New Guitar Day

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Lathspell
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11:36p, 12/10/23
AG
I'm always a fan of buying a decent guitar for anyone looking to learn. The last thing you need is a guitar that is hard to play, or is a piece of crap.

That level of Epiphone should get you there, from everything I've heard. I've actually never played an Epiphone, so can't provide more input than that. If he's the one who picked it out, then that's as much input as I give anyone when looking to buy someone else a guitar; especially for their kid.
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Quincey P. Morris
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In reply to Slicer97 • 11:39p, 12/10/23
AG
It's a solid plan. As instruments, they're really not bad and can go from good to damned solid pretty quickly just replacing parts.

And I agree, a lot of kids bail on playing guitar over super cheap instruments that make it hard to learn. Epiphones are a quality instrument at a decent price that can be upgraded before moving on to something better.
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Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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In reply to Slicer97 • 8:41a, 12/11/23
AG
I had an Epi LP gold top that I sold to help buy my Gibson but it was a rock solid guitar and I actually had a hard time letting it go. I say go for it.
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slaughtr
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In reply to johnnyblaze36 • 8:49a, 12/11/23
AG
Luckily, I got a really good deal on it. I couldn't find your Ben Harper CC post, but I'll have to look again.
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rononeill
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12:42p, 12/11/23
Ive got a 2013 MIM HSS Strat that I picked up 3 years ago. I mostly noodle, do a lot of youtube blues lessons, play against backing tracks, occasionally focus on a specific song. I'm ready for guitar #2 and have around 2-3k to spend. I'm thinking an American Professional II Tele. But a Les Paul seems cool too. Yes, I know they're very different. I like the dirty-ness of the LP, but Im not sure I can get the quality in an LP that I can in a Telecaster at this price point. I'm pretty sure I'm the first person to have this dilemma - how would yall approach this life changing decision?

IB"whynotboth"
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maroon barchetta
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1:25p, 12/11/23
Looks like we went from Deal of the Day to Deal of the Hour all the sudden at Musician's Friend.

Maybe there will be something good!


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Lathspell
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In reply to rononeill • 1:46p, 12/11/23
AG
Now, you're in my arena.

A budget of $2-$3K is a budget that can get you an extremely nice guitar.

From that point, my next question would be what your thoughts are on modern vs vintage features. When we start getting into that price point for Fender Teles, you can basically buy anything you want.

  • Fender American Professional II
    • This is Fender's standard American guitar model with classic features, but with some modernized features. You will be getting Fender's American V-mod alnico pickups, and a polyurethane finish. This is a great guitar that will last you forever, if you take care of it. I personally prefer low output, hand-wound pickups; so would even replace these, but that's just my personal preference.
  • Fender American Ultra
    • This is Fender's more "premium" line of American guitars, that really just gives you a bunch of modern **** . Locking tuners, stainless steel frets, noiseless pickups (eww), body contours, etc. In my personal opinion, this model is not worth the price, and those noiseless pickups are sacrilegious, and should all be destroyed. But hey... to each their own.
  • Fender American Vintage II
    • If you are more into getting a Telecaster exactly like how they used to make them, then the Fender American Vintage guitars are the way to go. I am a huge fan of these guitars, because I am a vintage guitar fan. All components are made to replicate either the 50's or 60's models, with a few minor modern tweaks to make the more playable. These also have a nitro finish, though they do have a light poly undercoat to seal the wood. So they won't wear exactly like a fully nitro finish, but they definitely feel better in my hands.
  • Fender Custom Shop
    • In that price range, you could also find a used Custom Shop guitar. I own two Custom Shop Teles, and they are absolutely phenomenal instruments. One of them is a super heavy relic, and my other was a NOS finish (meaning there is no relicing, at all). These guitars should always come with the spec sheet detailing every detail. Unfortunately, if you are buying a used model, you will most likely not get a chance to play it. Any new Custom Shop guitar will be way outside of your budget. I bought my green CS Tele off Reverb, and it is great guitar. Really, the Fender Custom shop has very few duds.Most Fender Custom Shop guitars will feature a 100% nitro finish, CS handwound pickups, select wood with 1 or 2 piece bodes, AAA rosewood fretboards sorted for darkness, and necks that are usually either flamed maple or quartersawn. These usually also follow vintage specs to give you a fantastic vintage like guitar.

