FX
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Last: 25 days ago by The Kraken
So "the Heir" isn't born yet? I guess I thought the heir was that kid in the first episode that they spoke to.
So the pregnant former friend of Mariko is the Mother of the Heir….
Tobanaga is "protecting the heir" but the mother of the heir is conspiring with Ishido?
Mariko's father killed MotH's father on Tobanaga'a order?
Was the guy doing all the beheading at the beginning the MotH's father? Tobanaga and Mariko's father were there in the courtyard watching him kill those guys and Tobanaga stopped Mariko's father from intervening at that point? But now we're to assume he did "fight back" at some point?
Do I have all of that right so far?
Then going back to last episode, what was Mariko's husband talking about when he referenced Mariko's family being shamed? He almost seemed like he was ashamed to be married to her because of her family history.
So the pregnant former friend of Mariko is the Mother of the Heir….
Tobanaga is "protecting the heir" but the mother of the heir is conspiring with Ishido?
Mariko's father killed MotH's father on Tobanaga'a order?
Was the guy doing all the beheading at the beginning the MotH's father? Tobanaga and Mariko's father were there in the courtyard watching him kill those guys and Tobanaga stopped Mariko's father from intervening at that point? But now we're to assume he did "fight back" at some point?
Do I have all of that right so far?
Then going back to last episode, what was Mariko's husband talking about when he referenced Mariko's family being shamed? He almost seemed like he was ashamed to be married to her because of her family history.
Stive said:
So "the Heir" isn't born yet? I guess I thought the heir was that kid in the first episode that they spoke to.
So the pregnant former friend of Mariko is the Mother of the Heir….
Tobanaga is "protecting the heir" but the mother of the heir is conspiring with Ishido?
Mariko's father killed MotH's father on Tobanaga'a order?
Was the guy doing all the beheading at the beginning the MotH's father? Tobanaga and Mariko's father were there in the courtyard watching him kill those guys and Tobanaga stopped Mariko's father from intervening at that point? But now we're to assume he did "fight back" at some point?
Do I have all of that right so far?
Then going back to last episode, what was Mariko's husband talking about when he referenced Mariko's family being shamed? He almost seemed like he was ashamed to be married to her because of her family history.
The heir is born. The council is rulling until he comes of age. The mother of the heir is Ochiba who has a pregnant sister in the modern story. Ochiba's previous name was Ruri, the daughter of Kurida, the former ruler. She lost her royal status when Mariko's father killed the ruler, changed her name, and became concubine to the new ruler the Taiko and gave him his only son. Mariko's family carries shame at her father killing Kurida.
https://www.fxnetworks.com/shogun-character-map
That was pretty embarrassing.
Yep. I really like this show a lot. Not sure why, but it is hard for me to keep up with who is who, and what's going on. I usually just feel lost for a bit, and figure it out laterEclipseAg said:
Great episode ... this show is really good, and I'm finally figuring out who is who and what's happening. LOL
I learned 2 unexpected lessons from this episode:
1) Japanese Shakespeare era plays really sucked
2) actors being useful idiots is a timeless tradition
1) Japanese Shakespeare era plays really sucked
2) actors being useful idiots is a timeless tradition
TresPuertas said:
anyone else disappointed that didn't turn in to an all out Japan-a-trois?
that would have been…… something
I thought that's what Toronaga meant by "translate". I was wrong.
Laughed at the "really good pour"..."and another excellent pour, well done" line.
So my understanding (perhaps it is obvious to everyone else) is that Ochiba was the daughter of the king from two kings ago. Toranaga manipulates Mariko's dad into killing the king, and they install a new king. New king has tried to knock up many women without success, then hits it off with Ochiba and she "miraculously" gets pregnant. We don't know who the real baby daddy is.
So my understanding (perhaps it is obvious to everyone else) is that Ochiba was the daughter of the king from two kings ago. Toranaga manipulates Mariko's dad into killing the king, and they install a new king. New king has tried to knock up many women without success, then hits it off with Ochiba and she "miraculously" gets pregnant. We don't know who the real baby daddy is.
I wonder if there is something about those pours that is actually special. And that maybe the actress doesn't know how to do it. After all, she obviously hasn't been practicing that for years.
Or if it really is a matter of doing 3 shakes and then a pour. Something anybody can do.
Or if it really is a matter of doing 3 shakes and then a pour. Something anybody can do.
