Outstanding so far... I did find it a little offputting in episode 4 when talking about Reserve/guard members being privileged and typically wealthy... all while focusing on a picture of Dubya in his ANG uniform.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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Oahu_Gigem said:

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My favorite Vietnam book is "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts" by David Hackworth.

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while I would never recommend someone NOT read Hackworth, that's more of a leadership book.


anyone interested in reading the history of the Vietnam war should go with:

Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall - the history of the French in Vietnam. read this with the mindset that Americans had access to this book BEFORE THE WAR. it will make you angry.

Embers of War by Frederik Logevall - basically the story of the French in Vietnam and the transition to the Americans

Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow - good overall picture of post WWII Vietnam through the fall of Saigon. Emphasis on America's involvement.

The Best and Brightest by David Halberstam- who all the main players were, what they did, and how they all each contributed to getting us into the mess

A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan - very thorough story of early American involvement through the early seventies. Shows an interesting transition in the main character (John Paul Vann) from skeptic to true believer. a personal favorite.

In Retrospect by Robert McNamara - McNamara's ass-covering memoir that sort of takes some blame, while excuse making

Dereliction of Duty by H.R. McMaster - pretty much a response to In Retrospect, putting the blame back on the LBJ White House and staff


I wrote those in no particular order, but they're actually in a pretty decent order that you COULD read them. maybe start with Karnow.

other interesting Vietnam books:

Hell in a Very Small Place by Bernard Fall - the story of Dien Bien Phu.

The Last Valley by Martin Windrow - the book's focus is on Dien Bien Phu, but it's a very thorough explanation of the beginnings of the Viet Minh and the French in Vietnam

Four Hours in My Lai by Michael Bilton - the story of one of America's darkest days in the war. not for the faint of heart. brutal book.


I'm also in the process of reading through the Lyndon Johnson series by Robert Caro, because all the rest of my reading has lead me to it with the opinion that this flawed president is about 95% to blame for things getting as bad as they did.

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Damn. I have only read one of these (Hell in a small place) and only heard of three others. And I always considered myself fairly well read.

Need to put some work in! Thanks for the recs.

ETA: Now have Fields of Fire and Four Hours in My Lai on the way.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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maverick2076 said:

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I'd add "We Were Soldiers, Once...and Young" to your reading list.

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decent enough book, but you wont get much education about the Vietnam War from these types of tactical level stories. just my opinion.

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No, it's definitely not a strategic view of the war. But it is still a great read.

maverick2076 said:

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I'd add "We Were Soldiers, Once...and Young" to your reading list.

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I recommend this one to people to make sure the rest of the battle is not forgotten. (along with the fact it is a damn good book in itself) Most people associate it with the movie, which was excellent, but only told half the story. (If that). Movie does not go into the other battalions that went in on foot to try to relieve LZ X-ray and were absolutely butchered. Most people don't know that more troops were lost trying to save Moore and his unit than Moore suffered himself.

Guess it is hard to spin out an uplifting story of American units being overran and wounded/prisoners being executed on the field of battle...

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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Oahu_Gigem said:

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My favorite Vietnam book is "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts" by David Hackworth.

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while I would never recommend someone NOT read Hackworth, that's more of a leadership book.


anyone interested in reading the history of the Vietnam war should go with:

Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall - the history of the French in Vietnam. read this with the mindset that Americans had access to this book BEFORE THE WAR. it will make you angry.

Embers of War by Frederik Logevall - basically the story of the French in Vietnam and the transition to the Americans

Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow - good overall picture of post WWII Vietnam through the fall of Saigon. Emphasis on America's involvement.

The Best and Brightest by David Halberstam- who all the main players were, what they did, and how they all each contributed to getting us into the mess

A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan - very thorough story of early American involvement through the early seventies. Shows an interesting transition in the main character (John Paul Vann) from skeptic to true believer. a personal favorite.

In Retrospect by Robert McNamara - McNamara's ass-covering memoir that sort of takes some blame, while excuse making

Dereliction of Duty by H.R. McMaster - pretty much a response to In Retrospect, putting the blame back on the LBJ White House and staff


I wrote those in no particular order, but they're actually in a pretty decent order that you COULD read them. maybe start with Karnow.

other interesting Vietnam books:

Hell in a Very Small Place by Bernard Fall - the story of Dien Bien Phu.

The Last Valley by Martin Windrow - the book's focus is on Dien Bien Phu, but it's a very thorough explanation of the beginnings of the Viet Minh and the French in Vietnam

Four Hours in My Lai by Michael Bilton - the story of one of America's darkest days in the war. not for the faint of heart. brutal book.


I'm also in the process of reading through the Lyndon Johnson series by Robert Caro, because all the rest of my reading has lead me to it with the opinion that this flawed president is about 95% to blame for things getting as bad as they did.

