Game of Thrones - Season 7

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CapCityAg89
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11:14a, 8/2/17
AG
Unsullied are not trained as commanders. Losing Selmy was a huge loss for Dany.

And we don't really know when Tarly turned coat. If it was at the beginning of the battle, they were likely behind the lines. He may. It have Freyed the Tyrells but it was likely damned close despite his protesting to Jamie about honor.
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redline248
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11:30a, 8/2/17
AG
Grey Worm seems to have a good understanding of military tactics. That's why he was chosen, by the Unsullied, to lead them.

Also, if Tarly sided with Jaime it was implied the rest of the houses in the reach would too. So Tyrell stood alone.
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redline248
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In reply to Squirrel Master • 11:43a, 8/2/17
AG
Squirrel Master said:
bangobango said:
Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.
I had forgotten the details of the fight, but even as you describe, he's a great fighter. That said, if we're going to identify individual battles, his fight and defeat of the White Walker at Hardhome is the single best sword fight in the show, and he won.


To be honest, it's not a great sword fight. It starts with Jon trying to find some dragonglass, and the walker grabs him from behind and throws him across the room, causing him to drop his sword. Jon grabs the closest sword he can find, gets that one shattered and is smashed in the chest by the handle of the walker's weapon. He runs outside, finds Longclaw, and turns in time to block the killing blow. Now the only thing that happens is he ducks a swing and kills the walker with the counter strike.

Not a great fight, but shows why Jon is a great swordsman. On equal footing, he ends fights almost immediately. I think his fight with the Thenn is the longest fight he's ever been in. Everyone else dies in one or 2 swings.
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bangobango
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In reply to redline248 • 12:00p, 8/2/17
AG
redline248 said:
Squirrel Master said:
bangobango said:
Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.
I had forgotten the details of the fight, but even as you describe, he's a great fighter. That said, if we're going to identify individual battles, his fight and defeat of the White Walker at Hardhome is the single best sword fight in the show, and he won.


To be honest, it's not a great sword fight. It starts with Jon trying to find some dragonglass, and the walker grabs him from behind and throws him across the room, causing him to drop his sword. Jon grabs the closest sword he can find, gets that one shattered and is smashed in the chest by the handle of the walker's weapon. He runs outside, finds Longclaw, and turns in time to block the killing blow. Now the only thing that happens is he ducks a swing and kills the walker with the counter strike.

Not a great fight, but shows why Jon is a great swordsman. On equal footing, he ends fights almost immediately. I think his fight with the Thenn is the longest fight he's ever been in. Everyone else dies in one or 2 swings.


Believe he had a lengthy fight with anoyher Nights Watch in Craster's keep that went on for a while. Believe he lucked out in that one, too.
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dc509
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12:04p, 8/2/17
AG
Jon Snow can fight, and he can lead. If we're really disputing that then we're looking for things to nitpick. He'll show his full capability soon enough. I'm sure he'll have setbacks, but that's how this show goes.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Squirrel Master • 12:09p, 8/2/17
AG
Squirrel Master said:
bangobango said:
Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.
I had forgotten the details of the fight, but even as you describe, he's a great fighter. That said, if we're going to identify individual battles, his fight and defeat of the White Walker at Hardhome is the single best sword fight in the show, and he won.


Howland & Ned disagree.
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12:10p, 8/2/17
dc509
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 12:11p, 8/2/17
AG
aggie1906 said:
Squirrel Master said:
bangobango said:
Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.
I had forgotten the details of the fight, but even as you describe, he's a great fighter. That said, if we're going to identify individual battles, his fight and defeat of the White Walker at Hardhome is the single best sword fight in the show, and he won.


Howland & Ned disagree.
Speaking of... Is Howland going to make an appearance this season? Present day Howland I mean.
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Carl Underguard
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12:15p, 8/2/17
AG
I believe Craster's wife saved Jon at Craster's Keep.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to dc509 • 12:16p, 8/2/17
AG
I always assumed so because:
  • We've already been introduced to his children and a reunion with Meera would serve as an emtional payoff for her trials and closure for Jojen's death
  • We've already seen Howland in character in the 'flashback'
  • He is the only remaining eye witness to account for Jon's parentage

Sure, Bran can tell whoever he wants...but good luck getting any sort of credibility after explaining what a fookin '3 eyed raven' is lol. Introducing Howland wouldn't take much time and it wouldn't seem like left field 'retcon-ing' due to the above 3 points.
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Urban Ag
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12:17p, 8/2/17
AG
In regards to Jon some of you are missing the forest for the trees.