I always heard it was something different if you shake it three times.aTmAg said:
Or if it really is a matter of doing 3 shakes and then a pour. Something anybody can do.
Yeah, that last episode was all over the place both in themes, characters and timelines.
Might have to rewatch.
Still excellent. The book was much clearer and definitive.
Might have to rewatch.
Still excellent. The book was much clearer and definitive.
aTmAg said:
I wonder if there is something about those pours that is actually special. And that maybe the actress doesn't know how to do it. After all, she obviously hasn't been practicing that for years.
Or if it really is a matter of doing 3 shakes and then a pour. Something anybody can do.
It's just training. The most modern day equivalent would be how a Sommelier is taught to pour and present wine. Except the Sommelier doesn't bang you after. Usually.
I also think there's an art to things like how much inner wrist she showed as she poured the sake. With the elaborate robes and focus on manners, to have a courtesan give a glimpse of skin while she served tea or sake was probably considered quite sexy.
Joan Wilder said:
I also think there's an art to things like how much inner wrist she showed as she poured the sake. With the elaborate robes and focus on manners, to have a courtesan give a glimpse of skin while she served tea or sake was probably considered quite sexy.
This is the closest to how the book explained it. The Japanese of that time revered poetry in movement - grace, and form. Like their writing, which wasn't just a way to convey information but an art. It's not so much the skin she showed but the way she held her wrist, the line of her kimono, the sweep of her eyelashes, was all a performance that a high-born samurai would find enchanting. A Westerner like Blackthorne just doesn't see, much less appreciate, any of that (and neither do we).
Good episode. The tension just keeps building.
I can't see how Toranaga gets out of this.
Yet I have heard the book is amazing, so I assume it's not a cheesy solution. Looking forward to it.
Yet I have heard the book is amazing, so I assume it's not a cheesy solution. Looking forward to it.
I'm not bummed at all that the son is dead. Of all the characters he annoyed me the most
That was great. Makes me realize I need to go back to the beginning and rewatch the episodes before the end.Teddy Perkins said:
Agreed. It's pretty dire. I also loved how they revealed the betrayal.aTmAg said:
I can't see how Toranaga gets out of this.
Yet I have heard the book is amazing, so I assume it's not a cheesy solution. Looking forward to it.
zap said:Agreed. It's pretty dire. I also loved how they revealed the betrayal.aTmAg said:
I can't see how Toranaga gets out of this.
Yet I have heard the book is amazing, so I assume it's not a cheesy solution. Looking forward to it.
I think Toranaga has a plan. He's known as very cunning. He's good at manipulating people to his needs without them knowing it.
Deleting in case it implies or spoils anything
For sure. I have an idea on what his plan might be, but I can't really elaborate since I'm sure it's in the book. (Which I have not read.)
Can we not guess on here.
I have not read the book. But I think Blackthorns reaction when the surrender was announced was interesting. That reaction was clearly out of place and my guess is he and Toranaga planned it. Similar to the dude in GoT acting out after seeing the zombie in front of everyone.
I have not read the book. But I think Blackthorns reaction when the surrender was announced was interesting. That reaction was clearly out of place and my guess is he and Toranaga planned it. Similar to the dude in GoT acting out after seeing the zombie in front of everyone.
One thing, I thought of was Toranaga to use the ship to shell the hell out of the castle. But that would be looked as an act of war against all of Japan, and I doubt Toranaga would allow it. Not to mention it would be cheesy to spring that on viewers, when we haven't seen them put the cannons back on the ship or anything.
Another possibility is that the betrayal is betrayal. That suddenly the half brother turns on Toranaga's side. But that seems damn unlikely as he insulted Toranaga to his face. None of that would have gone down that way if that were the case. And that is also cheesy. This show has not been cheesy at all so far.
So what if the half brother gets killed? What happens to his army? If Toranaga killed him, they would obviously side against him in revenge. But if the council killed him, then what? They would be in a tight spot. As they can assume to all be under the knife. So then they may side with Toranaga. So what if Toranaga kills him in a way that makes it look like the council did it?
Another possibility is that the betrayal is betrayal. That suddenly the half brother turns on Toranaga's side. But that seems damn unlikely as he insulted Toranaga to his face. None of that would have gone down that way if that were the case. And that is also cheesy. This show has not been cheesy at all so far.