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This is an excellent list. I would also add:
Where The Domino Fell by Dr. James S. Olson, former chair of the history department at SHSU (I'm not sure if he is still in that position). It details a lot of the political aspects that happened before and during the war.
I would also add:
We Were Soldiers Once, and Young by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway. This is an excellent first hand account of the battle of the Ia Drang in 1965. The Mel Gibson movie was a pretty good adaptation of the book IMO.

happy reading, devil

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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happy reading, devil

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Just started "The Best and the Brightest" on Audible. Thanks for the rec.

DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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happy reading, devil

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Just started "The Best and the Brightest" on Audible. Thanks for the rec.

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glad to do it. anytime someone gets interested in something that I know a fair amount about, I love showing off! haha

and that's a good one to start with, because whatever you go to next, you'll be familiar with the players.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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happy reading, devil

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Just started "The Best and the Brightest" on Audible. Thanks for the rec.

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glad to do it. anytime someone gets interested in something that I know a fair amount about, I love showing off! haha

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Have you read "The Pentagon Papers?"

Is the Neil Sheehan version simply his NYT account put in book form?

DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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happy reading, devil

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Just started "The Best and the Brightest" on Audible. Thanks for the rec.

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glad to do it. anytime someone gets interested in something that I know a fair amount about, I love showing off! haha

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Have you read "The Pentagon Papers?"

Is the Neil Sheehan version simply his NYT account put in book form?

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I have not read the pentagon papers, but it's on my amazon list. i'll get to it eventually.

I haven't read Sheehan's NYT account either, so I cant speak to that, but it's a pretty thorough and heavily researched book, so I cant imagine it's just a long version of a newspaper article or series of articles.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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DG-Ag said:

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Presley OBannons Sword said:

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happy reading, devil

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Just started "The Best and the Brightest" on Audible. Thanks for the rec.

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glad to do it. anytime someone gets interested in something that I know a fair amount about, I love showing off! haha

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Have you read "The Pentagon Papers?"

Is the Neil Sheehan version simply his NYT account put in book form?

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I have not read the pentagon papers, but it's on my amazon list. i'll get to it eventually.

I haven't read Sheehan's NYT account either, so I cant speak to that, but it's a pretty thorough and heavily researched book, so I cant imagine it's just a long version of a newspaper article or series of articles.

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Thanks. I may go to Barnes & Noble and flip through it before I use an audible credit on it.

New book from Blackhawk Down author Mark Bowden "Hue 1968" is riveting. Recommended by two friends, former Marine officers who are VN veterans as am I except was USAF.

Just finished. Last episode is one of the best things and toughest things I've ever watched. The part about the wall had me close to tears. And when the female anti-war activist apologized in tears for the awful things she and others like her said...powerful stuff. And those brave men holding back tears. Incredible film making.

Even if you don't want to invest time to watch entire series you must watch the final episode.

It's been nothing short of incredible.

I knew the watershed moments and the overarching themes and results. But I ever knew the details certainly and this showed that and put it all in context in an incredible way. Plus the personal interest stories were amazing. And the way the same people shown earlier came back into the story later at home or in the wrap up was incredibly effective.

I feel like I really understand it now as tragic as it all was.

This is better to me than any of the Ken Burns efforts before. Very fully and accurately and thoroughly depicted. A very honest portrayal of a tragedy of epic proportions.

Emmy. Give it to him.

DG-Ag said:

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It has also reinvigorated my hatered and disgust for Jane Fonda. What a miserable American and human being she is.

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Jane Fonda = scum POS

matureag said:

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New book from Blackhawk Down author Mark Bowden "Hue 1968" is riveting. Recommended by two friends, former Marine officers who are VN veterans as am I except was USAF.

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I've got this one sitting on my bookshelf waiting on me

just started Hue 1968 and so far so good.

how is everyone's Vietnam reading going?

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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just started Hue 1968 and so far so good.

how is everyone's Vietnam reading going?

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About a quarter of the way through "Best and Brightest."

Started watching "Full Metal Jacket" the other night. Interesting re-watching these movies and understanding better what the hell they're talking about.

Pretty Interesting story on the picture that captured the Marine in the Tank in Hue 1968.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/05/the-true-story-of-the-marine-on-the-tank-vietnam-war/amp

Mark Bowden's new book on Hue has a good description of that scene too. Very good book btw...

ja86 said:

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Mark Bowden's new book on Hue has a good description of that scene too. Very good book btw...

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I'm almost 400 pages in, and I quit. This book is awful. Surprised you liked it.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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ja86 said:

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Mark Bowden's new book on Hue has a good description of that scene too. Very good book btw...

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I'm almost 400 pages in, and I quit. This book is awful. Surprised you liked it.

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Is it his formula? Most of his books seem to follow the same style. If it is content, I'm looking to expand into more into this subject.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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ja86 said:

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Mark Bowden's new book on Hue has a good description of that scene too. Very good book btw...

