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*** ZACK SNYDER'S JUSTICE LEAGUE ***

28,582 Views | 431 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Ulrich
TCTTS
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

They clearly set it up when they brought back Superman.

In Endgame, Tony literally spends what seems like a few hours one night and somehow figures out time travel without further explanation.

Let's not pretend one is good and the other is ridiculous.

In fact, travelling faster than the speed of light (which yes, is impossible) actually would mess with time, whereas whatever Tony did is literally just handwaved away. We see a 3D projection of something that somehow passes for an explanation.

Your obvious DC hate boner and Marvel bias is showing with that one.

Tony figures out time travel based on the info Scott gave him, from actually having been in the Quantum realm. In other words, Scott's real-world experience gives Tony a new perspective by which to come at the problem. Is it ridiculous that he then figured it out in one night? Sure. But the filmmakers at least go to the trouble of properly setting it all up and then very clearly explaining the rules and implications.

In that sense, it legitimately *is* less ridiculous than what Justice League attempts because of the context provided and the stakes that are made crystal clear. Again, I'm not talking about the science itself. I'm talking about the effort on behalf of the filmmakers to give the audience a general understanding and proper expectations.

As for traveling near the speed of light, though, if you really *do* want to get technical with it, the only time traveling that Flash could technically do is forwards not backwards. Traveling near the speed of light would cause him to age slower than everyone else, a la Interstellar. In that sense, time would move slower for him and faster for everyone else, which would, for all intents and purposes, make him a time traveler. But there's no going back in time via fast-as-light travel. At least with the Quantum realm, and quantum mechanics in general, we don't yet know enough about that field to know that we can't somehow utilize quantum technology to travel back in time.

Ha, and re: my "DC hate boner," I've gone out of my way to compliment aspects of MoS and BvS here on the board in recent weeks, after my rewatches of each. That, and I even made an attempt to not be completely negative in my rant on the previous page (which, again, is more of schtick than anything) by saying I really like the Batman/Affleck aspect in these movies, with a follow-up saying I genuinely like Snyder as a person. But if my hate boner is still irrational or unfair, your devotion to and excuse making for things like DCEU and the prequels is just as bad, only on the other end of the spectrum.

It's all good, though, and that's one of the reasons I like you. Otherwise, may we unite in our love of Avatar, Succession, and the myriad other things we *do* agree on on this board.
TCTTS
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Champ Bailey said:

YouBet said:

Champ Bailey said:

TCTTS said:

How did they set it up when they brought back Superman? Legit curious.


He started too late and the cube touched the water, so he sped up and reversed time to get to it.


I noticed that but didn't connect he had slightly reversed time here.


I think he mentioned right before they tried it that time gets weird as he gets close to light speed. But he mumbles and talks fast, so I could see how one could miss it.

Yeah, totally missed that as well. That's on me. Consider me in the camp of not being able to make sense at times of his speed-mumbling, and just being generally confused by what was happening at any given moment in this movie.
Philip J Fry
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I hate to be that guy, but moving at the speed of light does not change the direction of the arrow of time.
TCTTS
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(Bingo.)
YouBet
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Snyder probably shot himself in the foot by mentioning the speed of light. I'm guessing he used that as an anchor for the general audience to somehow relate to Flash's power.

Flash can manipulate time outside of normal human understanding of physics and it has nothing to do with the speed of light from what I recall. So, Snyder created unnecessary confusion here.

It's a comic book. Just make Flash able to change time and be done with it. I mean, my god, we have literal Gods and magic rings and sh^t. Why is he hanging on to that particular human theory?
YouBet
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What human theory is Superman getting powers from a yellow sun? Is he really Photosynthesis Man?
Madmarttigan
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You know you are being a terd when you are arguing the science of time travel in a comic book movie and critiquing one but not the other. They are both complete BS for gods sake. Time travel has always been insane from a movie perspective. Also comparing time travel in a comic book movie to Interstellar .... lol
Formerly tv1113
Brian Earl Spilner
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Philip J Fry said:

I hate to be that guy, but moving at the speed of light does not change the direction of the arrow of time.


