Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Craster is the ONLY reason the WWs returned. But I do think he helped them strengthen their army much faster than they would have been able to do without him, but yea this specific long winter was probably always going to be their next attempted invasion.

We can all agree that there are at LEAST as many WWs as babies sacrificed by Craster though, right?

smokeythebear said:

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OnlyForNow said:

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Uh ya, a short thin person; not completely dissimilar to her actual physical build.

She isn't going to magically grow to 7 feet tall.

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Well as best as I can tell, the whole process is, quite literally, magic.

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I think that is exactly what it is. Magic, spirituality, whatever you want to call it. A gift from the Many Faced God once you have proven yourself worthy of being bestowed with it. Who knows. But it's clearly more than just pulling on the mask made from a dead person.

The Faceless Man that tried to kill Dany at Astapor appeared as a child no more than 10 years old.

Thats a valid question considering Crasters sons werent turned into wights (zombies) but into the blue-eyed WWs that seem to be the leaders.

But can infants become adult WWs in the freezing cold, or are they arrested as infants?

smokeythebear said:

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aggie1906 said:

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I feel like way too much good has been happening lately.

Everyone seems to love the Starks & Dany. Well we have a reunion at the wall, Ramsey defeated violently, Jon named KotN, Aria is getting all sorts of revenge, and Dany gained allies, ships, and is all of a sudden across the globe to Westeros. The last remotely "bad" thing to happen to the fan favs is that the most pointless Stark died.

I think it may be time for some more Ls.

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You're forgetting Hodor, Margery, and Daario. They all took some hard L's last season and they were fan favorites too.

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Who the f-ck had Daario as a fan favorite?

The OG Daario was pretty cool

smokeythebear said:

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Craster is the ONLY reason the WWs returned. But I do think he helped them strengthen their army much faster than they would have been able to do without him, but yea this specific long winter was probably always going to be their next attempted invasion.

We can all agree that there are at LEAST as many WWs as babies sacrificed by Craster though, right?

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Consider this. Craster has been living out there for a long ass time. Some of his daughter-wives are at least 20 or 30 years old. He's been giving the boys over to the walkers that whole time. However, the night king has been out there for a hell of a lot longer. I doubt Craster is/was the only source of babies.

I can't remember Old Nan's story, did she say the walkers take babies when she talked to Bran?

First Daario looked like some surfer dooosh that should be in Point Break, not GOT. I was waiting for him to tell Dany that if she wants the ultimate, she needs to be willing to pay the ultimate price.

The 2nd Daario is more Eric Bana-ish and a better GOT fit.

It is interesting Mormont knew and just minimized it, "craster serves masters darker than you know."

When we saw the Night King there were 10 WWs and then he turned the baby. Some people surmised the number of WWs (rulers) were limited while the wights (zombies) are unlimited.

But who knows?

I dont think the Faceless men actually change. I think they change what you see and hear. That would be a much better explanation.

LHIOB said:

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I dont think the Faceless men actually change. I think they change what you see and hear. That would be a much better explanation.

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I'll buy this too. Still powerful magic that, like other magic, is stronger with dragons around.

Yeah I think that's kind of how most of the Red God's magic works. From Melisandre's appearance, to showing people visions in the flame, I think it's changing how other people perceive you, than actually being physically transformed. Obviously there are cases of it working the other way though (shadow demon, beating death).

A point though is that it really doesn't matter because the magic isn't just the way you see the subject of the magic - they feel and sound different as well.

Lord of Bones was a tiny guy but when he was burned, he felt and looked like Manse who was a very big guy. Mel felt young to her various sexual partners.

The 1000 ships "plot hole".

http://mashable.com/2017/07/22/euron-greyjoy-1000-ships-game-of-thrones-plot-hole/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link#kD84FX0j2aqG

gougler08 said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Yeah I think that's kind of how most of the Red God's magic works. From Melisandre's appearance, to showing people visions in the flame, I think it's changing how other people perceive you, than actually being physically transformed. Obviously there are cases of it working the other way though (shadow demon, beating death).

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Do we think they'll ever follow up on Melsandre actually being 972648 years old or just leave us with that terrible vision of sagging boobs

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she is in the preview for this week's episode. but I will guess no, for now. unless/until Arya kills her.

gougler08 said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Yeah I think that's kind of how most of the Red God's magic works. From Melisandre's appearance, to showing people visions in the flame, I think it's changing how other people perceive you, than actually being physically transformed. Obviously there are cases of it working the other way though (shadow demon, beating death).

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Do we think they'll ever follow up on Melsandre actually being 972648 years old or just leave us with that terrible vision of sagging boobs

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I doubt they follow up on it. They're not going to explain a lot of things in this show. We still have 2 (short) seaons to go and I can already feel the Lost like backlash at things that aren't exaplained.

MBAR said:

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SeattleAgJr said:

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The 1000 ships "plot hole".

http://mashable.com/2017/07/22/euron-greyjoy-1000-ships-game-of-thrones-plot-hole/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link#kD84FX0j2aqG

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"I did a bit of digging and spoke to some historians and ship-building experts to find out if it's actually possible."

That line in the article killed me. If I tried to apply this logic to 10% of the stuff in GoT then the entire show is a damn plot hole. This is a textbook example of (pun totally intended) missing the forest for the trees.

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agreed.

but the plot hole is still very relevant. just like Varys's magical teleportation last season.

1000 ships, in a few months time. from an island with no trees.

