Fantasy Tropes

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Definitely Not A Cop
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10:42a, 4/23/21
AG
What are your least or most favorite fantasy tropes?

For me, it gets pretty repetitive that many fantasy series (WOT, Eragon, even LOTR) starts out with the main character being a simple farm boy that attends the yearly festival right before his world turns upside down and he is sent on his journey.
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bluefire579
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10:50a, 4/23/21
AG
I've gotten away from chosen one stories in general. I don't mind a nobody getting thrown into national or global events, but not every protagonist needs to be the all powerful wizard or invincible badass warrior or one true king or whatever.
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C@LAg
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11:16a, 4/23/21
mine is the lack of any actual military strategy between team good and team bad.

always ridiculous pauses in action or decisions that serve the plot and not an actual victory.
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jenn96
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1:24p, 4/23/21
AG
The badass female warrior whose strength and skill is a total repudiation of the laws of physics. I'm fine with a magical explanation (although also overused) but don't tell me the petite adorable chick can defeat a known warrior guy who's twice her size with a sword because she's so tough.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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1:31p, 4/23/21
AG
Not limited to fantasy, but the heroes being taken to the bad guy's lair, the henchman/doorman guy announces their arrival, and the main villain, his back turned to them, puts his finger up, signaling them to wait for him to finish whatever he's doing, which is usually something stupid and unimportant.

Seriously, look out for this and you'll realize how much of a cliched trope it is.
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hunter2012
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In reply to bluefire579 • 2:09p, 4/23/21
AG
bluefire579 said:
I've gotten away from chosen one stories in general. I don't mind a nobody getting thrown into national or global events, but not every protagonist needs to be the all powerful wizard or invincible badass warrior or one true king or whatever.
There's a Japanese light novel series that you might like called Goblin Slayer. It's about the "ever after" in fantasy, the savior/hero is actually just a background character to the main story. The main character is basically a glorified pest exterminator, with the main story being about that while the world might be saved there will always be day to day evils that must be dealt with. It's been a pretty interesting story so far and the main character is just a guy that has developed his fighting skills towards killing goblins(the lowliest of evil creatures), if anything overpowered happens it's usually just him making use of the environment or circumstances. They've made a show out of it, but the books are the source material. It does turn a lot of fantasy tropes on the head.
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israeliag
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2:14p, 4/23/21
AG
All white cast.
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israeliag
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2:16p, 4/23/21
AG
Less kidding, although kind of along the same lines, is "monocultures". Like all dwarves are gruff and smiths, all elves are fancy schmancy, all orcs are dumb brutes. Applies to most genre including sci-fi. Give me diversity of personality throughout the different races/regions/planets.
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Eliminatus
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5:37a, 5/8/21
AG
Deus ex machina in general.

Captain Marvel arriving at the final fight with Thanos, TRex in first Jurassic park eating the raptors at the end, the gotdamn Eagles in LOTR.....the list goes on and on. Books too like Sword of Time.

I was fine with it for vast majority of life but as of late I have started to hyperfocus on it for some damn reason and it is undermining a lot of stuff for me if I am not in a complete "turn off brain" mode. I can still enjoy the general entertainment of it all but maybe it is just the stuff that manages to not use it that stands out so much to me and downplays the stuff that does.
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Madmarttigan
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In reply to Eliminatus • 6:08a, 5/8/21
AG
That happens in almost any novel or movie at some point.

Someone gets their powers, someone arrives from a journey, someone finds the item that changes the war etc etc

Sometimes it falls flat a la Captain Marvel in Endgame probably because she just sucks, but if you didn't feel anything in the portal scene then you are a strange one.

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Al Bula
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6:30a, 5/8/21
AG
The orphan hero or dead parents trope. I challenge the notion that to be great you have to have had an upbringing without parents.
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G Martin 87
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In reply to israeliag • 6:53a, 5/8/21
AG
israeliag said:
Less kidding, although kind of along the same lines, is "monocultures". Like all dwarves are gruff and smiths, all elves are fancy schmancy, all orcs are dumb brutes. Applies to most genre including sci-fi. Give me diversity of personality throughout the different races/regions/planets.
Star Trek usually does a good job with this. The non-human race/species will have a defining characteristic of course, but individual characters still exhibit different personalities, goals, and conflicts. Vulcans, Klingons, Cardassians, even Ferengi at times.
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G Martin 87
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7:18a, 5/8/21
AG
The Big Dumb Object and Living Worlds tropes are ubiquitous in sci-fi: Rama, Ringworld, Dyson spheres, Gaia, Avatar, the giant space amoeba and the Doomsday machine, even the Monolith (albeit on a smaller scale.) Giant abandoned ruins inexplicably left by a long dead forerunner race, strange magic items (whether "dumb" or not) whose purpose is a complete mystery, and untranslatable scrolls purported to contain the secret to everything serve similar plot functions in fantasy lit.
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Al Bula
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9:58a, 5/8/21
AG
There's no literature or entertainment anymore that isn't comprised of tropes. The best writers are able to subtlety navigate tropes and stay away from the most overused ones, or put a spin on old ones.
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YouBet
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9:58a, 5/8/21
AG
The fact that no one has ever seen a female dwarf.
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FightinTexasAg15
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In reply to C@LAg • 10:13a, 5/8/21
AG
C@LAg said:
mine is the lack of any actual military strategy between team good and team bad.

