Zombie Jon Snow said:

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But is the North really all together anyway they are pretty fractured currently.

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They were, but the declared Jon the King in the North near the end of last season. Wasn't there just one house that didn't agree and walked out?

Rex Racer said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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But is the North really all together anyway they are pretty fractured currently.

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They were, but the declared Jon the King in the North near the end of last season. Wasn't there just one house that didn't agree and walked out?

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Well I wasn't sure they were all represented there either. Who knows. I think 45k is highly optimistic given their losses and just how widespread they are plus winter and all that.

You know, if it ever comes out to the public that Jon is a Targaryen, it'll be interesting how Dany and Dorne react. Dany will probably be willing to ally with him, but not Dorne. He his, after all, the result of Rhaegar essentially casting aside his Dornish wife.

Yep. Saw that a few days ago. I'm curious if there is still that much to tell, why not have more than 6 episodes.

wangus12 said:

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Yep. Saw that a few days ago. I'm curious if there is still that much to tell, why not have more than 6 episodes.

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pacing

redline248 said:

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You know, if it ever comes out to the public that Jon is a Targaryen, it'll be interesting how Dany and Dorne react. Dany will probably be willing to ally with him, but not Dorne. He his, after all, the result of Rhaegar essentially casting aside his Dornish wife.

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but he is still a Targ, has the most direct claim to the throne, and he is against the Lannisters and the Reach

This.

I mean, Dany allied with a Lannister. All about who the person supports more so than the family name.

He may still be a Targ, but I wouldn't be shocked to see Jon basically renounce it because he was "raised a Stark"

He's a bast*rd either way, right? As far as we know, anyway.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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He's a bast*rd either way, right? As far as we know, anyway.

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This is the issue. If he's a ******* and hasn't been legitimized, he's got no claim.

The significance of Jon being Stark/Targ has nothing to do with birthrights. He's a ******* and has none. The significance is that he represents a bridge between 2 ancient houses with substantial influence within the realm. Additonally, the throne can be granted by birth or conquest. Robert Baratheon took it by conquest. Jon and or Dany can take it back through the same means. Jon's parentage makes him a natural born ally for Dany in this conquest.

M.C. Swag said:

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The significance of Jon being Stark/Targ has nothing to do with birthrights. He's a ******* and has none. The significance is that he represents a bridge between 2 ancient houses with substantial influence within the realm. Additonally, the throne can be granted by birth or conquest. Robert Baratheon took it by conquest. Jon and or Dany can take it back through the same means. Jon's parentage makes him a natural born ally for Dany in this conquest.

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Robert had tangential claims to the throne. Orys Baratheon, the founder of their house, was probably Aegon the Conqueror's half-brother, and Robert's paternal grandmother was also a Targaryen princess.

Jon's claim is not a strong claim by virtue of *******y, but it's not a non-existent one either. Henry VII, the first Tudor, "claimed" the throne because his mother's grandfather was the ******* son of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, who was Edward III's son. His father was basically upjumped Welsh gentry.

By comparison, Jon's claim as Rhaegar's ******* may not be legitimate, but in times of crisis far weaker claims have prevailed.

Robert and Ned even have the discussion about it. Robert says Ned should have taken the crown, and Ned replies Robert had the better claim.

Still, the"validity" of claims is realistically irrelevant in war. Big enough armies can validate any ruler.

Did the throne come with Cersei? Or would Ned have married Cat either way?

I don't remember that detail.

Robert married Cersei after the war. He already had the throne but it was a political move to strengthen his position allying house Lannister with the crown.

But eddard and catelyn were married before or really at the onset of Roberts rebellion after aerys executed Eddards brother Brandon and father lord Rickard stark. Double wedding for catelyn and eddard and Jon aryn and Lyssa. Arranged by catelyn and lyssa's father. They were strangers before marrying. And then Eddard rode off to war shortly after.

So yeah he married catelyn long before that and there was no crown offer involved. When he returned form war Robb was born and he had the young Jon Snow in tow under pretense of his *******.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Did the throne come with Cersei? Or would Ned have married Cat either way?

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Whoever became king was winning the Cersei door prize... Cat was promised to Ned's older brother until he was roasted in his armor like a silver turtle. Then she passed to Ned

Still doesn't make sense. Rhaegar was already married.

Yeah, I remember now. Ned was already married to Cat who he inherited from his brother.

So Ned could've been king and Starks would've remained safely in power with [what appeared to be] a good successor in Robb.

Damn it, Ned.

M.C. Swag said:

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Still doesn't make sense. Rhaegar was already married.

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Targaryen's historically allowed not only incestuous marriages, but multiple marriages.

