***Official GAME OF THRONES Season 6 (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***

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M.C. Swag
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quote:
You'd have to be pretty insane, or have an army of your own, to challenge Cercei at this point. She just killed half of the nobility including the Queen, High Septon, and eliminated all heirs to a major house. How the heck would you even challenge her right to the throne....?
There are still knights, no? The Kingsguard are still noblemen. They just watched Cersei destroy their King, Queen, and brothers who protected them.

Like Jamie and the Mad King, any of the Kingsguard should have been more willing to arrest/kill Cersei than swear fealty to her.

Idk, that's my stance.
redline248
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Like brushing over Jon's dying and coming back to life, it's probably one of those things the show didn't doesn't feel the need to explain.

The "mob" isn't going to do anything, if you mean the common people. The kingsguard has been pushed so far down the totem pole of important players that I just don't see what they would do, especially with Frankengregor there to oppose them. What about the gold cloaks? Show basically forgot about them, but I bet they wouldn't oppose Cersei, they've been doing her dirty work for years, even through the power struggle with Tyrion.
BowSowy
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I think they overlooked this aspect and were a little too hasty in putting that crown on Cersei's head.
This I can agree with. They could've left the crowning for next season and given more air time to what happened. Then again, that would lead to 10 months of crazy theories about lineage and who is the rightful heir so maybe it's best they didn't.
ChipFTAC01
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quote:
quote:
Sorry, I forgot that Roman history was a prerequisite for GoT fictious wildfire explosions
lol....but come on. it's a big fire.....even Bonfire smoldered for days, usually until the weekend sometime. Unless it rained a lot.






Bonfire smoldered for weeks.
M.C. Swag
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quote:
Like brushing over Jon's dying and coming back to life, it's probably one of those things the show didn't doesn't feel the need to explain.
Same deal. I wish they would have expounded on that. At least with Sansa. Felt weird that NO ONE even acknowledged it.
quote:
The "mob" isn't going to do anything, if you mean the common people.
I don't even mean a 'mob' in the political sense. I mean just a terrified group of people in a city that just experienced a cataclysmic explosion. Who's in charge? Are we under attack? Are more explosions on the way?

The Sept going up in flames should have caused a MASSIVE city panic.

And then even IF that somehow gets settled down, you have to go to explaining why even a single Kingsguard, gold cloak, or peasant would take orders from Cersei. If all it took was a single Franken-Mountain to hold the right of the Throne then I have no idea how Jon Snow ain't polishing Longclaw at Kings Landing right now with Wun Wun at his side. (But that's where Jamie's army comes in)

Btw, did Cersei even know Jamie was on his way back? That's awfully convenient if not.

smokeythebear
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As a show watcher, I think it is weird that you want all of this spoon-fed to you. Ramsey did the same thing in Winterfell, he killed his dad and suddenly everyone rallies around him? Heck, Baelish was RIGHT THERE when Robyn's mother "jumped" and suddenly they are best friends? Jon spent not even a full year as a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, isn't even a Ranger, gets captured, joins the Wildling army, and when he get's back to Castle Black, they elect him Lord Commander? What about Ellaria just up and murdering Doran in front of a bunch of guards and yet everyone is perfectly fine with it?

Perhaps your frustration stems from not having the books to walk you through each step of the process. I could see where you would want the book to explain exactly which people in the King's Guard didn't agree with the coronation or who's family tried to take control from Cerci and was murdered, but in the show, there's just not enough time to fill in all those little gaps. You're right, it IS poor writing, because GRRM hasn't written the damn books that y'all need to fill in all the gaps. But for us show watchers, we've been filling in the gaps since day 1 so it's nothing new to us. The show doesn't work if it doesn't move quickly. There's just not enough time for these side conversations y'all want to explain away any inconsistency with your perceived motivations of the characters.
redline248
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I doubt she knew, unless Jaime sent a raven from either the Twins or Riverrun.

I'm just saying, the kingsguard and city guard have already been taking orders from her for a long time. Very few soldiers, even in real history, questioned or rebelled against crazy or evil leaders.
smokeythebear
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Yea, like Redline says, in a catastrophic panic like that, the people are looking for a leader and, by golly, the only person alive is someone they've been used to seeing in power for decades. Cerci has been Queen or Mother Queen for, what, 30 something years? It's not hard to see why they would listen to her.