A man made of "steel" couldn't actually fly either. But no outrage there for MoS.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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TCTTS said:

(Bingo.)
You clearly are not a fan, yet you always post inane stuff in here.

Just ignore the thread, dude
Brian Earl Spilner
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Quote:

Traveling near the speed of light would cause him to age slower than everyone else, a la Interstellar. In that sense, time would move slower for him and faster for everyone else, which would, for all intents and purposes, make him a time traveler. But there's no going back in time via fast-as-light travel.


I guess since you're getting all "The Debt" about it...

He is moving faster than the speed of light. He even says it twice right before he does it.

This essentially gives them free license to reverse time because he's already doing something impossible. (Ie. the quantum realm)
Brian Earl Spilner
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He actually watched the movie.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

He actually watched the movie.
I've watched the first 90 minutes on Torrent, can I write 37.5% of a post about my feelings so far on this thread or will I be cast asunder by the mighty defenders of DCEU?
Brian Earl Spilner
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tv1113 said:

You know you are being a terd when you are arguing the science of time travel in a comic book movie and critiquing one but not the other. They are both complete BS for gods sake. Time travel has always been insane from a movie perspective. Also comparing time travel in a comic book movie to Interstellar .... lol


(Bingo.)
Brian Earl Spilner
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Fat Bib Fortuna said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

He actually watched the movie.
I've watched the first 90 minutes on Torrent, can I write 37.5% of a post about my feelings so far on this thread or will I be cast asunder by the mighty defenders of DCEU?


Should I start a thread for only positive reviews?
Fat Bib Fortuna
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Fat Bib Fortuna said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

He actually watched the movie.
I've watched the first 90 minutes on Torrent, can I write 37.5% of a post about my feelings so far on this thread or will I be cast asunder by the mighty defenders of DCEU?


Should I start a thread for only positive reviews?
If you want, I found it quite liberating.
Brian Earl Spilner
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You actually should post your thoughts, btw. The trolling and joking got tired but now that you've actually seen [part of] it, I'm curious.
MBAR
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TCTTS said:

I'm half-joking. Chill. It's not that he can time travel. I have no problem with him or anyone in Endgame traveling through time. I just found it hilarious that the key to time travel, in this instance, was simply wanting to really, really hard. At least Endgame put in the effort to explain how it works, set the ground rules, etc, and went through the motions of Tony actually doing the work prior. They earned the ability. Here, there was zero mention or setup or explanation, and then he just concentrated *really* hard this time - after Bruce telling him twice prior that he was going to have to run faster than he'd ever run for two previous missions. I'm not complaining about the science. I'm complaining about the terrible setup and execution. There's a difference.


I mean I don't think they set up very well in endgame. They told Tony they needed to time travel, he said it was impossible, then he went into his lab and.....TRIED REALLY HARD...and it was suddenly possible. I didn't care I either instance because that's just what you accept with these movies. You except that impossible **** happens because that's the premise for genre. Endgame is obviously a much better movie, don't get me wrong. I just think your criticism on this is really unfair. You can think this movie is trash. It's just not because of how they executed time travel at all.
Lathspell
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At the end of the day, I thought Snyder's grittiness worked well for Watchmen. Really liked that movie and have seen multiple times.

For the DCEU, it has fallen flat for me. The ONLY DCEU movie I actually have any desire to watch again is Shazam, and that boggles my mind. There have been great things sprinkled here and there. I am one of those who REALLY likes Batfleck. I thought he made a fantastic grizzled Batman/Bruce Wayne, and I loved his brutality.

I will be interested to see what James Gunn does with Suicide Squad. The mere fact that the MCU put out a movie about a bunch of obscure goofy characters in space, trying to find out something to do about a magic rock, and it was so far and away better than anything the DCEU has attempted, is pretty funny to me.
MBAR
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Philip J Fry said:

I hate to be that guy, but moving at the speed of light does not change the direction of the arrow of time.