MBAR said:

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gougler08 said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Yeah I think that's kind of how most of the Red God's magic works. From Melisandre's appearance, to showing people visions in the flame, I think it's changing how other people perceive you, than actually being physically transformed. Obviously there are cases of it working the other way though (shadow demon, beating death).

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Do we think they'll ever follow up on Melsandre actually being 972648 years old or just leave us with that terrible vision of sagging boobs

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I doubt they follow up on it. They're not going to explain a lot of things in this show. We still have 2 (short) seaons to go and I can already feel the Lost like backlash at things that aren't exaplained.

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when/IF Arya kills her, Mel could revert to her real form, explain that her time is done (since the WW threat will be now) and that she is ready to die.
Arya can then chose to kill or not.

Take up 5 minutes. Resolves everything at least from a TV POV.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Not only that but theon and Yara only stole 100 or so of his ships. Tyrion literally said to Dany with their 100 ships and the former masters ships they might have enough.

So assuming Enron had much more to start with and they only took the 100 best they only needed to build 100 to replace what was lost not 1000. I think the phrase was more of build me ships to replace those lost and with 1000 ships I'll give you the world. Not literally build me 1000 ships.

100 is much more plausible.

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except he uses the phrase "Here's I am, with a 1000 ships and two good hands" when talking with Cersei.
the show is presenting it as a literal 1000 ships

Ol Jock 99 said:

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Prediction...100 or a 1000...won't matter by Seasons End because all will be burnt.

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maybe. or not.

ships serve no purpose in a land war with the WW other than moving people around coasts.

also Beric's voice is pure sex..

That whole scene with the Band of Brothers was the best part of the first episode.

SeattleAgJr said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Not only that but theon and Yara only stole 100 or so of his ships. Tyrion literally said to Dany with their 100 ships and the former masters ships they might have enough.

So assuming Enron had much more to start with and they only took the 100 best they only needed to build 100 to replace what was lost not 1000. I think the phrase was more of build me ships to replace those lost and with 1000 ships I'll give you the world. Not literally build me 1000 ships.

100 is much more plausible.

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except he uses the phrase "Here's I am, with a 1000 ships and two good hands" when talking with Cersei.
the show is presenting it as a literal 1000 ships

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Well, it was Partyboy Euron that presented it as a literal 1000, but I'm not really sure how reliable he is.

Edit to add: especially given the context of the scene. He's just there trying to impress Cersei, of course he's gonna overexaggerate how many ships he's commanding

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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SeattleAgJr said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Not only that but theon and Yara only stole 100 or so of his ships. Tyrion literally said to Dany with their 100 ships and the former masters ships they might have enough.

So assuming Euron had much more to start with and they only took the 100 best they only needed to build 100 to replace what was lost not 1000. I think the phrase was more of build me ships to replace those lost and with 1000 ships I'll give you the world. Not literally build me 1000 ships.

100 is much more plausible.

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except he uses the phrase "Here's I am, with a 1000 ships and two good hands" when talking with Cersei.
the show is presenting it as a literal 1000 ships

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No. You missed my point. I'm not talking about then.

Last season Tyrion said Yara and theon brought her 100 ships. If they took 100 and he had 1000 before he only needed 100 built to again have 1000.

When he said build me 1000 ships maybe he meant a fleet of 1000.... but only 100 were needed to replace what they took.


1000-100+100=1000

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I get what you're saying. And that's probably how they justify building them so quickly...

But when he said that line - he had no idea Yara and NoJunk took his "100 best ships"... Which I would assume wouldn't have included his red sailed badass ship from the books.

So my point is when he said "BUILD me 1,000 ships" he probably means build and 1,000 of them - especially because he didn't know the hundred ships were gone.

El Hombre Mas Guapo said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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SeattleAgJr said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Not only that but theon and Yara only stole 100 or so of his ships. Tyrion literally said to Dany with their 100 ships and the former masters ships they might have enough.

So assuming Euron had much more to start with and they only took the 100 best they only needed to build 100 to replace what was lost not 1000. I think the phrase was more of build me ships to replace those lost and with 1000 ships I'll give you the world. Not literally build me 1000 ships.

100 is much more plausible.

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except he uses the phrase "Here's I am, with a 1000 ships and two good hands" when talking with Cersei.
the show is presenting it as a literal 1000 ships

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No. You missed my point. I'm not talking about then.

Last season Tyrion said Yara and theon brought her 100 ships. If they took 100 and he had 1000 before he only needed 100 built to again have 1000.

When he said build me 1000 ships maybe he meant a fleet of 1000.... but only 100 were needed to replace what they took.


1000-100+100=1000

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I get what you're saying. And that's probably how they justify building them so quickly...

But when he said that line - he had no idea Yara and NoJunk took his "100 best ships"... Which I would assume wouldn't have included his red sailed badass ship from the books.

So my point is when he said "BUILD me 1,000 ships" he probably means build and 1,000 of them - especially because he didn't know the hundred ships were gone.

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Not really following you now ......

He said the line build me a thousand ships right AFTER the other guy literally said they've taken our best ships and they could see them on the sea in front of them at the end of last season. He quite literally knew how many they took (approx) because he could see them.

Anyway. It certainly is a confusing way to say it at least if he meant something like this with what is "unsaid" or assumed in parens:

(they've taken 100 ships) build me (a fleet of) a 1000 ships and i'll give you the world.

and he knew he had X number and they took Y number so they only needed to build X-Y which was 100.

anyway. enough ship math.