Star Wars Rewatch Project: EPISODE VIII - THE LAST JEDI

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TCTTS
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M.C. Swag said:

The screenplay alone was something clearly hacked together by a studio with a dozen writer's giving each scene their own take.

Though you're being overly dramatic, I agree with the heart of what you're saying. That said, the above statement is literally the opposite of what happened. This was Rian Johnson's baby through-and-through, and absolutely feels like something from someone with a singular vision. I didn't particularly care for that vision, but this wasn't some hacked-together-by-committee thing.
M.C. Swag
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TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

The screenplay alone was something clearly hacked together by a studio with a dozen writer's giving each scene their own take.

Though you're being overly dramatic, I agree with the heart of what you're saying. That said, the above statement is literally the opposite of what happened. This was Rian Johnson's baby through-and-through, and absolutely feels like something from someone with a singular vision. I didn't particularly care for that vision, but this wasn't some hacked-together-by-committee thing.
The Canto Bright, free the horses, side quest felt 10000000% like a tacked on sequence. I'm sure publicly everyone is saying Rian wrote every single scene, but I'm not buying it.

Either way, it's a bigger indictment if he actually did.
John Matrix
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In my first viewing of the The Last Jedi about two years ago, I couldn't help and be taken back by a particular scene that, even in the internet warfare that has ensued over this film, has been largely forgotten. In this scene, Rey, having risked life and limb to get Luke Skywalker his light saber and get him to join the resistance, finally hands it to him, only for Luke to throw it away nonchalantly. I couldn't help thinking while watching this scene that I hated it. This is Luke's lightsaber! Not only was it the mcguffin for The Force Awakens, but it was a symbol of his growth as a hero in the perhaps the greatest pop-series the world has ever known. And he threw it away! I hated it at the time, and I even hated it more after watching it again in theaters. However, after this re-watch, I noticed an important detail with this scene that is metaphorical for the entire experience of this difficult, challenging, and heavily flawed filmLuke doesn't completely throw it in the sea. He could have thrown it away, forever erasing his identity as a Jedi, but he doesn't. The history and legend of Luke Skywalker, and by proxy Star Wars itself, may change, some of it may be discarded, but, unlike what Kylo Ren says later in the film, it is not Rian Johnson's intent in this film to "erase the past." Far from it. He wants to challenge and enhance what came before. Is he entirely successful in this? Not at all. The Last Jedi is heavily flawed in many ways, but when it works, it REALLY works. Like Empire Strikes Back level of working. But because this film is so imperfect and so challenging, it was destined to be controversial in the black/white moral aesthetic of the online culture war. Say what you want to about this film, it's not easy to characterize, and it takes a couple of viewings to really get a feel for it. Our twitter and Instagram-fueled society is not conducive to this kind of thing. I think we're going to look at The Last Jedi as, at least, the most interesting and daring Star Wars film ever made, even with its imperfections.

The Good:

Luke Skywalker's arc in this film is one of the best things Disney has done with the franchise. There, I said it. If Rian Johnson's goal was to shake-up Star Wars, this is the way to do it. The easy thing would have been to just re-create Luke as another Obi-Wan, molding Rey about the importance of the force/Jedi/etc. Johnson doesn't do that. One of the things I love about Star Wars is that although it takes place in a galaxy far far away, it involves real human emotions and conditions that speak to us all. Having Luke Skywalker be unchanged on Ob-Wan like would not have aligned with that. As you get older, you do get more cynical and burned out. His change here is startling, brutal, but totally backed by the plot and Star Wars history. The Jedi are failures in Star Wars. That's been a joke and meme for years, and Johnson just verbalized and dramatized it in the film. When he fails with Ben, it just confirms all his fear about Jedithat they are out of touch, myopic, and kind of stupid. Instead of ignoring that, Luke and by proxy Johnson confront that idea and propose a new one: can the Jedi change? Can they embrace the dark side a little? What does a Jedi look like in this new area of ironically resurgent fascism? In a way, almost accidentally, Johnson confronts what were all thinking about our own country. What does America look like in the new century? What ideals/morals do we keep? Which ones do we lose? Do we EVEN want to lose any? It's difficult, painful stuff, and its reflected in Luke here. It's brilliant interconnection between theme, character, and context.