Doesn't he say he needs to break the speed of light? Which obviously we assume is impossible so we have no idea the effects.
MBAR
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Honestly it isn't a proper comic book movie thread until we argue the physics
Philip J Fry
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Philip J Fry said:

I hate to be that guy, but moving at the speed of light does not change the direction of the arrow of time.


A man made of "steel" couldn't actually fly either. But no outrage there for MoS.


To be fair, I always figured spinning the earth backwards would have been pretty destructive to the planet. Does spinning the earth backwards also cause time to reverse on Mars or across the universe? I never understood it as a kid....still don't as an adult.

How time changes across the universe because of one person moving a certain speed would make for an interesting marvel movie.
Another Doug
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Tried to watch, just boring and blah, makes you appreciate the quality of almost all the marvel movies.
PatAg
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Disliking the majority of the movies put out by DC lately doesn't mean you have a hate boner for DC. It means you don't enjoy poor filmmaking
AgfromHOU
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It's not about "defending the DCEU".

It's about not **** posting when you say you have no desire to watch the movie, on the thread about the movie.

I would be making the same post if it wasn't a DC thread. I know that's what I mostly post on, but I read almost everything on this board. I actually enjoy your posts on things like the Star Wars thread.

If you want to finish the movie and criticize it, by all means do so. All movies, including Marvel movies, and especially CBMs in general, deserve their fair share of criticism.
AgfromHOU
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I've enjoyed all of them, but only truly "loved" Wonder Woman, Shazam, and ZSJL.

I'm very much looking forward to The Batman's universe and the changes they'll be making to the main DCEU with Suicide Squad, Black Adam, and the GLC. I'm super pumped about Aldis Hodge as Hawkman in the Black Adam movie.

https://instagr.am/p/CL-WIuZj1Sw
AgfromHOU
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25k fan reviews, at 96% audience score

209 critic reviews, at a 74% critic score

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zack_snyders_justice_league

I think this is about the best possible scenario for this movie. It was never going to get Avengers level critic reviews (even though I personally like it more than those) and there's not a box office to please. I doubt they release the HBO Max viewership/membership numbers, too.

I'm actually rewatching it with my wife as a weekly tv series now and I'm finding it hit a little better this way. Watched the first two parts last night and will watch a new part each Friday until the epilogue, which we will probably skip because it's terrible.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Finally. Just what I'd been looking for.

Fat Bib Fortuna
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Well, I feel I should start off by saying, I absolutely love Man of Steel. It's in my top 5 superhero movies of the 21st century along with GOTG, the Winter Soldier, the Dark Knight, and Endgame. So anything with that version of Superman in it, is exciting for me. Henry Cavil is a wonderful Superman and I will be really sad if he never gets a shot to play that role again.

It's good that they expanded the story lines for Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg, but I don't care any more about any of those characters as a result.

I've had my debate with you already about the quality of the Aquaman standalone film - many of you are on the side of it being "big dumb fun" and me being on the side of it being really, really dumb. I love Jason Momoa from GoT and his real-life persona, but that's as far as my interest goes.

I don't like nerdy awkward Flash interpretation, I like the overconfident Flash like the version Michael Rosenbaum voiced in the JL/JLU cartoon. That arc is more interesting for me personally. You get a lot more context about who/why Cyborg exists, and as a parent I can appreciate Silas's decision to do whatever it takes to bring his son back, but I don't know, in a world where I know there's a Batman, a Superman, and a Wonder Woman, a half computer guy just isn't that interesting to me.

It's a lot like my never answered question about any version of King Kong - every time they go to Skull Island, everyone's so fascinated by a giant monkey and have to bring him back to the US, but nobody thinks even once about bringing back one of the dinosaurs or other monsters - which no living person has ever seen any version of. Why are they so fascinated by a giant monkey but not a T-rex?