Jon is revered in North and by pretty much anyone who know of him because of his body work, not for one off situations that can be over analyzed to death. It's Jon's willingness to lead and make tough choices, his loyalty, and his willingness to sacrifice himself that has earned him his reputation.

He joined the NW when he could have lived the relative good life at Winterfell. Forsaking (at the time at least) any inheritance from the Starks, female companionship, and having children of his own.

He ranged north of the wall and volunteered to go on the mission with the Halfhand. He followed orders and killed him and infiltrated Mance's army.

He refused to kill the farmer, putting himself in grave danger, and broke with the Wildlings and returned to the Wall (taking several arrows in the process).

He stood up to the NW commanders who labeled him a traitor, never backing down from his stance that he followed his orders.

He was instrumental in the defense of the wall and the battle for Castle Black.

He treated with Mance Rayder on what was essentially a suicide mission.

In the series he lead the mission to Craster's to kill the NW traitors.

He was elected Lord Commander.

He made the unpopular choice to save as many Wildlings are he could, for strategic and humanitarian purposes. He ultimately was murdered for that decision.

In the series, he lead the mission to Hardhome and evacuated as many as he could against impossible odds. Wildlings and NW alike watched him fight to literally the last boat available to flee.

He was willing to die to take back Winterfell and unite the North. This was much more about his dedication to re-uniting the North to stand against the WW that it was family honor or vengeance.

And most recently, against better judgement he goes to meet with Dany no knowing if this will go well or if he'll become dinner. Again, because he sees the bigger picture and for his people to survive he needs her help.

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Carl Underguard
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12:18p, 8/2/17
AG
To paraphrase the Hound here, the great swordsman (Jon) got killed by ****ing Olly?!?
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smokeythebear
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 12:54p, 8/2/17
AG
M.C. Swag said:
This is absurd. Tyrion is literally the smartest character in the story. And in the specific case of military strategy, his contributions to Blackwater Bay was not properly evidenced by the show. Tyrion spent months constructing a giant metal net throughout book 3 that the reader was given no hint of it's purpose. It wasn't until Stannis' fleet crossed into the bay, that the humongous metal net was raised from the bottom of the ocean floor and trapped every single vessel in wildfire soaked water. I vividly remember thinking, 'holy *****..that's what Tyrion was building.'

Basically, the imp decimated the entire fleet by himself with resources that weren't handed to him by anyone against an enemy who had him vastly outmanned.

Beyond that, he commanded the Stone Crows in many skirmishes and 1 large battle. Every one of which was victorious for them. The Stone Crows follow Tyrion to King's Landing and takes part in the city's defense during the battle of blackwater bay, where Tyrion sends them into the kingswood to harass and harry Stannis's army as it approaches the city. They are so effective at killing Stannis's scouts and outriders that he remains blind to the Lannister and Tyrell force that comes upon him from the kingswood

Military strategy is chess and Tyrion is the best at both. Along with those skills he's a master negotiator and cunningly resourceful. Just because he didn't foresee Euron appearing out of nowhere to aid Cersei, doesn't make him any less capable.
I haven't read the books so any textual evidence that isn't in the show won't show up in my rankings. In the show, Tyrion sweet talks the Stone Crows into keeping him alive and then he gets knocked out almost immediately in that battle. At Blackwater, he makes a really smart move to use the wildfire, but that's about it in terms of battlefield commander as he still would have lost the fight without Tywin showing up at the last minute. This is the first time he's ever been asked to draw up battle plans and he takes three hard L's straight to the face (Yara, Greyworm, Olenna).

I agree with you that Tyrion is one of the smartest characters in the show, and he's definitely the top draft choice for the King's (or Queen's) Hand. He's good at politics, at negotiating, at thinking outside the box, and at winning people over. But he's never been trained in military strategy the way the other people on the list have. That's just a fact. Any ruler needs a Hand and they ALSO need a military commander. It's unlikely the talents that make a person good at one transitions to being good at the other.
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MW03
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12:55p, 8/2/17
AG
A couple of other names for the conversation that may fit in somewhere...