Honestly, the return on investment between an American Vintage II and a Custom Shop is very little. You definitely have some big diminishing returns, but I love my two guitars. I have an American Original Strat (what they called the vintage series a few years back), and that is a fantastic guitar. I also have a limited edition Dave's Guitar Shop thin skinned Strat that is absolutely fantastic, which I got for a great price.

On Lesters, you are basically looking at the LP Standard models, in that budget. From everything i've heard, the new management that took over around the 2020 timeframe made a point to focus on quality control, so they have been on point. These will be your classic style LP with dual PAF style humbuckers, nitro finishes, rosewood fretboards, and usually a 2-piece body. One of the biggest determining factors for most people comes down to the weight. Unless you are buying a custom shop reissue LP, the guitars will be weight relieved, but can still be a little on the heavier side. Definitely play a LP before purchasing one, because they are all so individually unique. I also generally prefer to replace the stock pickups with handwound, low output PAF replicas because I like that classic tone.

Please keep us updated on your search! I own 3 Teles, 2 Strats, and 2 LP's, so I definitely love the classics.

ETA: If you are looking for a Tele, it is important to know which year of Tele you are looking for. There is so much that goes into the tone of a Tele:
  • Ash vs Alder body
  • Rosewood vs Maple board
  • If Rosewood: slab vs lam
  • Steel vs brass saddles
  • Staggered vs flat magnets in the pickup
  • A5 vs A2 magnets

Different years of the vintage guitars will have different combinations of the above specs.
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rononeill
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2:20p, 12/11/23
Wow - lots to digest. I honestly dont know that much about the technical stuff... I played an American 60yr anniversary Tele at Rock N Robin last week and really liked it. I have no idea what it's specs were, but if I could do that with it being new, I'd be set. But I don't know that I know enough about the differences between the vintage set up and the modernized elements. I think I'm out on the American Ultra - that sounds like they took the Tele out of the guitar... I know the custom shop stuff is sweet, but I'd rather one day do my own if/when I know enough about what I want to dial it in per my specs - at that point I'd be commissioning art

I like the LPs for sure, but I play mostly seated and they just fit your lap funny. I'll end up with one one day, but I'm sort of less interested in the tradition of it as I am the look and sound - so a PRS or a Guild or something else like that might fit the bill on that day. Sound aside, I find the Guild Kim Thayil to be so fine looking.

So as far as these things go that you mentioned:

ETA: If you are looking for a Tele, it is important to know which year of Tele you are looking for. There is so much that goes into the tone of a Tele:
  • Ash vs Alder body
  • Rosewood vs Maple board
  • If Rosewood: slab vs lam
  • Steel vs brass saddles
  • Staggered vs flat magnets in the pickup
  • A5 vs A2 magnets

I was thinking new - so i guess the woods get driven by the finish... i was thinking the dark night setup, so that's got alder and rosewood laminate, I think.

By the way -- thank you for taking the time to write all that - I really appreciate it!
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Lathspell
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In reply to rononeill • 2:46p, 12/11/23
AG
Woods can be driven by the finish, but that's not set in stone. For modern Fenders, they usually do ash for see through finishes because it looks better than Alder. However, the two do differ tonally. Ash has much more variance on weight and tone, from my exerience. Alder is much more even, across the board. Alder body weight is usually very stable and within a small range. For Ash guitars, I have played some very heavy guitars, while my guitar is the lightest damn guitar I've ever played.

You would be fine with the American Pro II. I am just more of a purist, so really love the Vintage II series. If I were buying a production model Tele, that's the direction I would go.
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to rononeill • 3:02p, 12/11/23
rononeill said:

I like the LPs for sure, but I play mostly seated and they just fit your lap funny.