The climax of this film perfectly reflects this theme of failure of change and is one of the best endings to Star Wars ever. Luke's walk out to Kylo is the ultimate reflection of this theme of failurea man literally walking into the bright light of that failure, and confronting it. Initially, I hated the fact that Luke was basically turned into "Matrix Luke" and is just a projection. Now, I see that it reflects his change backhe has fully embraced again the Jedi ideal of defense and not attack here. Plus, it further inspires a spark that could help rejuvenate the rebellion by fulling embracing the legend that he struggled with so much. It's just brilliant stuff.

Kylo Ren and Rey, and the complicated nature of their relationship, also is done well here. Instead of the straight adversarial nature that was probably initially intended, Johnson creates an almost toxic/faux-romantic relationship between the two that really could go interesting places. Rey's realization that Ren could be a victim is, while not entirely original, an interesting way to go in the black/white characterization of Star Wars.

All in all, the Kylo-Luke-Rey trifecta really saves this film from being an absolute **** show. Kylo in particular here is still struggling, just like Luke with his own identity. Should he be Vader 2, or his own man? Once again, the school-shooter as Vader role here gets more interesting.

The Bad:

As brilliant as Johnson's handling of Luke and Kylo is, Rey herself really does get almost shorted here. Finding out she is a nobody is brilliant, (I really hope Abrams doesn't reverse it), but her character just gets stronger? There's really not an arc here other than being a vehicle for more force action with Kylo. Her love/hate relationship with Kylo has interesting potential here, but Johnson really doesn't do much with it.

Poe Dameron's arc here is interesting, but just as clumsily handled as Rey's. Having him be an arrogant, reckless guy that causes as much harm as he does good is an interesting place to go, but Holdo being such a nothing character really hurts it. Holdo, herself, really should have just been Leia here. I tend to think this was just a choice that Johnson made because perhaps he didn't quite trust Carrie Fisher to pull off the acting required. While the lightspeed collision mentioned here is awesome, it really is done under stupid circumstances.

The Ugly

As great as Johnson was at handling the Luke/Rey/Kylo trifecta, he equally screws up anything dealing with the resistance's slow crawl of an escape scene. Everything about this section makes no logical sense. Holdo's big plan is to leave on the transport ships? And that is going to fool the Frist Order, how? She keeps everyone in the dark regarding this brilliant plan, for what reason? This section of the story is really what keeps this film from being an undisputed classic. It's prequel-level bad level of world building and plotting. It's legitimately perplexing how Johnson can handle anything with Luke so well and totally miss the boat on everything else.

Canto Bright was somehow worse than the last time I saw it. I get it's importance in the film,( to expand the role of big business in the war), but seeing it again made me think of George Lucas' aimless forays into CGI just for the hell of it in the prequels. In the end, I feel that Johnson really didn't have a lot for Finn and Rose to do here and just used them as background.

Ultimately, The Last Jedi is a film that is frustratingly close to greatness, and I think its this Jeckyl and Hyde nature that has ultimately doomed it forever be controversial. If it was straight terrible as some claim, we could just dismiss it like we do Attack of the Clones, The Phantom Menace, the holiday special, etc. However, the fact that it gets so much right and is borderline brilliant in many cases almost works against it. I'll be honest though, this re watch almost moved it into almost classic status despite its weaknesses. I can't help but relate to Luke in this, which is surprising considering he's a space wizard that has miraculous powers. I may not have the force at my fingertips, but I damn well know what failure is and how it can make you cynical. But that's the brilliance of Star Wars when it's workingan amazing knack for making the fantastic possible on a basic human level. The Last Jedi is an imperfect film for an imperfect time, and I can't help but love it for that.

