cbr said:
I've posted several times over the years. Steve willis was a very good friend of mine. Racing buddy. He had a really cool, honorable career. He was a dod agent investigating defense contractor fraud.
Well, guess what. The Feds didn't want that. They didn't think it was a cool, honorable career. They thought he was a snitch. So one day he tells me he's moving to the ATF. I said 'Steve, wtf? The Feds have no business regulating alcohol, tobacco, or firearms! It's a bull**** deal. You'll be the bad guy! Don't do it.
Steve said, I have less than no future with dod. Gotta go where the funds and action are. I have all this cool assault gear.
That was the last conversation I ever had with steve.
He died in the raid. My friend was a clear cut, no grey area bad guy. No different than a nkvd or gestapo agent. They had no business whatsoever going on that raid. 100% government evil.
My girlfriend ran track for Baylor. She ran right by that compound every day. She saw and interacted those people. They were fine. Good neighbors.
The davidians were not mainstream. So what.
The whole point of this country is to have freedom to be different.
The funeral was huge. 2nd baptist in houston.
One of those atf agents was showing off koresh's car. They stole it during the standoff.
None of the ****ing Commie sicko criminals that got steve and all those innocent people killed paid for it. None were even severely punished.
It was absolute travesty. Steve died for less than nothing, and his ATF folks murdered over 80 innocent American men women and children for nothing.
tylercsbn9 said:
Man Kitsch is just killing it in this role...he has really elevated himself with this show.
Cstrickland05 said:cbr said:
I've posted several times over the years. Steve willis was a very good friend of mine. Racing buddy. He had a really cool, honorable career. He was a dod agent investigating defense contractor fraud.
Well, guess what. The Feds didn't want that. They didn't think it was a cool, honorable career. They thought he was a snitch. So one day he tells me he's moving to the ATF. I said 'Steve, wtf? The Feds have no business regulating alcohol, tobacco, or firearms! It's a bull**** deal. You'll be the bad guy! Don't do it.
Steve said, I have less than no future with dod. Gotta go where the funds and action are. I have all this cool assault gear.
That was the last conversation I ever had with steve.
He died in the raid. My friend was a clear cut, no grey area bad guy. No different than a nkvd or gestapo agent. They had no business whatsoever going on that raid. 100% government evil.
My girlfriend ran track for Baylor. She ran right by that compound every day. She saw and interacted those people. They were fine. Good neighbors.
The davidians were not mainstream. So what.
The whole point of this country is to have freedom to be different.
The funeral was huge. 2nd baptist in houston.
One of those atf agents was showing off koresh's car. They stole it during the standoff.
None of the ****ing Commie sicko criminals that got steve and all those innocent people killed paid for it. None were even severely punished.
It was absolute travesty. Steve died for less than nothing, and his ATF folks murdered over 80 innocent American men women and children for nothing.
Thank you for sharing and you obviously have a different perspective on the event than most people. I agree that the government completely screwed up, and should have just grabbed Koresh when he was in town, but let's not act like the Davidians were 100% innocent just because they waved and smiled at your girlfriend when she ran by.
It should not have been executed at all. That's the point. Koresh should have been arrested outside the compound for suspicion of statutory rape, child endangerment, etc. Or, a search warrant should have been carried out by the Sheriff's dept. Or any other myriad of actions taken either by the state of Texas or the county.jw.scott said:
It seems like the execution was wrong, but Koresh deserved to be in custody.
LHIOB said:
He doesnt get a lot of attention but John Leguizamo is pretty great in everything he does. Big fan.
jw.scott said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but statutory rape was still a crime back then. So saying that these were "fine, good neighbors" doesn't really hold water. The adults in the compound were active participants.
But I'm enjoying the show so far.
Right but he also took a wife who was 11 and another who was 10.The Debt said:jw.scott said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but statutory rape was still a crime back then. So saying that these were "fine, good neighbors" doesn't really hold water. The adults in the compound were active participants.
But I'm enjoying the show so far.