The opening giant battle scene just feels too overdone. Twenty years ago seeing all the Elves/Humans fighting Sauron's forces in that sort of landscape was mind blowing and is still cool to me today. Seeing two CGI armies running at each other twenty years feels like it's just a retread of a lot of other movies. Even the fight in Endgame felt dumb in some ways - technology from the entire universe and most of Thanos's army is just running on the ground? C'mon, Brolin. And beyond that, where the hell are all these combatants now in Justice League? Is Zeus dead? Why did the Green Lanterns allow the earthlings to keep all three mother boxes? That seems like incredibly poor decision making for an intergalactic guardian organization. Leave one on earth, take the second to the home of the Corps, and drop the third one in a black hole.

To echo TC's rant, it feels impossibly long, like I'm watching an unedited version of it and it makes me really appreciate the job an editor does to trim a film down to only the good stuff. It's interesting to see more scenes from a lot of actors I like, but I don't feel like it's adding to my level to enjoyment from the first film, which was really low.

On the expansion of the villains, I don't know that I have an opinion on Steppenwolf being better or worse this time around; at least he's not saying "Mother" like it's a drinking game this time. I realize a large number of superhero movies have CGI villains, and it's not fair to judge DC's world building based on Marvel's, but neither Darkseid nor Steppenwolf feel the least bit threatening because they don't do anything to anyone I care about. Steppenwolf should kill a hero to make him seem legit - throw in Robin or Nightwing or Hawkgirl - or whoever and have them try to fight him alone early in the movie and get killed.

As for all the Whedon bashing, I haven't read many of the allegations, but based on what I have seen, it certainly appears he is qualifying for a spot in the "incredible creative, terrible person" category of Hollywood. That said, I'm not sure why he needs to get repeatedly bashed for his version, other than for his decision to take the job at all, which definitely put him in a lose-lose situation. The real villain in that whole deal was Warner Brothers for refusing to delay the release date after Snyder wisely left to deal with his family tragedy, and then hiring someone whose style is the 100% polar opposite of Snyder's to finish the project.



AgfromHOU
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Interesting Variety article about sequels and whether or not WB will give Snyder another go at Justice League.

Disclaimer: he is a fan of the movie after watching it

https://variety.com/2021/film/columns/will-zack-snyder-be-invited-to-make-a-justice-league-sequel-1234935269/

Quote:

It's not an art film, for God's sake, but it's a studio blockbuster made by someone who imprints his personality on every scene and means every scene.


Quote:

Up until now, Warner Bros. has stated that it will continue to make films in the DC Extended Universe without Zack Snyder. Yet Warners now finds itself in a strange position. In 2017, the studio turned its back on Snyder and trashed his vision. Yet it also, in a way, then gave him a second chance. "Zack Snyder's Justice League" is the movie that shows us, at last, what the DCEU could be.


Quote:

Now that that's happened, to leave Snyder by the wayside seems not merely unjust; it strikes me as foolhardy. The Warner Bros. executives will, of course, look at the numbers at how well the film performs on HBO Max. I suspect the news there will be good. But this can't be a decision based simply on numbers. The mobilization of fans behind #ReleaseTheSnyderCut was kind of awesome; they were comic-book-movie geeks who moved a mountain. And now that we've seen the results, their passion to do it again may be even greater. Whatever plan Warner Bros. now has in place, the reality is that plans can change. Minds can change. After "Zack Snyder's Justice League," on what planet would an executive have to be on not to want Snyder to make a "Justice League" sequel? Only on a planet where even the potential artistry of mainstream moviemaking must always take a back seat to corporate control.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Watched last night.

I've posted my thoughts on Man of Steel and Batman Versus Superman before, but let's just say I really enjoyed both. I liked what Snyder was doing with his overall vision ... and then 2017's Justice League came. It was a movie that previews made me believe it would be dogcrap, but because I have been a life-long fan of Batman and Superman and grew up watching Justice League Saturday morning cartoons, I was going to see the movie. At the time I was unaware of everything that went on behind the scenes in the making of that original version of the movie.