Final Rankings:
1.The Empire Strikes Back
2.Star Wars
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Rogue One
5. The Last Jedi
6. The Force Awakens
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones




TCTTS
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M.C. Swag said:

TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

The screenplay alone was something clearly hacked together by a studio with a dozen writer's giving each scene their own take.

Though you're being overly dramatic, I agree with the heart of what you're saying. That said, the above statement is literally the opposite of what happened. This was Rian Johnson's baby through-and-through, and absolutely feels like something from someone with a singular vision. I didn't particularly care for that vision, but this wasn't some hacked-together-by-committee thing.
The Canto Bright, free the horses, side quest felt 10000000% like a tacked on sequence. I'm sure publicly everyone is saying Rian wrote every single scene, but I'm not buying it.

Either way, it's a bigger indictment if he actually did.

Thematically, Canto Bright fits PERFECTLY with the rest of the movie's "woke" themes. It feels 100% Rian in that sense. The only thing about it that gives me pause is the plot device of not being able to land the master code breaker they were after only to find another master code breaker in their jail cell. Like him or not, Johnson is a super smart dude and that contrivance felt WAY beneath him. Still, I have no doubt that Canto Bright was his idea and his alone.
TCTTS
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GREAT post. I agree wholeheartedly with nearly every point you make.
fig96
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Ok, sooo...

The Good

- The opening bombing sequence, Poe's recklessness aside, sets a great tone and feels very Star Wars.

- Luke's overall arc. I know some didn't like it, but to me it felt true to what someone in position might be going through (walking away from your belief system, etc.).

- The idea of Canto Blight. Execution issues aside for the moment, the idea of introducing shades of gray into a universe that's always felt very black and white was a really great shift. And all those weapons do have to come from somewhere.

- The development of the Rey/Luke relationship and her training sequences.

- The Kylo/Rey duel and Snoke's death. Really well choreographed and I love the momentary questions in everyone's mind after Kylo turns.

- The porgs and Chewie were pretty hilarious.

- The Rebel ship ripping through the Destroyer at light speed sans audio...what a seriously stunning sequence of shots.

- The Finn/Phasma standoff (though she was kind of a wasted character).

- The visuals of the Crait battle, absolutely beautiful.

- The Kylo/Luke showdown. Just brilliant in every way, and I thought a fitting way for Luke to go out.

- The closing shot with the child slave outside the stables at Canto Blight was a nice note to go out on.


The Bad

- The clunkiness of Canto Blight and Finn/Rose's side plot. As mentioned I really love what Canto Blight introduces conceptually, but the writing all through there just seemed a bit awkward and the Master Spy felt rather contrived, along with Benecio Del Toro backup plan.

- The dynamics of the Poe/Holdo relationship. Him disagreeing would've been fine and there was an interesting sub-plot to pursue there, but he was just too insubordinate and childish. He's a career military guy, even if he thinks he knows better he'd show more respect there.

- The rebels being pursued then evacuated across the galaxy before Holdo's checkmate. Again, felt just kind of forced and awkward. There's some great ideas in there, especially them being tracked through hyperspace, but it never quite worked all together and just seemed sort of silly that she'd keep the plan all to herself.


The indifferent

- Kylo and Rey's relationship works so well at times then feels forced at others, and it was like he didn't quite know where to take them. Their force conversations were super interesting but seemed like a bit of an easy out to solve that problem.

- Carrie Fisher is so good as Leia, then Force flying Leia just felt like another easy out. I get that we were showing she had this ingrained Force ability, but it again didn't quite work.

- Phasma...what purpose does she really serve? They got a great actress, built up the character, then just didn't do much with her.


