Rex Racer said:

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I think Ned would have buried evidence with Lyanna in the crypt. And LF is there to discover it.

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Why would Ned bury evidence in the crypt? He didn't know he was going to die. He told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time he saw him. He had no idea that was the last time he would see Jon.

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Moral conscience to eventually let the truth be known one day when it was safe to come out? I would assume it must be hidden or in some kind of code. Does anyone remember what significance ever came from Bran's constant trips to the crypt in his dreams (following the 3-eyed raven)?

All I'm saying is that there has to be some kind of physical proof around to corroborate the story once Bran shows back up saying "Jon is actually a Targ!" I highly doubt many people are going to understand or believe him when he says he can look through time by touching trees and that he saw the moment when Jon was born. They'll probably need something a little more tangible to see.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Rex Racer said:

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I think Ned would have buried evidence with Lyanna in the crypt. And LF is there to discover it.

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Why would Ned bury evidence in the crypt? He didn't know he was going to die. He told Jon they would talk about his mother the next time he saw him. He had no idea that was the last time he would see Jon.

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I don't think Ned was stupid.

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Given some of the decisions he made that led to his death, one might argue that point.

If Ellaria and Tyene die (likely), who rules Dorne in the absence of any Martells? There's still an army down there.

jenn96 said:

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Lots and lots of good stuff. Here are some of my thoughts, touching on a lot of the same points y'all have made.

Jon and Littlefinger - it is even more obvious to me that Littlefinger knows who Jon's parents are. Even if he doesn't have proof (and he may, from a bribed servant or something), it's something that is just a common sense realization. I can even see Tyrion figuring it out, simple by following a logical train of thought, a la "Yes, everyone was so shocked when Ned came back from the war with a b-stard; it was so incredibly out of character for him to betray his vows to his wife when honor meant everything to him. He went to Dorne to get his sister who had been kidnapped and ravished by Rhaegar Targaryon for almost a year and came home with...a...baby. And raised it with his own children. Hmm."

Littlefinger has probably made that mental leap too, and once one is looking for proof he may have found it. He might have been keeping it under wraps to use to turn Robert against Ned but didn't have to since Robert died. But he definitely believes that for the Lords of the North there is a world of difference between Ned Stark's son and Rhagaer Targaryion's son no matter who their mothers are. He'll use it when he needs to.

I don't think Jon or Sansa or even Arya know that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and was the one who literally put him on the chopping block - they might, but it's hard to believe that he would still be alive. If they find out, one possible, albeit unlikely, way - one person who does know - was standing right behind the throne when Littlefinger turned on Ned. Both Sansa and Arya have reason to trust the Hound and he's headed up North. I have always had a feeling from the books that Sansa and the Hound will find each other again, not romantically but as allies of some sort. But I'm sure some of that is just wishful thinking on my part because I would love to get all those characters together in the same room.

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This sounds absolutely perfect.

Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:

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Apache said:

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I may have missed it during the show, but when Euron destroyed the fleet & captured Yara - were the armies of Dorne and Highgarden on board yet? Or were the ships just in route to pick them up?

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En route
I believe the sisters were talking about when they get to drone below deck

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They were still headed to Dorne. Elaria told Yara she would give her good wine when they got there, better than the beer they had on the ship.

M.C. Swag said:

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smokeythebear said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Those seem like some mental gymnastics. I just disagree. Ned betraying his honor and keeping the mother a secret should have been incentive enough for LF to followup on. Its precisely the type of information he would seek and acquire. Again, the intended purpose of that information would never have been to hurt Jon...it would have been to hurt Ned. Or Robert through Ned. Either way, it should have aroused his suspicions well before and had he discovered the truth of it...there's no doubt in my mind that the time to use it was precisely when Ned was Hand to the King.

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So what is your argument then? That Littlefinger doesn't know? Or that he won't ever know? I think we both agree that he definitely didn't know back when Ned was alive.

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I've stated it earlier. I think Jon's parentage is eventually confirmed by Howland Reed.