always ridiculous pauses in action or decisions that serve the plot and not an actual victory.


Another reason the last season of game of thrones was subpar. Whoever the military strategists that designed the Battle of Winterfells defenses were should have hanged
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Eliminatus
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In reply to FightinTexasAg15 • 10:21a, 5/8/21
AG
FightinTexasAg15 said:
C@LAg said:
mine is the lack of any actual military strategy between team good and team bad.

always ridiculous pauses in action or decisions that serve the plot and not an actual victory.


Another reason the last season of game of thrones was subpar. Whoever the military strategists that designed the Battle of Winterfells defenses were should have hanged
Mind numbingly bad. Criminally so. Damn near literal jaw dropping.



A quick recap on it. Nice vid. Keeps it simple and concise and well.....simple because this should not have been hard. Common sense. Or so I thought.
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superunknown
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In reply to Eliminatus • 10:44a, 5/8/21
AG
Eliminatus said:
Deus ex machina in general.

Captain Marvel arriving at the final fight with Thanos, TRex in first Jurassic park eating the raptors at the end, the gotdamn Eagles in LOTR.....the list goes on and on. Books too like Sword of Time.

I was fine with it for vast majority of life but as of late I have started to hyperfocus on it for some damn reason and it is undermining a lot of stuff for me if I am not in a complete "turn off brain" mode. I can still enjoy the general entertainment of it all but maybe it is just the stuff that manages to not use it that stands out so much to me and downplays the stuff that does.


Isn't the idea of a super hero a deus ex machina in itself?
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gggmann
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10:45a, 5/8/21
AG
Prophesy
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Quad Dog
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In reply to Eliminatus • 2:58p, 5/8/21
AG
Deus ex machina is a big one I hate.
Similarly the hero can barely do something at the beginning, but then they can do the thing at the end jus tby trying harder. Make them earn it.
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GiveEmHellBill
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3:25p, 5/8/21
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That the bad guys always have British accents.
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AgPediRPh
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In reply to Definitely Not A Cop • 3:44p, 5/8/21
AG
Champ Bailey said:
main character being a simple farm boy that attends the yearly festival right before his world turns upside down and he is sent on his journey.
Willow immediately came to mind
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Madmarttigan
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In reply to Eliminatus • 4:22p, 5/8/21
AG
I understand they were going for cinematic effect but I don't even want to be reminded about how terribly horrible their battle plan was. Just one of the many complaints with the end sigh*
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Ulrich
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In reply to Madmarttigan • 7:12p, 5/8/21
tv1113 said:
That happens in almost any novel or movie at some point.

Someone gets their powers, someone arrives from a journey, someone finds the item that changes the war etc etc

Sometimes it falls flat a la Captain Marvel in Endgame probably because she just sucks, but if you didn't feel anything in the portal scene then you are a strange one.


It has to be earned though, and the audience has to see it being earned. That's what keeps it from being a deus ex machina.

Captain Marvel is virtually nonexistent in the Avengers series, then in the climactic battle of the final movie when all is lost she drops from the sky and easily destroys the giant ship. Ok, people also don't like her because she's arrogant and stiff, but think of the other characters.

We've watched Cap, Tony, Thor, Nat, Hawkeye, Wanda, Vision, Hulk, and all the rest fight Thanos and his minions. We've seen them lose, cope with losing, and rise stronger. CM just drops out of the sky in almost a parody of the origin of the phrase deus ex machina.
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DallasTeleAg
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9:43p, 5/8/21
Stew?

But really, the term "deus ex machina" is thrown around too much, in my opinion. Captain Marvel arriving in End Game is DEFINITELY deus ex machina. The portals are not. The writers had built up that scene since Infinity War, so it was a great reveal and it saved them, but it didn't come from nothing, nor was it just a convenient plot device.

Another example of this is Gandalf arriving to save Rohan in the Two Towers. Did he arrive in the nick of time? Yes. However, this was something you knew he was going to do because he told you he would. The stage had been set.