So overall, most of my issues with the film are really execution related. Conceptually it all works pretty well IMO, but there's sections that feel just heavy handed, not well written, or poorly thought out and they take away from what could've been a really good film.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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I remember an early rumor about Leia was that she sees the impact coming and basically just holds everything in place (the glass, the metal, etc.) long enough for people to get inside and rescue everyone. Once she sense the rest of the bridge staff is OK, she lets go and collapses and they get her out - easily setting up her being in the coma for a while, recovering from such a huge taxing of her Force abilities.
PDWT_12
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Forgot to mention another thing I liked about TLJ... return of Hillbilly Florida Yoda. Just lighting **** on fire, professing distaste for literature, and teaching acceptance of failure. God bless him.
TCTTS
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This post made me very happy.
TCTTS
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All very well said and in 100% agreement.
Quad Dog
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Also Frank Oz operating a Yoda puppet again was cool.
YouBet
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PDWT_12 said:

Forgot to mention another thing I liked about TLJ... return of Hillbilly Florida Yoda. Just lighting **** on fire, professing distaste for literature, and teaching acceptance of failure. God bless him.
Genius.

LeonardSkinner
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PDWT_12 said:

Forgot to mention another thing I liked about TLJ... return of Hillbilly Florida Yoda. Just lighting **** on fire, professing distaste for literature, and teaching acceptance of failure. God bless him.


"My beer. Hold it, you will."
BoydCrowder13
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I really do HATE this movie.

This movie honestly killed Star Wars for me. I am no more excited for Star Wars 9 than I am for Jumanji 3. That is what Last Jedi did to me.

I rewatch some of it on Netflix from time to time to get a laugh.

Thoughts:
-Hux is a terrible character. Not intimidating in any way. A total joke. Waste of Domhnall Gleason.
-Kylo isn't much better. This is the last (that we know of) Skywalker. The focal point of 9 movies. And he is a spoiled kid that turned to the dark side for "reasons". Certainly no Vader or Palpatine.
-Rose is quite possibly my least favorite character ever. Including Jar Jar. That kiss and resulting line was the new "I hate sand" speech.
-Rey learned next to nothing about herself in this movie. She just did things. I didn't understand her dark side visions at all. She has never once struck me as having any dark side temptations. They will probably poorly attempt to explain in 9.
-Mary Poppins moment. Breathing in space.
-The whole movie is one long slow car chase.
-Finn and Rose's mission was so stupid I don't even want to discuss. I truly believe the only reason it was in the movie was for Disney to inject some SJW crap.
-The cheese is turned up to 10 during most of the movie. Not fun Obi Wan prequel cheese. Lines like "Godspeed....rebels" and "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down".
-I didn't mind Luke's hermit life. The blue milk was gross. They sent him out like a punk.
-Snoke was ultimately meaningless. There is no real bad guy in these movies.
-The movie ends with 10 rebels left. IN THE GALAXY. It doesn't even make sense. At the end of Empire, the Rebel fleet was still intact. Now it is just over. It would take YEARS if not decades to create a new functional resistance.

Many more thoughts but I'll stop there for now. This movie gets me heated. Episode 9 literally is starting from scratch. There aren't really even any hanging plot lines. It is like the first 2 movies didn't matter at all.
The Collective
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Watching right now. Damn it, liking it. Guess I just love Star Wars.
Brandamne
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That movie was such a wasted opportunity! Save us J.J!!!
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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I rewatched TLJ last night. First time I've watched it in more than a year.

The opening act was really good with Poe taking out the dreadnought's surface cannons, allowing for the bombing run. As I said earlier in the thread, I really connect with all the WWII-like "aerial" action in these movies, so that bombing run was truly a good sequence for me.

The Force-enacted interactions between Rey and Kylo were great. But that actually leads me to a complaint about this movie, and even the series overall. Eventually Rey heads to the First Order ship to find Kylo with the intent of turning him, but instead finds herself brought before Snoke. Come on, give us something new. It's not like Luke did not once turn himself in to Vader in the hope of turning him only to find himself brought before Emperor Palpatine. I had the same thought with Revenge of the Sith when Anakin and Obi-Wan went into the control tower of the ship that Dooku held Palpatine captive; too many shades of the throne room duel in Jedi. Same thing with the otherwise fantastic fight between Rey/Kylo and the red guards after Kylo kills Snoke.

