because the story would suck if they attacked early and everyone was already dead

On Jon: part of the emotion in the story is that the reader knows so much more than the characters. That will absolutely be true of Jon - his origins will never be known. He may become a "savior" but the why of being a true born prince will not be acknowledged.

On Wights: clearly WW can create them - that was established S1E1 and in the very first prologue.

On the wall: Magic of the wall works against magic. If a wight is carried in a wagon - no magic.

On Cercei: I like the idea she's killed in childbirth by a boy. I'm not sure how that's hands around a white neck though.

On NK - he is a pure show invention. He will not have an impact through unique powers. Only WW ones.

I can't disagree with that point. I'm just trying to understand Davos' motivation for wanting to seek out Gendry and have him meet Jon

bobinator said:

---

Then why attack Hardhome in force? If they'd have waited for the water to freeze to attack, they could have killed everyone there and increased their numbers even more instead of a lot of them escaping into the sea.

---

The only reason anyone escaped was bc Jon predicted they would attack Hardhome and showed up with boats to evacuate as many as he could.

On the timing of the army of the dead: I think they're waiting on a time/event that is part of their prophesies. Maybe an event at the start of the next long winter. We know they've just started gathering (Mance and Jon conversations) with the red comet. They're building toward a moment that hasn't yet been identified.

OnlyForNow said:

---

Have to say I disagree with this.

All those skeletons and what not weren't killed by WW/wights; they were just dead.

That's one reason, to me, that it's taking the army a while to get down there. The NK is going around raising the dead all over the north, to strengthen the army. Anything that is still partially put together is being brought back.

Literally I see him as a "lich", he is undead, can raise the dead, and is magic.

Someone remind me of what kind of creatures we saw and the Fist and at Hardhome plus what ever seen up to this point in the books; if anyone can remember...

DON'T post about what we might see if it hasn't already been brought up in the show or book (looking at you script and spoiler readers!!)

---

I think at the Fist of the First Men it was just dead men and dead horses.

From the books the white walkers rode giant spiders during the first war. So maybe there are some ice spiders out there somewhere.

I seem to recall that Deadhands (a book character which is Benjen Stark in the show) rides a dead elk.

But no reanimated dogs or cats or other animals that I'm aware of. Which seems weird. A reanimated direwolf or mammoth could do some damage.

DannyDuberstein said:

---

because the story would suck if they attacked early and everyone was already dead

---

This and it is really that simple. The WW army has taken forever to move on the wall, the actual invasion, because EVERYTHING IN GOT TAKES FOREVER. Until now. It's really that simple. And no, it's not perfect but this is what you get when HBO has to take some 5000+ pages that still require (per GRRM) another 3000 unpublished pages to finish his story and try to do it essentially in 2.5 seasons (6, 7, 8). Remember, this was supposed to be a three book series, then five, then he blew it all out in AFFC and ADWD and essentially stopped writing.

I wouldn't waste to much time worrying about the wight that made it in to Castle Black. Agreed, given what we know now abut the WW's and turning the dead, it doesn't make sense. HBO made a huge point of showing the NK raising the dead and also with him turning the baby to a WW. That seems to tell me they are emphasizing that he does the turning/re-animating. But keep in mind that the wight at CB was written for the very first novel and filmed in the very first season. At that point, i doubt either GRRM or HBO had it all figured out on exactly how this process works. it has never been explained in any of the five books.

On Gendry: clearly last descendent of House Baratheon is his purpose. Either to be the end of the families or a new beginning. I'm guessing he's a POV character in WoW and will be more fully developed as a BWOB member.

I would have assumed that everyone on this dumb wight raid would die except for Jon Snow except for the fact that Gendry and Jorah are there.

It's kind of a Rogue One style mission, but I can't see why we'd have these story arcs for Gendry and Jorah only to have them die in a wightnapping raid beyond the wall the episode after they make their returns. ESPECIALLY Jorah.

Everyone else on this mission is expendable to me, or you could at least set up a scenario where there death has meaning and provides a solid character arc.

PS - I'm not a script reader and have no inside or spoilery knowledge. Just posted about direwolves & mammoths because we have seen both in the show.