Mostly seated?

You need a Strandberg. Let noted session guitarist Tim Pierce tell you why.

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johnnyblaze36
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In reply to slaughtr • 5:12p, 12/11/23
AG
slaughtr said:
Luckily, I got a really good deal on it. I couldn't find your Ben Harper CC post, but I'll have to look again.
The first one is the rare lap steel skateboard guitar. I bought it in 2003 on the day they went on sale and they were supposed to produce 1,000. For whatever reason they canceled the run shortly after my order. I verified with the CEO of Cole Clark a few years ago that only 27 were made and in various protopyes (not sure how many but I have seen four different ones).





The second one I confirmed with the CEO that only 10 exist. The first was made and given to Ben for his 2003 dvd filming Live at the Hollywood Bowl in which he uses it to open the show with "Glory and Consequence".



As a massive fan of Ben, Xavier Rudd, and John Butler I've always dug the brand and the looks of all of their traditional models are beautiful imo. The pickups on the Hollywood Bowl one are great. I'm terrible at guitar but my buddy in Mike Campbell's band has shredded it many times and always raves about the sound.
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ravingfans
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In reply to Lathspell • 5:34p, 12/11/23
AG
100!! Whoop! Happy 100th!!!

Ok, now that I got that out of my system...



DallasTeleAg said:
ETA: If you are looking for a Tele, it is important to know which year of Tele you are looking for. There is so much that goes into the tone of a Tele:
  • Ash vs Alder body
  • Rosewood vs Maple board
  • If Rosewood: slab vs lam
  • Steel vs brass saddles
  • Staggered vs flat magnets in the pickup
  • A5 vs A2 magnets

Different years of the vintage guitars will have different combinations of the above specs.


Could you talk about some of the pro's and cons of the different choices for Tele's and what kind of resulting tone to expect?
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Lathspell
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In reply to ravingfans • 9:52p, 12/11/23
AG
100th? I'm not following.

As for the differences, there is a big one I missed with beveled vs flat magnets. Pros and cons? That is completely subjective and comes down to the tone you are looking for. Each difference ranges from very small, to a decent difference in tone. My personal experience is in different mixes and matches of all of these. The tones I have come to love generally come from playing guitars based on a particular year, with particular mixes of these options. However, if you have a guitar with a certain mix, and you are looking for more upper mids, or a warmer tone, then you can change some aspect to chase that particular sound.

I'm happy to share what i've come to learn, but I am in no means an expert on this stuff. This is only based on my limited personal experiences. Also, there are many out there who consider most of this to be imaginary. They would say you can't hear the difference in tone woods with electric guitars. Those people are stupid. =p