I liked the action on the salt planet even though it felt a bit too close to Hoth for a bit. Then Luke's appearance via the Force to say his good-byes to Leia (nice moment) and then to draw out Kylo and give the Resistance time to flee, all of that was great.

The hyperspace maneuver through the dreadnought was awesome.

Others have said there was a basis of a really good Star Wars movie here, and I agree. The action and story telling was different enough from all previous movies in this series. It picked up right after TFA ended, a first in this series. And it did not find itself sprawling across the galaxy in multiple locations (for the most part); its story took place all within the same area with the Resistance fleet fleeing the First Order, finally ending with the battle on the salt planet.

But ... this movie ultimately fails due to some really crappy sequences and quite unnecessary SJW garbage. As much as most on this board seem to hate Jar Jar Binks, I have the same loathing hatred for Rose. She is a completely worthless character who delivered the worst line in all of these movies - "we will beat them with love" or some drivel like that. The Las Vegas planet gets a lot of hate, deservedly so, but the one good thing that came out of that entire sequence was the idea that military contractors are the big winners in this galactic war. That was not enough to save that Canto Bight sequence, though; the horse-things ... good Lord, that sucked.

I cannot see any way that a group of military folks being told a new admiral will assume command of the fleet, and out steps purple haired dinosaur lady wearing a freaking cocktail dress, that such a person would command anything but contempt. She also seems to be a condescending b***ch. No offense to Laura Dern, but her character should never have been written into this movie. She gets to perform the hyperspace maneuver? That's hogwash! That honor should have belonged to Admiral Ackbar, but they gave him an unceremonious send-off to the depths of space in the same sequence that sucked Leia into the vacuum.

Speaking of Leia ... really, Mary Poppins Leia? We all know she is a Skywalker, and therefore Force-sensitive, but the ability to survive in the vaccum of space, and to float her way back to the blown-out bridge of her command ship, are way too big an accomplishment to suddenly drop on audiences who have never so much as seen her move a rock. But I guess that kinda goes with this sequel trilogy, as Rey doesn't even know who she is, yet she is able to duel and defeat a trained Dark-Side Jedi (he's not Sith, though, is he supposed to be a Knight of Ren, whatever that is?)

General Hux. Come on, how does an imbecile like that advance past the rank of private? If they had put the guy who was in command of the dreadnought at the film's beginning as the overall military leader of the First Order, that would have been more believable than this goober Hux. I didn't think much of Hux in TFA, but TLJ went out of their way to portray the guy in the absolute worst possible way.

Finn. He had the makings of a truly good character in TFA, but here, he is wasted. He contributes nothing to the story - although he was attempting to be of some value by sacrificing himself against the big gun on the salt planet until that idiot Rose stopped him and uttered her "beat them with love" line.

Poe. I liked him in TFA, and I liked him in TLJ. He's a hot-shot fighter jockey, and with my fascination of WWII aviation, it figures I'd like his character.

Rey. No real growth here, and my biggest complaint with her character remains - who is she and where did she get the ability to defeat a trained Jedi? I'm not buying Kylo's statement that she is the daughter of nobodies and therefore a nobody herself.

The score was typical of John Williams, an immenently re-listenable work that added some new themes to his already impressive library.

Then there is how this movie fits into the sequel trilogy. With many of the events that unfolded in TFA seemingly resolved in this second movie, where exactly do they go with TROS? I'm not interested in spoilers, so I'll have to wait until 20-December to find out. Perhaps we'll find out there was some brilliance on the part of Johnson in the way he crafted The Last Jedi; perhaps he went against expectation (of, say, the Kylo-Rey-Snoke battle being resolved here rather than punting that to TROS).