I never expected the campaign to get Synder's original vision released would ever actually produce a movie. When news that Synder was actually working on completing his movie, I was kinda meh about it. It was really only in recent weeks that I garnered any real anticipation for what Synder was getting ready to release ... and now that I've watched it, I have very little negative things to say. My only real negative was not necessarily the epilogue itself, but how it was presented with little to no explanation upfront that it was telling something of a potential future (which dialogue seemed to imply for me as the sequence played out).

The story was essentially the same as in the 2017 movie, but this one gave us so much more exposition and explanation as to what was happening. One example - the original movie depicts the Queen launching the burning arrow with nary an explanation as to why this was important. The update provides back-story to the arrow, and lends credence to the line "She will" (know what the arrow means) which was in both versions by showing Diana using the arrow to find the chamber that essentially lays out Darkseid's entire history with Earth.

Something else this version shows quite clearly is that everyone of the nimrods at Warner Brothers who thought chopping up Synder's movie as they did should be fired. What they did to Cyborg's character is criminal. My wife and I both agreed the only thing we could recall of the character was "robot guy". I really liked the entirety of his back-story.

Now is this a masterpiece along the lines of Infinity War or Endgame? Sadly, nope. I say sadly due to my love of these primary DC characters. But I am happy that Synder finally got to complete his story, and that I finally got to see Darkseid on the "big" screen.

I'm planning to watch it again in its entirety tonight, and I hope this edition is released so that I can add it to my library (and I will re-watch it rather than the 2017 movie).
TCTTS
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Great breakdown, and I agree across the board.
AgfromHOU
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Re: the confident Flash

Wholeheartedly agree. His cameo in Suicide Squad showed that, but then they followed it up with him being awkward.

Goes to show why Wally West Flash (JL cartoon) is better than Barry Allen Flash (CW, DCEU).

Fun fact: Ryan Reynolds actually wanted to play Wally West in a movie, per him at a fan panel at SDCC a few years ago.
TCTTS
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I think the bigger question would be, could they get the *cast* back together? Snyder seems like he'd play ball, but would Affleck and Cavill return? What about Ray Fisher after all the drama he's been through with WB and them cutting him from Flash's upcoming solo movie as a result? I think we're to the point where audiences will accept a second Batman doing his own thing in a simultaneous, separate iteration, and same goes for the potentially black Superman they have coming, the Phoenix Joker, etc. But I just wonder how plausible it is that they get this same cast to come back for a JL sequel or two, especially after those detailed plot breakdowns leaked, and both sequels having now been fully spoiled.
AgfromHOU
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I think Affleck can be swayed as long as he isn't the director and writer of his own movie.

I saw somewhere that Fisher would do whatever Snyder wants him to do, but you're right that his feud with WB and Walter Hamada could get in the way.

My feeling, granted I am not connected to anything or know anything the general public doesn't, is that if Snyder comes back then the band will come back together. There will have to be some sort of laying down the hatchet between Fisher and Hamada.

I think audiences just want good movies. The Joker had nothing to do with the universe and made a billion. The Batman has a lot of hype around it as well, then you saw how Aquaman made a billion and Shazam and Birds of Prey have good reviews (but not great box offices). There will always be questions (because of Marvel and Star Wars) to where this movie or that movie fit in the timeline/universe, but I actually really like this idea of a main universe and then other movies not beholden to that continuity to allow for more creativity.

Snyder has also said that a lot of the outline that was posted was before BvS had been abandoned by the time it came out and JL was getting started.

It's also interesting to me that most of the people who got rid of Snyder are no longer at WB, which could help.

I also want Snyder to come up with a different way to continue the universe, or have someone else plan it and let him film it.
TCTTS
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All good points.
 
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