I think LF's angle is exactly what the show has been hinting...he'll continue to attempt to drive a wedge between Jon and Sansa.

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If my hunch is correct, LF only has one more important part to play, and that's not it.

What are you hinting at? You read spoilers or something?

G Martin 87 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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smokeythebear said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Those seem like some mental gymnastics. I just disagree. Ned betraying his honor and keeping the mother a secret should have been incentive enough for LF to followup on. Its precisely the type of information he would seek and acquire. Again, the intended purpose of that information would never have been to hurt Jon...it would have been to hurt Ned. Or Robert through Ned. Either way, it should have aroused his suspicions well before and had he discovered the truth of it...there's no doubt in my mind that the time to use it was precisely when Ned was Hand to the King.

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So what is your argument then? That Littlefinger doesn't know? Or that he won't ever know? I think we both agree that he definitely didn't know back when Ned was alive.

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I've stated it earlier. I think Jon's parentage is eventually confirmed by Howland Reed.

I think LF's angle is exactly what the show has been hinting...he'll continue to attempt to drive a wedge between Jon and Sansa.

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If my hunch is correct, LF only has one more important part to play, and that's not it.

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You might be right:

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When it comes to faces and possible uses for them, I don't think anyone else is looking at the big picture. LF's face is possibly the most valuable one in all of Westeros.

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I never thought of that until you wrote it but Arya could do quite a bit of damage as Littlefinger. Maybe he will sit the Iron Throne after all..

No, honestly just an idea I had today while talking about the episode and thinking through the problem of how to get close to some of Arya's targets. From a writer's point of view, LF has been positioned perfectly, given what we know about a certain character's abilities and heading. LF will stay in Winterfell as long as Sansa does, and Jon just put her in charge of Winterfell. He's not going anywhere. His face might, though...

Regarding the "Warden of the South" title and the earlier complaining about why wasn't that just the same as the "Lord Paramount" title. I agree that the way the show presented it last night is confusing because they made it sound like it was the same thing as moving the Tarlys above the Tyrells in terms of feudal vassal position, but that is not the case or wasn't in the books.

"Warden" would be a Seven Kingdoms level military title akin to "General" so its basically designating the person who is in command of the crown's troops and for managing the defense in certain regions. It's akin to the administrative positions like "Hand of the King" or "Master of the Coin" that the King could theoretically give to anybody in the realm. And this person may or may not be one of the Lords Paramount of one of the regions although it seems that the decentralized feudal rule has allowed certain houses to hold the Warden titles by heredity in times of peace.

In the books for example, after Jon Arryn dies, the Warden of the East title does not directly go to Arryn's son. Robert gives it to Jaime Lannister who as a member of the Kingsguard does not even hold any landed title, much less one in the East. But Robert/Sweetrobin Arryn was always the Lord of the Vale as soon as his father died even without the Warden title. Tywin later gives the title back to the Arryns in return for gaining back their allegience.

Jon's parentage reveal (or others being convinced of it at least) could be done with a combination of factors (most already mentioned).
-Bran's visions (maybe he tells everyone intimate details of their lives to convince them that he can see the past)
-Howland Reed's eyewitness account (he better show up in this series, but even if he does few people respect the Crannogmen the way Ned did)
-Jon having some kind of meaningful interaction with a dragon (likely the best way to convince Dany since no one but those with Targ blood have been able to ride dragons, with the exception of the other families of Valyria that were wiped out)
-Some kind of physical object linking him to the Targs (speculation is that Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's crypt. Also, the very fact that Lyanna has a crypt is odd. Only the Kings/Lords of the North traditionally had crypts. Could it be that she was given the exception because she was legitimately married to royalty after all? They haven't introduced the harp into this story (and it still doesn't prove anything), but it's about the only physical thing I can think of that might work at this point)

Going back to the Jon-Dany meeting: I agree with a lot of the points already raised. I expect Jon to make some sort of challenge to Dany to protect her kingdom if she is truly the rightful ruler (the argument that Davos made to make Stannis go north) or at least say something about how it doesn't matter who bends be knee right now because there won't be a kingdom to rule over if she doesn't focus on the true threat. He could even tell her that killing him then and there won't matter if she wants him to help her fight for the throne because the north wouldn't hold without her and they'd be dead eventually anyway.