I would say my biggest problem with the LotR movies was how the army of the dead was used. Tolkien did a great job of exposition on that whole background, leading up to Aragorn finally leading the army of the dead. But they were not used as an "I win" button in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Just because an event is timely and turns a seemingly unwinnable situation into a victory does not necessarily mean it is deus ex machina. If it is the culmination of a cohesive plotline or character arc, then it is earned and means so much more. Immediately, Kalidan saying his 3rd Ideal in the Stormlight Archive comes to mind. Deus ex machina? I would not classify it as such.
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DallasTeleAg
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9:49p, 5/8/21
I know I have linked Sanderson's lectures a lot, but it is much easier to post the masterclass on the subject than it is to formulate an original opinion on the matter...

Start at 3:07, for anyone who is interested.

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Ulrich
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10:42p, 5/8/21
I have two.

One is unearned villains. Best example is probably from Batman vs Superman, but there are others. When the villain doesn't really appear until the very end of the movie and then is suddenly Uber powerful. Villains need buildup just like antagonists.

The second is the Mary Sue, a female character who is infallible, unbeatable, and generally perfect in every way. Rey from Star Wars is the best recent example, but I actually first got irritated by characters like that in Max Brand westerns where they were men. Perfect characters who do everything perfectly suck the drama out. Superman is closely related to this, he's the worst superhero because the only way any contest is close is if he's busy having a mopey existential meltdown. It's the Capable Man exaggerated to the point where it kills the story.
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YouBet
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In reply to Ulrich • 9:14a, 5/9/21
AG
Captain Marvel is deus ex machina because she's a product of the real world U.S. political climate at the time. The girl power scene in Endgame was also obviously added due to the same reason. For the record, this isn't abnormal and she's obviously not the first movie character that is a result of this. It's happened throughout film history.

However, she clearly looks wedged in along the way and most likely not part of the original story arc culmination which is why it feels awkward. On top of that, they created a physical manifestation of herself as a DEM in the form of a galactic pager. Lol.

In addition, they announced her as the most powerful superhero in Marvel to date which is counter to the comics. She's personification of virtue signaling. Probably would have been fine if she was better in the role, but she's also the weakest actor of any of the heroes to boot. Thus, she really stands out poorly in comparison.
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Ulrich
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In reply to YouBet • 10:13a, 5/9/21
Why they did it doesn't change that they did it. I'm not trying to derail.

If people create flaws in their own work by clumsily injecting politics into non political arenas, I'm mostly going to point out the flaws on their own merits rather than trying to fight the political battle. Mostly.
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Madmarttigan
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In reply to DallasTeleAg • 12:42p, 5/9/21
AG
Man I could listen to him talk for hours. How fun it would be to have him as a professor.
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AliasMan02
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In reply to israeliag • 2:17p, 5/9/21
AG
israeliag said:
Less kidding, although kind of along the same lines, is "monocultures". Like all dwarves are gruff and smiths, all elves are fancy schmancy, all orcs are dumb brutes. Applies to most genre including sci-fi. Give me diversity of personality throughout the different races/regions/planets.


D&D is pivoting away from this, hard. It's been interesting watching the reactions to it online because the extremes are so magnified in their representations. But a large faction of the old guard is enraged that orcs are no longer uniformly evil, for example.

D&D has gone so far to eliminate "race" as a gameplay mechanic in rules that are optional so far, but will certainly be the core rules in the next edition.
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The Debt
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5:37p, 5/9/21
I think ST did a decent job showing that not all Klingons are warhawks, some are scientists and philosophers. Same with the ferengi.

The cardassians were all spying snakes with different professions, but they were all submissive to Cardassia.
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Ulrich
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7:43p, 5/9/21
I don't really think of different species having different characteristics on a general level (ie Klingons are generally more violent than humans) as bad. Exploring the idea that the human perceptions of the world isn't the only way things have to be used to be an enlightened thing to do. Not so much the Klingon example, but within the ST universe humans received many "lessons" about the narrowness of their perceptions from various species.
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Ulrich
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7:48p, 5/9/21
One concept that I will admit to having a little trouble with is the convenient cannon fodder species. I don't know if it has a name, but it's either orcs, robots, Nazis, insects, or something else significantly different enough from what we recognize as a "good person" that it's ok to kill the them en masse with no pangs of guilt.

The orcs and Nazis are purely evil, the robots and insects lack a soul. So it's ok to kill them by the thousand to demonstrate the hero's prowess.

Do I enjoy a guiltless kill fest? Yeah. But the part of me that studies philosophy raises a little red flag.
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The Debt
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In reply to Ulrich • 8:12p, 5/9/21
I will add insects into that. You have the presumption that insects are soulless and lacking culture. But usually in literature they have an intelligence, like Starship Troopers or Ender's Game.
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