Tormund
Littlefinger (or whoever is calling the shots for the Knights of the Vale)
Maybe Brienne
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JJxvi
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1:01p, 8/2/17
AG
In the books Tyrion basically wins the battle of the blackwater but Tywin and Highharden get all the credit.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to JJxvi • 1:03p, 8/2/17
AG
JJxvi said:
In the books Tyrion basically wins the battle of the blackwater but Tywin and Highharden get all the credit.


Pretty sure it was in the show too
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to smokeythebear • 1:04p, 8/2/17
AG
lol TA loves to apologize for 'offending' whenever their assertions have been summarily refuted.

So no, I'm not offended. Just pointing out the incredulity of you making a list of ' military strategists' in GoT and putting Tyrion at the bottom. Especially when you're just assuming Tarly, Dickon, and Jorah are somehow better at it for no other reason than being trained as SOLDIERS, while having actually 0 airtime evidence to back these overall battle strategy talent assertions up.

Tyrion is the one with the actual experience and pelts on the wall. He's won individual and large scale battles and most as an underdog. The fact he's accomplished what he has without that 'training' doesn't belittle those strategic talents...it bolsters them.

EDIT: To include "Military*" for Smokey's sake
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AgMarauder04
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In reply to Rudyjax • 1:04p, 8/2/17
AG
Unthought Known said:
JJxvi said:
In the books Tyrion basically wins the battle of the blackwater but Tywin and Highharden get all the credit.


Pretty sure it was in the show too
Exactly. The Lannister relief army is what saved KL in the show.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 1:05p, 8/2/17
AG
In the show, Cersei admits to Tyrion that KL would have fallen with Tyrions efforts. (That's also despite Joffrey even trying to kill him on the battlefield)
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AgMarauder04
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 1:07p, 8/2/17
AG
Yeah, but that was what, in private? Enough to not give him the credit he deserved.
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smokeythebear
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 1:08p, 8/2/17
AG
M.C. Swag said:
lol TA loves to apologize for 'offending' whenever their assertions have been summarily refuted.

So no, I'm not offended. Just pointing out the incredulity of you making a list of 'strategists' in GoT and putting Tyrion at the bottom. Especially when you're just assuming Tarly, Dickon, and Jorah are somehow better at it for no other reason than being trained as SOLDIERS, while having actually 0 textual or airtime evidence to back these overall battle strategy talent assertions up.

Tyrion is the one with the actual experience and pelts on the wall. He's won individual and large scale battles and most as an underdog. The fact he's accomplished what he has without that 'training' doesn't belittle those strategic talents...it bolsters them.

He won ONE battle and he won it because of a secret weapon. I'm not talking about "strategists", I'm talking specifically about "military strategy". Littlefinger is a master "strategist", but he's not even on the list when talking about "military strategy". On the other hand, Ned was a terrible "strategist", but great at "military strategy".

Not sure if you're just caught up on defending Tyrion or if you really can't draw the distinction between the two.
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DannyDuberstein
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1:08p, 8/2/17
AG
In the meantime, Tyrion gets shuffled off to a tiny-ass room and no public credit.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to smokeythebear • 1:11p, 8/2/17
AG
I understood your meaning from the get go and is why i limited my initial response to specifically Tryion's military exploits. My last post of 'strategist' was used in the prism of military endeavors. I thought that was clear.
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JJxvi
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1:14p, 8/2/17
AG
In the books the whole Lannister-Tyrell alliance is also orchestrated by Tyrion while Tywin is in the field fighting the Starks. He sends Littlefinger to arrange the Margaery-Joffrey betrothal. It is made clear that he was the entire driving force behind the whole thing and his father took almost all of the credit and the Tyrells got the rest.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 1:15p, 8/2/17
AG
I understand what happened but I'm trying to figure out if what you mean...are you saying Tyrion 'shouldn't have' received any credit for the battle? Because that's the point I was trying to make.