It really must be hella expensive to render them. Grey Wind was supposed to be with Robb all the time in battle and Ghost should be with Jon. Next to him in battle, at the foot of the table in meetings, etc

JCRiley09 said:

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It really must be hella expensive to render them. Grey Wind was supposed to be with Robb all the time in battle and Ghost should be with Jon. Next to him in battle, at the foot of the table in meetings, etc

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Personally, I thought the Nymeria scene was not of the same quality as previous scenes with Ghost. But I was actually kind of happy to see that, because I'd rather a little less CGI and a little more screen time. Also, it allowed them to finally show how big the dire wolves really are. Seeing a fully grown Nymeria reminded you that as cool as Ghost is, he was the runt of the litter.

Realistically, the only way an alliance should come from this meeting is through marriage. Why should Jon expect her help unless he's going to renounce being the King in the North, but then he's going against all his own bannermen who can easily just say, "well **** it, he's not a Stark anyway" and likely just at the moment Bran shows back up. And why would she ever trust that Jon Snow would stay loyal to her if she let him keep his title and independence? But if they are married to each other, their fortunes are tied for as long as that lasts. There is a reason we've seen various houses go from allies to enemies as soon as a marriage breaks down. It'll be kind of lame to me if this doesn't end up with a marriage pact unless it pretty much goes nowhere like the other times we've seen this discussion (Robb-Stannis, Robb-Renly, etc). It's already eye rolling that nobody brought it up before Snow left. That should have been what they discussed. "She's single, I'm single....so what should we do?" not "Oh but what if she muuuuuuurders youuuuu"

G Martin 87 said:

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No, honestly just an idea I had today while talking about the episode and thinking through the problem of how to get close to some of Arya's targets. From a writer's point of view, LF has been positioned perfectly, given what we know about a certain character's abilities and heading. LF will stay in Winterfell as long as Sansa does, and Jon just put her in charge of Winterfell. He's not going anywhere. His face might, though...

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Good thought!

Personally, I'd be pretty surprised if this was the end of the LF. He's been a pretty integral character ever since the very first episode. That puts him in the same category as Jamie, Tyrion, Varys, and the Mountain. He's outlasted a whole lot of people too. If he does die (which I kind of don't want him to because I like him) then I'd hope it is by Sansa handing him over to Cersi and telling her who really killed Joffrey.

JJxvi said:

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Realistically, the only way an alliance should come from this meeting is through marriage. Why should Jon expect her help unless he's going to renounce being the King in the North, but then he's going against all his own bannermen who can easily just say, "well **** it, he's not a Stark anyway" and likely just at the moment Bran shows back up. And why would she ever trust that Jon Snow would stay loyal to her if she let him keep his title and independence? There is a reason we've seen various houses go from allies to enemies as soon as a marriage breaks down. It'll be kind of lame to me if this doesn't end up with a marriage pact unless it pretty much goes nowhere like the other times we've seen this discussion (Robb-Stannis, Robb-Renly, etc). It's already eye rolling that nobody brought it up before Snow left. That should have been what they discussed. "She's single, I'm single....so what should we do?"

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Really??? Pretty sure marriage is the LAST thing on Jon's mind and Dani just ditched a guy back in Mereen. I don't think she's going to be that quick to jump into a marriage proposal while she's laying siege to King's Landing. But hey, you could be right.

It's middle ages feudalism. The fact that nobody on either side even mentioned getting married, or that Dany's advisors haven't already been giving her options about which lords she could marry to help their cause is kinda ridiculous. Same with Snow, honestly. In the first couple seasons that was basically the whole diplomatic game, but I guess Martin wrote that stuff.