So what if the half brother gets killed? What happens to his army? If Toranaga killed him, they would obviously side against him in revenge. But if the council killed him, then what? They would be in a tight spot. As they can assume to all be under the knife. So then they may side with Toranaga. So what if Toranaga kills him in a way that makes it look like the council did it?
I didn't think it was out of place. He's shown himself to be damn resilient and never gives up. Yet here is Toranaga apparently just giving up. I can see why he would be disgusted (especially when he himself would die too).LB12Diamond said:
Can we not guess on here.
I have not read the book. But I think Blackthorns reaction when the surrender was announced was interesting. That reaction was clearly out of place and my guess is he and Toranaga planned it. Similar to the dude in GoT acting out after seeing the zombie in front of everyone.
Pure speculation, never read the book or any other background. I'm thinking Mariko has some huge role to play in the end game, due to her relationship with the heir's mother.
Only thing that makes sense is that Toranaga saw surrender as the most expedient way to get brought into the castle so she be "activated" for whatever big purpose Toranaga told her about an episode or two ago.
I'd be shocked if Toranaga earnestly gave up, but maybe I'm missing something culturally with all the fate discussion.
This show is awesome with how it makes the situation more dire every episode while still making narrative progress. It doesn't feel like one of those shows that heaps more and more stuff on just to try to torture the viewer with no concern for the direction of the plot. Looking at you walking dead
Only thing that makes sense is that Toranaga saw surrender as the most expedient way to get brought into the castle so she be "activated" for whatever big purpose Toranaga told her about an episode or two ago.
I'd be shocked if Toranaga earnestly gave up, but maybe I'm missing something culturally with all the fate discussion.
This show is awesome with how it makes the situation more dire every episode while still making narrative progress. It doesn't feel like one of those shows that heaps more and more stuff on just to try to torture the viewer with no concern for the direction of the plot. Looking at you walking dead
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Mariko is an obvious one, but they did spend an entire scene and 2.5 episodes focusing on the head of the brothel, so I would think that she would integral to some plot device coming up. Reminds me of Littlefinger from GOT.h1ag said:
Pure speculation, never read the book or any other background. I'm thinking Mariko has some huge role to play in the end game, due to her relationship with the heir's mother.
Only thing that makes sense is that Toranaga saw surrender as the most expedient way to get brought into the castle so she be "activated" for whatever big purpose Toranaga told her about an episode or two ago.
I'd be shocked if Toranaga earnestly gave up, but maybe I'm missing something culturally with all the fate discussion.
This show is awesome with how it makes the situation more dire every episode while still making narrative progress. It doesn't feel like one of those shows that heaps more and more stuff on just to try to torture the viewer with no concern for the direction of the plot. Looking at you walking dead
Totally agree. I didn't mention it because I've got no idea how that storyline ends up tying in with the greater power struggle, but there's some meat on that bone for sure. The inclusion of sticks of time with the fate themes from the most recent episode have to be more than just coincidence. Everyone is running low on sticks and everyone is trying to figure the next move. I just haven't pieced it together yet.
Maybe I'll go back and focus on the tea house scenes in previous episodes. I know there are at least a few scenes with Kiku where it felt like color or inclusion for cultural perspective but could be hinting at something else I missed before.
Maybe I'll go back and focus on the tea house scenes in previous episodes. I know there are at least a few scenes with Kiku where it felt like color or inclusion for cultural perspective but could be hinting at something else I missed before.
Sorry, if already mentioned, but is this a single season show? Loving it very much.
It's being presented as a miniseries, so yes.Joseph Freshwater, Sr said:
Sorry, if already mentioned, but is this a single season show? Loving it very much.
Clavell did have other books set in Asia, though not in the same time period. Not sure how the numbers are, but would be cool if they adapted some of the others in the a similar vein
You are probably right. Mariko clearly plays a big part.
This show is great. I've never seen Cosmo Jarvis in anything before but he's so damn good.
I know just enough about the history of the Tokugawa Shogunate and the people these characters are based upon to know, generally, how it's going to end. It will be good, but it will be a gut punch.
I know just enough about the history of the Tokugawa Shogunate and the people these characters are based upon to know, generally, how it's going to end. It will be good, but it will be a gut punch.
Also, a really good "companion" film that is set a couple decades after this show is the movie Silence. If you like the cultural aspect of this show that depicts how Japan dealt with opening up to Western influences should also watch that movie.
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