Just want to be sure I'm clear on a couple of points so that I don't sound like a show hater or something.

The army of the dead thing for me is mostly fun to talk about and try and come up with theories. It doesn't really lessen my enjoyment of the show any that we're not really sure what they're up to or why they're taking FOREVER to do anything or that they're powers/motives/etc are unclear. (Though I will be annoyed if they simply walk around the wall, because the wall coming down could be one of the best moments of the show.)

The throw away line from Gilly about the annulment and the Jaime/Bronn teleporting downriver thing are bad though. For me those are two black marks on this show's otherwise usually stellar writing.

The Bronn/Jamie thing was really bad. Think of how much more beleiveable that could have been if at the time of the attack, say Jamie was out of his armor cleaning up or something before the final ride back to KL. And then maybe a quick scene of him and Bronn popping up down the river a hundred yards, the battle still raging in the distance, and just letting the current take them, or even faking they are just corpses in the river current. Anything but how they handled it.

I think the Gilly reveal on the annulment was not done very well, but was simply a set up for the big reveal. Sam was purposely distracted and at some point that will come back and tie it all together. Again, not done that well but it is what it is.

The wildlings do burn their dead. I think its an oversight that the Old Gods religion doesnt seem to. It's not surprising though that the rest of the kingdoms that follow the faith of the seven don't. It is a foreign religion that came over a long time after The Long Night.

Quote:

---

On Cercei: I like the idea she's killed in childbirth by a boy. I'm not sure how that's hands around a white neck though.

---

Mother hugging a newborn baby right after childbirth crying uncontrollably as she dies?

Hands around the neck would be hugging, not choking.

No idea, just spitballing.

Then maybe both die during childbirth

SpreadsheetAg said:

---

I know it's a bit out there, but the Bran theory:

About him being the night king. It basically says that Bran TER'd back in time, to affect something, while back in time he warged some dude (though in the scene they never show the guy standing, just his waist up, so it could be future Bran (older) back in time and somehow physically there?). Anyways, TER-Bran is back in the past and gets stuck there and tied to a tree, and converted into the Night King by the children.
1. The more I think about it, the more I think it COULD be possible? And it would be a huge twist.
2. We don't know the motive of the Night King other than (supposedly) there was a truce or a pact - what if the motive is that he is all knowing TER-Bran, and he's been waiting for TER-Bran to be born, and that's what kicks off his drive to go south beyond the wall. Because NK-Bran wants to stop his own creation from ever happening. So all this time he's been amassing this Army to go south of the wall, so that he can kill young-Bran and break the time-loop, setting an alternate reality.

There are some other sub plots to this, if it turns out to be true - the stories from Old Nan about the heroes of the past are not actually stories about heroes of the past. They are stories about what's happening now, that go taken into the past, so that they are self-fulfilling. e.g. The PTWP, literally, is_was Jon Snow and always has only been Jon Snow. The same for the Last Hero - could be young-Bran with his band searching for the Three-Eyed Raven and Children of the Forest, and only he (and Meera Reed) survived?

Check out this clip. I went back to look at the creation of the Night King. He and Bran are in the exact same position. After the COTF shove the Dragonglass into his chest, and the newly minted Night King's eyes turn blue, the screen switches to young-Bran who says, "It was you. You made the white walkers..." to which Leaf says "We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves.". Bran says, "From whom?" Leaf replies, "From you ...... From men." (Literally from you? Bran?)

---

I've seen this theory and, while cool, I have trouble believing something this convoluted would make it into the show. I think we got all the NK backstory we're going to see last season.

Agreed. He's a bad guy. No need to over-over-over-complicate it.

AstroAg17 said:

---

If men fought the WW before, how on earth did they not start a tradition of burning the dead after the first time?

---

Probably just a lost tradition after hundreds of years

I really hope that is the case.

The only real question for me, because we haven't really seen the extent of Arya's (or any of the faceless men) power here is she can only take on faces of people about her size or does her body actually change.

Put another way, can she impersonate Littlefinger? That's the only real question I have about where this plot is going.