Something I've been kicking around is that Arya has to screw up at some point of this murder-mission she's on. All of our main characters have made questionable decisions to show their imperfections as they became more powerful. I wonder if she'll kill LF, thinking she's doing Sansa a favor, but actually hurting whatever plan Sansa had.

smokeythebear said:

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JCRiley09 said:

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It really must be hella expensive to render them. Grey Wind was supposed to be with Robb all the time in battle and Ghost should be with Jon. Next to him in battle, at the foot of the table in meetings, etc

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Personally, I thought the Nymeria scene was not of the same quality as previous scenes with Ghost. But I was actually kind of happy to see that, because I'd rather a little less CGI and a little more screen time. Also, it allowed them to finally show how big the dire wolves really are. Seeing a fully grown Nymeria reminded you that as cool as Ghost is, he was the runt of the litter.

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Yeah you could tell they were zooming the camera as close as possible most the time so that they didn't have to render anything. That being said, it was cool to see her.

JJxvi said:

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It's feudalism. The fact that nobody on either side even mentioned getting married, or that Dany's advisors haven't already been giving her options about which lord she could marry is ridiculous.

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I kind of agree, but also I'm sure several houses in the north would be willing to put up wives for Jon and they'd probably ALL be pissed if he marries someone who isn't from the North so I could see him not bringing it up right away.

I do think this has definitely been discussed on Dany's side though with her advisors.

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I kind of agree, but also I'm sure several houses in the north would be willing to put up wives for Jon and they'd probably ALL be pissed if he marries someone who isn't from the North so I could see him not bringing it up right away.

I do think this has definitely been discussed on Dany's side though with her advisors.

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I mean they showed both sides discussing the motivations for this team up, and neither side was even worried about it, despite Dany asking for multiple people's opinions on Snow, and for John actually gathering his whole council and talking it out with them. They were all just worried about her killing him or whatever. Both sides would have at least discussed marriage, because that's what they should be expecting the other side to offer to seal any kind of pact, even if neither side wanted to do it from their POV.

Right, and I'm just skeptical that she would give up her "trump card" to the first guy she meets in Westeros.

I certainly could be wrong, but it just seems really weird that y'all are so excited for some marriage proposal. I picture their meeting being extremely awkward and suspicious. I get that arranged marriages are done to make alliances, but I think that kind of thing happens AFTER the big battle, when everyone is done fighting and they all want to get along.

Gotcha

kinda small thing to be upset about imo

Here's something I've been wondering. How did Sam know to send a raven for Jon to Winterfell? As far as we know, Sam doesn't know that Jon was killed, brought back to life, left the Nights Watch, and became king in the north. He still thinks Jon is the Lord Commander.

It happens repeatedly before the big battles to determine who is on what side throughout the series so far. Stark-Frey and Tully-Frey marriage is negotiated immediately before hostilities. Renly Baratheon-Tyrell Alliance occurs before hostilities. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is negotiated immediately after Battle of the Blackwater to secure an alliance in the ongoing war. Tywin wants to marry off Cersei immediately. There is political intrigue among Lannisters and Tyrells over who will marry Sansa, etc etc etc. Diplomacy occurs almost exclusively through marriage repeatedly.

I'm not "excited about some marriage proposal," I'm just saying its really stupid that they left that out and it would be even dumber if this meeting and an alliance happens without it being even discussed. It makes me think they either really are going to spring that on an audience they hope will be unsuspecting, or they are just too lazy to think out realistic motivations for their characters.

Probably just leaving that up to chance that since Jon and Sam a besties, Jon probably let Sam know he'd returned to Winterfell.

Nobody has said they'd get married next week, but an alliance makes all the sense in the world. There's no doubt they will be wary of each other early on, but it makes too much sense for them to EVENTUALLY align.

TrueAggie42 said:

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Here's something I've been wondering. How did Sam know to send a raven for Jon to Winterfell? As far as we know, Sam doesn't know that Jon was killed, brought back to life, left the Nights Watch, and became king in the north. He still thinks Jon is the Lord Commander.

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I think we can assume they have been in regular communication. Things are happening over fairly long periods, sam was even involved in a montage.