New Guitar Day

698,147 Views | 6354 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by maroon barchetta
jvd2002
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AG
Has anyone had the opportunity to play a Santa Cruz Guitar? I've been doing some research on them and they are so fascinating to me…any thoughts?

https://santacruzguitar.com/story
Quincey P. Morris
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AG
I'm not sure I understand how they're using a ruling in Germany to do anything other than stop these makers from selling in Germany and the EU. Hell, I'd think the fact that they've done absolutely nothing to defend the shape for decades would be a big problem in the US.
maroon barchetta
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Quincey P. Morris said:

I'm not sure I understand how they're using a ruling in Germany to do anything other than stop these makers from selling in Germany and the EU. Hell, I'd think the fact that they've done absolutely nothing to defend the shape for decades would be a big problem in the US.


Maybe this is aimed at Thomann/Harley Benton?
maroon barchetta
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I have not yet watched this

Quincey P. Morris
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AG
Just watched the first few minutes. Interesting that they're trying to claim the shape as art. I don't see this working for them overall. In addition trying to base this all on a default judgment in a suit against a seller on AliExpress is absurd.
AggieTJ
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AG
Since the news of the case in Germany dropped, Fender has gone after some small domestic manufacturers as well. I think this is all just grandstanding. Betcha PRS and Suhr didn't get letters yet.

Pick on the little guys, and back them into a corner to settle for a licensing agreement for Strat-style guitars. This will force everyone else to follow suit and give Fender a new stream of income for the price of a little lawfare.
Hub `93
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AG
Just about to ask you guys about this, I'm not a guitarist, but I do like watching Phil's videos (some Rabea, Tim Pierce, and Fluf vids, too). This is just a bad look, especially after wiping out G&L.
maroon barchetta
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I watch on a semi-regular basis:

Anderton's (they won't touch this topic)
Phil
Tim
Rick
Rhett Shull
Mary Spender
Darrel Braun - Lathspell's favorite
Paul Davids - sometimes
KDH - rarely
Casino Guitars - they will be on this if they are not already
Alamo Music Center - not sure if they will touch this one

I would guess half of them don't touch this topic
Garrelli 5000
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AG
I think that this is going to backfire spectacularly for Fender. They'll survive, but they really stepped on on a rake with 1 foot and their own dicks with the other.

They've lost this battle previously in the US and won't win it this time either. What will happen is the other big names are going to start fighting for the little guys that don't move enough product to make a meaningful dent to the big guys on a company per company basis.

Right or wrong, they're going to come out of this looking like Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds. Still gorgeous, still sell product, but people will see if an alternative is available that can move just as much product with less baggage. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but they'll forever check.
maroon barchetta
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Garrelli 5000 said:

I think that this is going to backfire spectacularly for Fender. They'll survive, but they really stepped on on a rake with 1 foot and their own dicks with the other.

They've lost this battle previously in the US and won't win it this time either. What will happen is the other big names are going to start fighting for the little guys that don't move enough product to make a meaningful dent to the big guys on a company per company basis.

Right or wrong, they're going to come out of this looking like Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds. Still gorgeous, still sell product, but people will see if an alternative is available that can move just as much product with less baggage. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but they'll forever check.


I'm scared someone is going to AI that image you described in the first paragraph.
Quincey P. Morris
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AG
I listened to the podcast posted earlier today. At least the part about this and the only point I can see is they're hoping to scare these manufacturers in the US with a demand letter not supported by law. Unless I'm missing something they have no authority at all to tell these companies they can't produce for the US market or demand they destroy stock already sold to vendors in the EU. The idea that a default judgment in a suit in Germany against a company in China because they obviously no showed a hearing would carry any weight in the US is ridiculous. I'd also imagine somebody in the EU is going to challenge this absurdity there.
Cynic
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That's really crappy of Fender.
Garrelli 5000
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AG
It really makes zero sense what math was applied when they considered this something to pursue. The only thing I can think of is that generally speaking, the legal systems across EU are wildly f'd up. See all the arrests for mean tweets.

I really hope some of the domestic big guns go hard and deep on Fender in advertising. Unless this creates a significant windfall for them overseas, this is as close to a Bud Lite moment as you could have in the industry. Different market obviously so not the same impact, but the closest analogy.

Somewhere in heaven Leo can't figure out if he should laugh or cry.