Apologies if I misunderstood.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to smokeythebear • 1:22p, 8/2/17
AG
Quote:
He won ONE battle and he won it because of a secret weapon.
So discovering a secret resource, weaponinzing it, and using that to defeat an army much larger than his own (all the while evading Joffrey's assassination attempt) is somehow a discredit to his victory?

And other than Jon, who exactly on your list has a better resume? Sure, we're told Tarly is a great soldier...but we haven't seen how he commands in the field. Sure, Jorah can fight...but we haven't seen him organize against, or strategize for, large assaults?

My counter points to you aren't out of some need to 'protect' a fictional character. I'm simply refuting you. The books provide far more substantial merits to Tyrion as a military leader than the show has for sure, but the show hasn't portrayed him beneath all those people you listed out either.
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smokeythebear
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 1:37p, 8/2/17
AG
Like I said, I haven't read the books so I can only go on what the show has portrayed. Tyrion gets credit for surviving as long as he did in the Battle of Blackwater. He "won" by surviving long enough for Tyrion to show up (the same way Jon "won" by surviving long enough for LF to show up). It was a very smart move to utilize the secret weapon in the way he did, but that's still not what I would consider a military strategist in the way Robb was able to out maneuver Jamie and Tywin or in how Robert and Ned defeated Rhaegar at the Twins. Further to Tyrion's credit, he came up with the plan to have Dany meet with the Masters and force their surrender. That was a great feat of out-witting the enemy. But on an open battlefield with two armies of equal strength, Tyrion wouldn't fare well in a straight up battle plan compared to Jamie, Tarly, or Jon. Tyrion looks for tricks or loopholes, but he isn't in the same class as the others when it comes to cavalry, infantry, archers, and creating a phalanx. At least not show Tyrion.

As to Tarly, Jamie compliments him by saying he was the only general who never lost a battle to Robert during Robert's Rebellion. He certainly has skins on the wall.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to smokeythebear • 1:39p, 8/2/17
AG
Quote:
It was a very smart move to utilize the secret weapon in the way he did, but that's still not what I would consider a military strategist...
Then you and I simply disagree on the fundamental definition of and qualities that make up a good military strategist.
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smokeythebear
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1:40p, 8/2/17
AG
I get that you don't agree with me, but the reality is I'm just rationalizing why Tyrion got his ass handed to him in his first ever experience in drawing up a multi-front battle plan. It never was his forte so we should forgive him for it instead of deeming him a failure.
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smokeythebear
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 1:41p, 8/2/17
AG
M.C. Swag said:
Quote:
It was a very smart move to utilize the secret weapon in the way he did, but that's still not what I would consider a military strategist...
Then you and I simply disagree on the fundamental definition of and qualities that make up a good military strategist.
So by your definition, Dany is the ultimate military strategist because she has dragons?
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 1:45p, 8/2/17
M.C. Swag
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In reply to smokeythebear • 1:48p, 8/2/17
AG
smokeythebear said:
M.C. Swag said:
Quote:
It was a very smart move to utilize the secret weapon in the way he did, but that's still not what I would consider a military strategist...
Then you and I simply disagree on the fundamental definition of and qualities that make up a good military strategist.
So by your definition, Dany is the ultimate military strategist because she has dragons?
No, but I certainly wouldn't put a guy like Jorah or freakin Dickon above her either.

And if I wanted to poke holes in your list using your arbitray definition, I would simply ask what evidence you have that Randall didn't use any 'secret weapon' or wasn't given any assistance? You're extrapolating a single line of dialogue to inflate a character you've never seen in action. And if that weren't enough, whatever Randall's legit accomplisments may be, they somehow rub off onto his son? just because...why exactly? How many of those guys have EVER strategized for a multi front war?

My point was to point out how ridiculous your list is.
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gougler08
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1:54p, 8/2/17
AG
This thread by Wednesday or Thursday is such a bear to get through
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to [removed post] • 1:55p, 8/2/17
AG
I get that....again, it was more to point out the absurdity of the list as a whole and how Smokey rates Tryion at the bottom below knights, smugglers, and some rando's son. Euron miraculously showed up on Cersei's side with a navy that can apparently summon fireballs from nowhere and now Tyrion should take lessons from Dickon? lol
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to gougler08 • 1:56p, 8/2/17
AG
sowwy
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