Recall Targs are not originally from Westeros... they ruled the Valyrian Freehold which was much of inhabited Essos before coming to conquer Westeros and being "civilized" somewhat. It was only the new gods and sort of a Westeros cultural thing that banned those practices, but Targs routinely ignored them.


That and kind of along the lines of Nixon - if the King (President) does it...it is not illegal. Rhaegar was not king his father was, but Aerys could have decreed anything he wanted to as king.

On the other hand, that likely would've meant an eventual Starks vs. Dany showdown. And who knows what the damn Lannisters would've been up to in those 20 years.

SeattleAgJr said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Still doesn't make sense. Rhaegar was already married.

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There is a theory that R+L were married, and it was certified, allowing for John to be legitimized.
This info is likely registered in Old Town, which is the part Sam has to play.

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Well in the Book I hope it is Howland Reed that finally shows up and admits this, but they probably will do it the above way in the show.

That doesn't even make sense and has 0 textual evidence in the books. Seems like a huge leap for nerds who want the standard fantasy trope to play out.

Note: I am a nerd.

Where in the show or books did they say Tagaryens practiced Polygamy? Multiple concubines or lovers, sure, but multiple WIVES? I don't recall that being a thing. And if it was, you'd think the show would have highlighted that custom if it were to play such an important part.

Sams studies in old town assuredly have little to do with Jons lineage and more to do with combating the WW or their history as they relate to azor ahai.

M.C. Swag said:

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Where in the show or books did they say Tagaryens practiced Polygamy? Multiple concubines or lovers, sure, but multiple WIVES? I don't recall that being a thing. And if it was, you'd think the show would have highlighted that custom.

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companion (canon) material primarily.

Like The World of Ice and Fire: the Reign of the Dragons and The Targaryen Kings.


It was common custom in Valyria for Targs to marry siblings...and occasionally to have multiple wives.

Lord Aenar Targaryen took multiple wives with him when he left Valyria for Dragonstone. So the first Targ king in Westeros had multiple wives.

His descendant, King Aegon I Targaryen, wed both his sisters, Visenya and Rhaenys. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire. Aegon refused offers of a third wife multiple times.

Aegon I's younger son Maegor is the last Targaryen currently known to have had multiple wives. He had been married to Lady Ceryse Hightower in 25 AC. In 39 AC, he married Alys Harroway in a Valyrian ceremony. Ceryse later died and Maegor married his three Black Brides, widowed women of proven fertility, in a single ceremony.

Not long after that, with the death of their dragons, House Targaryen felt they could no longer ignore Westeros custom as it would not be as accepted any more. Thats about 250 years before some of the current characters births.

M.C. Swag said:

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Sams studies in old town assuredly have little to do with Jons lineage and more to do with combating the WW or their history as they relate to azor ahai.

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that is what it is for, but given that Howland Reed is not part of the show, this is the likeliest place for the information to come from - Old Town.

Bran's visions have no weight, but some sort of document in Old Town would.

SeattleAgJr said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Sams studies in old town assuredly have little to do with Jons lineage and more to do with combating the WW or their history as they relate to azor ahai.

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that is what it is for, but given that Howland Reed is not part of the show, this is the likeliest place for the information to come from - Old Town.

Bran's visions have no weight, but some sort of document in Old Town would.

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Bran's visions are for us the viewers, they serve that purpose.

I agree more is needed to make it official though.

But if you just read some decree fans would be left a little flat - I want to see that played out about as much as I wanted to see Tower of Joy scene.

I seriously doubt some secret decree is just kept in the Citadel....it's more likely buried with Lyanna I think.

I agree Sams purpose is likely WW/azor ahai related (and possibly greyscale related too?).

Or hell maybe Sam is the key to everything why not. New guy in the Citadel finds:
- how to kill WWs
- who azor ahai is
- Jons lineage
- the cure for greyscale
- the secret JFK files

In regards to Sam, I thought it was clear in both the books (AFFC) and on the show that Jon sent him to the Citadel to become a Maester and to learn everything he could about the The Others and how to defeat them or how they were defeated the first time. But maybe he just sent him to become a Maester. Regardless, I can't see Jon's lineage being something Sam is going to research. Also, there is a faceless man at the Citadel (from the books), wondering out loud if that will come in to play this season. Doubt it, probably another GRRM rabbit hole.

In regards to who Azhor (sp) truly is, there is are a couple of lines in ADWD that I believe spell it out clearly, it's very subtle and easy to pass over. I am 99% certain Martin placed it there purposely and it's not just a matter of wording. I'd post it but I don't know how to do spoiler tags.

As far as Jon's lineage goes and his claim to the Iron Throne, there is nothing about his character that makes me think he would want the slightest thing to do with it anyway so its kind of pointless. The only reason he even accepted the new King in North title is because he has to unite the North as the first line behind what's left of the Night's Watch.