They went over the parental permission aspect of it.
So here's the question, if Amish folk marry 14yo girl to a 19yo boy, is it statutory? Or does one just write that off as an "alternative lifestyle"?
Biologically there isn't reason why they shouldn't. In fact this country was founded by men who married teenage brides while in their 30s. Mankind still typically follows this model today, the West excluded.
One could claim Koresh is following a biological imperative, whether consciously or not.
Thats were it gets bad.Quote:
Right but he also took a wife who was 11 and another who was 10.
That might be your opinion, but they didn't "board up and stop" the church. It's actually still going today.jw.scott said:
I one hundred percent agree that the mission by the ATF should've never taken place. But that church 100% deserve to be boarded up and stopped. It was not some innocent religious organization, it was a cult who's leader used his position to rape children. There was no suspicion of rape. He had offspring with children. This in no way was an organization that needed to be left alone.
Urban Ag said:
I don't have any interest in debating what the age of consent should be, legally, culturally, or morally. At least not on the entertainment board. The point remains, he was sleeping with underage girls. He should have been arrested for that by local or state authorities, not a federally sanctioned military operation.
aggiespartan said:That might be your opinion, but they didn't "board up and stop" the church. It's actually still going today.jw.scott said:
I one hundred percent agree that the mission by the ATF should've never taken place. But that church 100% deserve to be boarded up and stopped. It was not some innocent religious organization, it was a cult who's leader used his position to rape children. There was no suspicion of rape. He had offspring with children. This in no way was an organization that needed to be left alone.
Ag_07 said:
Comparing Koresh and the BDs to the founding fathers is a bit out there for me.
jw.scott said:
I one hundred percent agree that the mission by the ATF should've never taken place. But that church 100% deserve to be boarded up and stopped. It was not some innocent religious organization, it was a cult who's leader used his position to rape children. There was no suspicion of rape. He had offspring with children. This in no way was an organization that needed to be left alone.
jw.scott said:
I'm not sure how to respond to that. Are you telling me that you condone David Koresh's actions? Or that he wasn't breaking any laws due to the fact that it was his/their religious beliefs? That the "American thing" to do would be to leave them alone and allow him to take as many preteen wives as his heart desired?
M.C. - shows good. So we've got that going for us, which is nice.
Sleeping with girls barely into puberty isn't a crime worthy of surveillance?cbr said:jw.scott said:
I'm not sure how to respond to that. Are you telling me that you condone David Koresh's actions? Or that he wasn't breaking any laws due to the fact that it was his/their religious beliefs? That the "American thing" to do would be to leave them alone and allow him to take as many preteen wives as his heart desired?
M.C. - shows good. So we've got that going for us, which is nice.
I think koresh was not my type of guy.
But he was the type of guy that whole families chose of their own free will to live and worship with under his teachings and that is their absolute right. That is pretty much the whole point of this country.
There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that he or they did, or could have done, that was as much of a crime as the decision to conduct surveillance in them, much less the decision to raid them, and that would be true even if they hadn't murdered them and lied about it.
maca1028 said:
I agree that there was no reason for things to go down the way they went down but Koresh absolutely belonged behind bars.
It's a series that details incredibly politically charged events that has had long lasting ripples on national politics and American culture. That said, it's a pretty difficult topic to discuss without getting in to the politics.LHIOB said:
Can we keep this to discussion about the show? Maybe start another thread for a discussion about the siege and the governments involvement in everything...
I totally get it and I want to read about it...after the show has completed. I don't want to have someone else opinions of what happened/what should have happened change how I view the show. Didnt mean to stop the conversation...Urban Ag said:It's a series that details incredibly politically charged events that has had long lasting ripples on national politics and American culture. That said, it's a pretty difficult topic to discuss without getting in to the politics.LHIOB said:
Can we keep this to discussion about the show? Maybe start another thread for a discussion about the siege and the governments involvement in everything...
But you're right. That should be kept on another forum. Did not mean to clutter this thread up. It really is a very well made series.