  • Ash vs Alder body
    • As I mentioned before, Ash seems to vary much more than Alder. Alder seems to be more balanced, though I tend to notice more upper mids coming out. Of course, that may be because the alder guitars I have played are generally guitars that push the upper mids, so a balanced tone wood would allow that to come through. My ash tele (which is extremely light) seems to be warmer and rounder, but very articulate.
  • Rosewood vs Maple board
    • Maple is harder, and therefore provides a brighter and snappier tone. I have found rosewood to be a little warmer, which I personally prefer on single coil guitars.
  • If Rosewood: slab vs lam
    • This is one you will find some of the most contention. I can't say there is a difference between the two, or that it just happened to be with the guitars I have played, but the lam boards I have seem to have a "woodier" and "airier" tone to the guitar, whereas the slab boards I have seem to have a more... straight forward tone? IDK, it's hard for me to describe the difference I seem to hear, and it could be other things about each guitar lending to those differences.
  • Steel vs brass saddles
    • Honestly, I don't have much experience with brass saddles. The Tele's I love all have steel saddles, so that's what I use. From what I have read, brass saddles have a more mellow attack, whereas steel saddles are brighter with a stronger attack.
  • Staggered vs flat magnets in the pickup
    • This has a big affect on overall tone, and simply changes the presence of the 6 strings in the overall sound of the guitar. Flat mags have much more bottom end presence, whereas the staggered pole pieces push the mids, and lose a lot of the low end behind.
  • Beveled vs Flat pole magnets
    • This one is also one that some say is voodoo, but others believe the non-beveled pole pieces tend to slightly pickup a bit of the magnetic field created from the adjacent strings, so you get a little more blending of the sound across the pickup. The beveled pole pieces have a narrower magnetic field, so they tend to sound more focused across each string. Again, some disagree with this, but many guitars swear by one or the other. I honestly haven't messed with enough to have an opinion. on the matter. Both of my main strats are beveled because they have my favorite set of pickups in them.
  • A5 vs A2 magnets
    • Most definitely a HUGE difference in tone. Alnico5 magnets are much higher output than Alnico2, making A5 push the front of the amp harder, tighten the low end, and will highlight the upper mids of the guitar. A2 pickups are much lower output, and tend to be warmer. A2 are what you generally find in most vintage pickups, like the PAF. I generally always want A2 magnets in all my guitars because I don't want my guitar hitting the front of the amp that hard. I also find them to be more pleasant and articulate.

At the end of the day, all of these add up to a whole guitar, and my favorite combinations usually come from my favorite guitars. A lot of it is also about balance when combining these factors. I have two amazing custom shop telecaster that sound very different from one another, but I love them both. They have:

Candy Green:
  • Alder
  • Rosewood - Lam
  • Steel
  • Staggered, beveled pole A2 magnets
Gold Sparkle:
  • Swamp Ash (extremely light)
  • Rosewood - Slab
  • Steel
  • Staggered, beveled pole A2 magnets

Both guitars have the Fender Custom Shop '63 Handwound pickups, which I absolutely love, but they both sound distinctly different. My Candy Green Tele has all the characteristics you would assume, based on the specs. My Gold Sparkle also has all the characteristics you would expect, based on the specs


ETA: After all of that, it then comes down to the amp itself. That is the beauty in all of this! The fun is finding that perfect mix that finally hits that sound you've had in your head for years. My teles through my Tone King is sweet bliss for my ears, and it makes me happy every day when I simply hit an A chord.
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maroon barchetta
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10:01p, 12/11/23
Guitar tech loaned me his guitar while he looked at mine today at my local music shop.

Had to ignore that low 7th string but I like how this thing plays and feels. Very cool.


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maroon barchetta
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In reply to Lathspell • 10:07p, 12/11/23
I also was not following that 100th reference.

Someone asking you for the 100th time?
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Quincey P. Morris
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10:52p, 12/11/23
AG
It's the 100th page of the thread.
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Lathspell
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In reply to Quincey P. Morris • 11:11p, 12/11/23
AG
Quincey P. Morris said:
It's the 100th page of the thread.
I didn't notice!
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ravingfans
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In reply to Lathspell • 12:19a, 12/12/23
AG
Kinda cool milestone after 3 yrs is all...
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ravingfans
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In reply to Lathspell • 12:25a, 12/12/23
AG
Great writeup and info--will keep this in mind as I start trying more out. Thanks!
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slaughtr
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In reply to johnnyblaze36 • 3:45a, 12/12/23
AG
johnnyblaze36 said:
slaughtr said:
Luckily, I got a really good deal on it. I couldn't find your Ben Harper CC post, but I'll have to look again.
The first one is the rare lap steel skateboard guitar. I bought it in 2003 on the day they went on sale and they were supposed to produce 1,000. For whatever reason they canceled the run shortly after my order. I verified with the CEO of Cole Clark a few years ago that only 27 were made and in various protopyes (not sure how many but I have seen four different ones).





The second one I confirmed with the CEO that only 10 exist. The first was made and given to Ben for his 2003 dvd filming Live at the Hollywood Bowl in which he uses it to open the show with "Glory and Consequence".