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I'm almost 400 pages in, and I quit. This book is awful. Surprised you liked it.

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why is the book awful?

Sorry, posted from my phone as I rage quit the book yesterday. Should have given a better explanation. Anyways, I grudgingly pulled it back off the shelf last night bc it will drive me nuts to have an 80% finished book on my bookcase. I'll post my thoughts on it later from work.

sorry for the delay, got busy actually doing work yesterday. ok, so here's my thoughts on the book, and please keep in mind that this is from the perspective of a Marine officer.

1) the book is written at like a ninth grade reading level. I mean I seriously just read a sentence that went something like "he remembered there were koy fish in the pond, so he went back to get one. but when he got there they were gone!" really, with the exclamation marks? they're all over this book. it's hard to say your book is a serious historical account when you've got it riddled with exclamation points.


2) I get that it's low hanging fruit, which is why so many authors and journalists love to go after it, but his constant dogging of officers is wearisome. WAY too many unverified accounts of officer doing foolish things. at one part he tells a story about lance corporal so and so who saw an officer (unnamed of course) who shot and killed boy running through a field. then the exchange goes something like: Marine - "sir why did you do that?" officer - "he was probably VC, what was he doing here?" Marine - "sir this is their country!" get the **** out. there is absolutely nothing to verify that BS story, save for (presumably) the interview he did with the Marine years later. there are silly accounts like that throughout this entire book, with heroic young enlisted Marines and foolish officers.

along the same lines is his casual use of the nickname "Westy" every time he talks about General Westmoreland. regardless of what your opinion is about him, we're talking about a four star general here, and a theater commander. what, is Bowden his best buddy? were they childhood friends? again, in a serious historical account of a battle, get rid of the nicknames. it's obvious Bowden doesn't like Westmoreland, as is obvious from his constant derision of him. Westmoreland was fighting a difficult war, in a difficult time, with a difficult CINC. show some ****ing respect.


3) he tries hard to act like he knows all about the military, and especially the Marine Corps, but he doesn't, and it comes off as fake and try-hard. he likes to call gunnery sergeants "gunny sergeants", which just isn't something Marines say. you call them "gunnery sergeant" or "gunny", and that's it. he'll mention a lance corporal so-and-so, and then for the rest of the story, he'll refer to him as "corporal". a lance corporal isn't a corporal. a lance corporal is a ****ing lance corporal, as any REAL corporal will let you know right quick. he also uses lowercase marine instead of Marine. the conventional way to talk about the US Marines is to capitalize Marine. he clearly knows this, as he leaves it capitalized when he quotes other articles and books. he made a conscious decision to NOT capitalize it. why? it's just annoying and distracting.

I get that the majority of readers wont catch many or any of these nuances, but to a Marine it's all obnoxious. the army is very casual about their customs and courtesies, but the Marine Corps is not. if you're going to write a whole book about one of the biggest and most recognized battles in Marine Corps history, maybe learn a little bit about the branch you're writing about.


4) his constant tangents about journalists is obnoxious. I don't care about these reporters one iota. it's clear that he reveres them as lions of his trade or whatever, and maybe they are, but this is a book about a battle, not a book about war correspondents. I don't need four or five pages on how reporter so and so traveled from America all the way to Hue (get it?) and how important their news reports were. Walter Cronkite was a big deal. Got it. let's move on.


5) the entire flow of the battle is impossible to follow. there are maps at the beginning, but that is no help. something as complex as the battle of Hue was, needs maps and numbered buildings and troop positions shown throughout the narrative. 400 pages in, and I basically understand that there was something called the Triangle, something called the Citadel, and a tower (all of which I already knew). lots of roads and buildings. some cars here and there. a soccer stadium. my knowledge of this battle has not increased one bit from this book. I could literally get more out of the Wikipedia article.


anyways, that's my rant. I'm clearly biased, but it is what it is.

Finished the book last night. His epilogue didn't help change my mind much about him, but it was at least better than an oddball collection of memories from junior troops. He doubled down on casting almost all of the blame for vietnam on General Westmoreland, and even managed to sling some mud on Nixon. LBJ, the main perpetrator of the whole she-bang gets of nearly lily white. Imagine that.

And of course a few more paragraphs and pages about how important journalists are.

Presley OBannons Sword said:

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Finished the book last night. His epilogue didn't help change my mind much about him, but it was at least better than an oddball collection of memories from junior troops. He doubled down on casting almost all of the blame for vietnam on General Westmoreland, and even managed to sling some mud on Nixon. LBJ, the main perpetrator of the whole she-bang gets of nearly lily white. Imagine that.

And of course a few more paragraphs and pages about how important journalists are.

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I appreciate you expanding on your comment and I definitely see where you are coming from.