Apologies for the topic derail, i'll get off my made in china soap box.
Hub `93
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I forgot about Shull. He does good work.
Lathspell
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AG
I finally took some time to read through a little about this. It sounds like the group they were suing was because it was more "counterfeiting" vs "S-Type" guitar. I haven't seen a picture of that guitar, so it's hard for me to determine where I personally think it falls.

But this is a EU thing based on a summary judgment because the other side didn't appear in court. The ruling barres Strat and Tele copies to be sold/distributed in the EU. People can get mad all they want about that ruling, but it's Europe. They do a lot of crazy things that I think are wrong, not to say I think this is. It's just silly to get mad about what other countries do... they have different cultures, values, rights, laws, etc. Granted, I'm no attorney, so I don't know how rulings in other countries affect policies in the US.

In the US, there is no ruling on this. If Fender is sending all these cease and desist letters out to American companies doing business in the US, it's something to be litigated in the States, which hasn't happened, yet. Apparently, Fender tried to copyright the designs back in 2009, but the courts ruled these designs have been around for so long and used by so many, without any fight from Fender, that they are essentially in the public domain. This is why it is so important to defend copyrights, no matter the situation. If you don't, you can lose the ability to maintain your copyright.

This looks like a longshot for Fender to be able to force this ruling in the US. The idea of a "Partscaster" is so ingrained in Guitar culture, I don't see how it's enforceable. At the very least, I would be okay with Fender requiring everyone to change the headstock shape. I think it's kind of ****ty to make a T-style or S-style guitar so exactly the same as a Fender Strat/Tele that you even copy the exact headstock shape. Outside of that, I think anyone should be able to make an S-style or T-style guitar, as long as they are in no way correlating it to a real Fender.

Honestly, I've only watch 2 videos about this from guitartubers. The first I heard about it was Tim Pierce's video, and I saw pieces of another. So many of their issues were around concepts like "Fender is being mean" or "my friends are affected". I'm sorry, but that's not an argument I respond to. At the end of the day, we ALL know the Fender Stratocaster and we all know the Fender Telecaster. We literally refer to copies as being copies of those exact guitars. If I put myself in their shoes, I too would be pissy that other builders are copying our designs and competing in the market with our designs.

Anyways... I'm fairly non-committal about any of this. Let's see what happens when it's litigated in the US, which it most assuredly will be. I'm sure we'll see them all band together in a class-action.
dave99ag
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AG
That's a good list, MB!

A few other YouTube channels that I enjoy:
That Pedal Show
No Cover Charge Podcast - Tyler Larson (Music is Win) and Jared James Nichols
Five Watt World - Kenneth Williams
JHS Pedals - Josh might touch on it because he's fairly opinionated.
Ask Zac - Zac might even being a Fender guy.
Chicago Music Exchange
Guthrie Trapp
Carter Vintage Guitars - Good demos of vintage gear (most on Instagram)
Wildwood Guitars - Greg Koch is a wizard on demos, has a good podcast for interviews
Guitar Moves - Some good interviews here and there.
maroon barchetta
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Yeah. I watch some of those you listed. I knew I was leaving some out.

I also watch Chicago Music Exchange because Nathaniel Murphy is such an amazing player.
ravingfans
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AG
maroon barchetta said:

Garrelli 5000 said:

I think that this is going to backfire spectacularly for Fender. They'll survive, but they really stepped on on a rake with 1 foot and their own dicks with the other.

They've lost this battle previously in the US and won't win it this time either. What will happen is the other big names are going to start fighting for the little guys that don't move enough product to make a meaningful dent to the big guys on a company per company basis.

Right or wrong, they're going to come out of this looking like Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds. Still gorgeous, still sell product, but people will see if an alternative is available that can move just as much product with less baggage. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but they'll forever check.


I'm scared someone is going to AI that image you described in the first paragraph.


And get perma-banned--yikes!
Quincey P. Morris
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AG
The headstock is already something they have protected. This thing is all about the body styles. The main issue here to me is they seem to be attempting to strong arm other companies into acting beyond what they'd legally be required to do. I'm sure it will be challenged, it's just nasty corporate nonsense.
maroon barchetta
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This seems fast and surprising.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-defend-s-style-guitars?fbclid=IwY2xjawR7Kd5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA80MDk5NjI2MjMwODU2MDkAAR5xhEohLy428J-XzBTkpgtpnvFX141yxjuOaWYU2kpxjB61dVlVzt38q-ztMQ_aem_bmMNqZRT8GMkPPQY7AlJeA&utm_id=97757_v0_s00_e225_tv2_tp1_a1dennhb6u3i0u
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