As a massive fan of Ben, Xavier Rudd, and John Butler I've always dug the brand and the looks of all of their traditional models are beautiful imo. The pickups on the Hollywood Bowl one are great. I'm terrible at guitar but my buddy in Mike Campbell's band has shredded it many times and always raves about the sound.


Way cool.
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Slicer97
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In reply to Lathspell • 8:34a, 12/12/23
AG
Fender doesn't use ash anymore except for special runs. For the clear/burst finishes, they've gone to roasted pine. The only way to get an ash body now is to go through the custom shop, buy a used one, or wait for a special run.
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Lathspell
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In reply to Slicer97 • 6:52p, 12/12/23
AG
I just saw that, yesterday, when I was looking at new Teles based on Rononeill's question.

You can still get Ash bodies on the American Vintage II series. I'm not as familiar with the tonal qualities of pine, though it is an early body wood used by Leo, back in the 50's.
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Slicer97
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In reply to Lathspell • 10:45a, 12/13/23
AG
Did not know that about the vintage series. Now I'm perplexed as to why Fender would offer up an ash body and then cover it up with a solid color. If I'm getting an ash body, I'd want to show off that grain with a natural or burst finish.
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AustinCountyAg
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3:12p, 12/13/23
watched this video today and immediately thought of this thread.

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Quincey P. Morris
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8:06p, 12/14/23
AG

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Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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In reply to Quincey P. Morris • 6:00a, 12/15/23
AG
Whose board is that?
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Quincey P. Morris
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In reply to Some Junkie Cosmonaut • 7:42a, 12/15/23
AG
No idea. Saw it posted on a guitar page. I'd have ended reading it if I was at whatever show that is though.
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Slicer97
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9:15a, 12/15/23
AG
Just ordered MiniSlicer's Epi Les Paul from Sweetwater. Should be here by the middle of next week.

I'll have to play it some, but now I'm thinking about getting the Latte fade version of the same axe for myself. Or a nice pedalboard and power supply. GAS is a very real thing.
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to Slicer97 • 10:34a, 12/15/23
Yes it is.
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Cynic
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10:37a, 12/15/23
Do you all buy guitars online without playing them? If so are you able to return easily if you don't like it?

Reason I ask is I've gone to some guitar shops and played on very high dollar guitars and some of them play like junk. It seems really hit or miss. The problem is there aren't many guitar shops left and if I want to play on a lot of guitars I have to drive a ton. Plus most shops seem to sell mostly the cheap stuff.

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Quincey P. Morris
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In reply to Cynic • 11:02a, 12/15/23
AG
It's probably sacrilege, but I have played precisely one of my high dollar purchases in person before buying it. I've had pretty good luck, but it could also be that the ones in the stores are in need of a good setup.

For online purchases, the smart money is to stick to reverb where you get some protection and some of the better retailers. I know Swee****er will do a lot to keep customers happy.

I think a lot of stores have stopped with high dollar stuff to an extent because people will walk off with it. I think there was a story here in Houston in the last few weeks about some woman going to different shops and just bolting out the door. I think she'd stolen somewhere around $10k worth of instruments in just a few days.
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Lathspell
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In reply to Cynic • 11:34a, 12/15/23
AG
I've purchased some fairly high dollar guitars off Reverb (the highest being about $3,200), and have had good experiences at this point. If I have a chance to play in person, then I would always choose that route. However, I personally like purchasing used guitars because you can find such a great deal. As long as you are buying guitars with a good market, you can easily resell it if you don't like it. You would be out the 5% to Reverb and taxes. If you are buying it from an individual, then they will not take it back if you just don't care for it. If they misrepresented it or lied about it, then you involved Reverb if they won't take it back or refund some money.

For example, I ended up buying (2) Gibson ES-330 guitars back in 2020 for $2,700 each. I ended up loving one and not caring for the feel of the other. I turned around and resold the other for $2,900, so I was out some taxes on the overall experience. Granted, that ES-330 was a VOS Olive Drab Green 330, and now they show to be going for around $4,500. I wish I had held onto it for a few years.