My Star Wars rankings:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Rogue One
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Return of the Jedi
6. The Force Awakens
7. The Phantom Menace
8. Solo
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Last Jedi
vwbug
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TLJ should have been told along a Godfather 2 type story line:

1/3 PRESENT DAY:
  • Open up with Han Solo funeral or some sort of mourning since the two movies have no time jump
  • Luke training Rey
  • Kylo tracking them down on Ach-To with Knights of Ren
  • Luke shows off his skills 30-years in the making, Kylo wets his pants and heads back to Gold Robe
  • Poe and Finn battling Captain Phasma, Leia using the force in a serious matter
  • Captain Phasma isn't wasted for a second straight movie.
  • Snoke captures Leia with help of Hux, Phasma, and Holdo (who ends up being a first order mole)

1/3 FLASHBACK:
  • Leia pregnant with Ben, forced to take maternity leave from jedi training with twin brother
  • Ben showing early signs of being a 5-Star jedi recruit
  • Ben and Uncle clash
  • Rey's childhood is teased, but only slightly.
  • Han says peace out
  • Ben goes dark side, Camp Jedi is blown up, Luke goes to Skellig.

1/3 TIED TOGETHER PRESENT DAY:
  • Rey and Luke join Poe and Finn to find Leia after whipping Kylo on AchTo
  • C3PO gets a red head to sell more merchandise
  • Snoke kills Leia
  • Luke goes next level force on Snoke and ends Snoke's life
  • Cliffhanger ending: Rey remembers her parents sparked by something Snoke said in the third act battle: why they left and how she is connected to Ben/Luke, tying together the "tease" during the earlier flashback

P.S. And since it's the second of a three part series - someone has to be frozen in carbonite, Chewie's turn?

That would have been better than mom jokes, fuel issues, Lightsaber toss contest, Mary Poppins contest, and milking aliens.

TCTTS
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Love it, although Kylo would need more of an arc, similar to the version we got ("Let the past die" - which would tie in nicely with actually showing the past in the manner you lay out), as would Rey. That said, I actually think two or three of these points are being addressed in TROS.
vwbug
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They could have intertwined the present day/flash back stuff throughout the movie - would have been different and really neat way to explain characters.

They chose unwisely.
easttexasaggie04
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What happens if Poe doesn't destroy the dreadnaught and have all the bombers and many fighters destroyed?
The Collective
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easttexasaggie04 said:

What happens if Poe doesn't destroy the dreadnaught and have all the bombers and many fighters destroyed?


I assumed the alternative was no attack, and they jump to lightspeed & get out of there. Of course, Leia doesn't know they will be tracked at that point.
vwbug
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CJS4715 said:

easttexasaggie04 said:

What happens if Poe doesn't destroy the dreadnaught and have all the bombers and many fighters destroyed?


I assumed the alternative was no attack, and they jump to lightspeed & get out of there. Of course, Leia doesn't know they will be tracked at that point.
Good guys get out of there, but we are then introduced to Holdo.... Holdo secretly leads them into an ambush with the good guys being captured by Hux/Phasma/Holdo.... on the Las Vegas planet.

Third Act begins....
vwbug
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The rey flashback from TFA had no advancement or explanation in TLJ other than the terribly done Luke trying to kill his nephew (thought that entire idea was really dumb) and burning the village down - but how was that in Rey's flashback?

The flashback from TFA could have setup so much of the back story on both Rey and Kylo being explained in TLJ:
  • Maybe then knew each other in the academy
  • Maybe they were childhood buds, loved each other from an early age even??
  • Rey's impressive lineage or the fact she had no lineage but was off the charts on midichlorians

All reasons why I think the Godfather II type storytelling would have worked great in TLJ and would have given both Rey and Kylo many more layers to their character.
Atreides Ornithopter
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This movie shows why women are better than men.

Finn is a coward and is fixed by Rose
Poe is a hothead and is fixed by purple admiral
Luke doesnt care anymore and is fixed Rey.
Kylo is Kylo and will eventually be fixed by Rey in IX
 
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