This is just the risk of buying off Reverb.

Most legit retailers will easily accept returns. CME, Sweetwater, and others will usually take a guitar back if you receive it and it just doesn't meet your expectations. Also, keep in mind that when you are purchasing a guitar for over $2,000 from an online retailer, you should speak with an actual person. Talk about what you are looking for. Ask their actual opinion on the specific instrument. Ask if there is something else in stock that everyone thinks plays extremely well. Ask them what your options are if you don't like the guitar.

If you see a guitar on Reverb from one of these retailers, just call them and buy direct from them. They will usually let them go for less, and you are generally safe buying from a legit company. I actually found my 60 RI Les Paul while searching Reverb, and found it at the Tone Shop in Addison. When i came to down a week later, I ran by the shop to play it and ultimately purchase it for a good deal (less than they had it on Reverb).
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Lathspell
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11:12a, 12/16/23
AG
NGD! Well... yesterday was, but it didn't get here until around 6:00PM, so it was too dark for pictures.

Played it for a while after setting it up. First of all, I am beginning to believe no one knows how to properly setup a guitar. I have bought so many nice guitars off reverb for a good price, and every one of them seems to be poorly setup. I'm thinking these people are spending a lot of money on a guitar, and then deciding to sell it because they don't think it is a very good guitar, due to how it plays. There was literally no relief in the neck of this guitar, and the action was way too low. I do not see how the previous owner played through all the fret buzz.

I was immediately surprised by how light this guitar is, for the size. The body size is definitely larger than any of my non ES guitars. It still feels comfortable in my lap, but I am also 6ft tall. This is also a very resonant guitar, with great sustain for a bolt-on neck.

Love the finish of this guitar, and really love the very light relic work Novo seems to do on their guitars. Nothing is overstated, but it just feels like a very nicely worn in guitar.

The first critique I always give a guitars is on the neck, fretboard, and fretwork. You can definitely tell these are hand made and given close attention to detail. The fretwork, nut work, fretboard, and neck all feel absolutely superb. Definitely at the top of the list across all my guitars when it comes to feel. The only reason I would put my relic'd Tele over this one is because I just prefer 6105 frets for the slightly greater height. However, I do really like the 6125 frets on this, and prefer them to medium jumbo frets.

The finish and relic work on the back of the neck is absolutely superb. For anyone who has not played a relic'd neck... you just won't get it.

The pickups sound fantastic, but they are not stock. Apparently, he had replaced the stock pickups with a Ron Ellis 50B in the bridge and a Ellisonic P-90 in the neck (approximately $375 each). These definitely sound fantastic. They also seem to be wired to a 4-way switch, which I have never played with before. Basically, the two middle selections on the switch are both pickups in series and both pickups in parallel. For those who don't know, the standard for a middle selection is parallel. I don't know about this setup. I'll play around with it and see if it is something I actually use. On a tele style setup, I'm so used to neck/parallel/bridge, so adding another selection really slows me down when flipping around. Both pickups in series just seems to be too boomy and not really a tone I would use. I also kind of want to get a nickel cover for the P-90, because that's what I see most Novos using.

I will also be installing a treble bleed circuit in this thing as soon as I can; probably today because I need to change the strings from 10's to 9's. When rolling down the volume, I am losing a lot of top end, causing the tone to become immediately muddied. Both my Teles have the treble bleed circuits in them, and it makes it so nice to roll volume off with the guitar knob.

Overall, I'm very pleased with this guitar. It stands on its own with my other custom shop guitars, and I am looking forward to really putting it through the ringer this weekend. I woudl be very interested in looking into the Mirus J model with gold foil pickups...




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Lathspell
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11:13a, 12/16/23
AG
Somehow double posted...
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maroon barchetta
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11:26a, 12/16/23
That's a really cool guitar!
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