Nobody gives a **** about her being an evil person or a bad person. Aerys was evil, Joffrey was evil, Robert was bad at his job, and so was Tommen. Many commonfolk probably see her as the most competent leader they have had in decades.
M.C. Swag
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quote:
As a show watcher, I think it is weird that you want all of this spoon-fed to you. Ramsey did the same thing in Winterfell, he killed his dad and suddenly everyone rallies around him? Heck, Baelish was RIGHT THERE when Robyn's mother "jumped" and suddenly they are best friends? Jon spent not even a full year as a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, isn't even a Ranger, gets captured, joins the Wildling army, and when he get's back to Castle Black, they elect him Lord Commander? What about Ellaria just up and murdering Doran in front of a bunch of guards and yet everyone is perfectly fine with it?

Perhaps your frustration stems from not having the books to walk you through each step of the process. I could see where you would want the book to explain exactly which people in the King's Guard didn't agree with the coronation or who's family tried to take control from Cerci and was murdered, but in the show, there's just not enough time to fill in all those little gaps. You're right, it IS poor writing, because GRRM hasn't written the damn books that y'all need to fill in all the gaps. But for us show watchers, we've been filling in the gaps since day 1 so it's nothing new to us. The show doesn't work if it doesn't move quickly. There's just not enough time for these side conversations y'all want to explain away any inconsistency with your perceived motivations of the characters.
I'm not frustrated at all and I'm not asking anything to be spoon fed to me. I raised a legit point. A singular criticism of an episode I have repeatedly said was superb. I've also stated as clearly as possible that these explanations seem like some of y'alls over-sensitivity to anything other than glowing review of the show. What you think is an intended omission by the writers, I think is instead an oversight. That's it. And I've tried to explain that.

(Btw, why don't you go look at some of my prior posts to those who complained incessantly about LF's sudden appearance at the Wall or Vary's re-appearance by Dany's side. Go ahead. I think you'll see that you're talking to someone who knows what is, and isn't a necessary plot omission.)

PS - Ramsay maintaining control of a single castle, vs Cersei maintaining control over a capital city are a little different.
smokeythebear
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My apologies, I probably came off a bit too rash.

I guess my point is more this: for show watchers, we've been doing this for 6 years. The show has ALWAYS moved too fast to explain everything (a big reason I eventually found myself here, trying to learn more of the back story). This is just the first season that book readers are experiencing this phenomenon.
JAggie2007
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There isn't a 24 hour news network in Planetos that would explain all the details about the Sept explosion and who was or wasn't there. For Pycelle they don't have to show that he has 50 stab wounds, if they just produce his body they can make him a scapegoat. Cersei could explain her absence just about any way and the dumb uneducated masses of Kings Landing would either believe it, or just accept it out of fear.

Most people that could connect the dots about Cersei and the bombing are probably dead already or aligned with Daenerys. Note Cersei also ordered to have Tommen's body burned so I could easily see her saying he died in the Sept with everyone else. Maybe some of this will be explained, maybe it won't, the episode was already 68 minutes, showing absolutely everything would have made it even longer.
M.C. Swag
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quote:
My apologies, I probably came off a bit too rash.

I guess my point is more this: for show watchers, we've been doing this for 6 years. The show has ALWAYS moved too fast to explain everything (a big reason I eventually found myself here, trying to learn more of the back story). This is just the first season that book readers are experiencing this phenomenon.
Im just pissed we didn't get Cleganebowl and they removed Margery and her amazing rack. I was hoping at least for a good-bye send off.
smokeythebear
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So to the topic of the fire smoldering for weeks, did anyone else picture Qyburn taking Tommen's ashes to the edge of the still smoldering rubble, kinda look around to see if anyone was watching, and then just toss the urn into the rubble? Just one of those two second Family Guy type moments where you see someone literally doing as asked, even though it is kinda awkward or absurd to actually do.
OnlyForNow
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The King killed himself, that's on him.

The queen being murdered, doesn't really matter as the murder is the new ruler.
26.2
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does anybody have a link to that chrome app that allows you to ignore users?
Javelina
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https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/texags-user-tools/jacahejefocaemahjcdinkkdgogmhdbh?hl=en-US
26.2
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that's so nice. thanks.
PatAg
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We saw wildfyre literally burning on and in water during the Blackwater battle. This is an explosion on land, with even more barrels. There, no Roman history needed.
BigAggie06
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I think we can assume that the majority of the nobility in KL was at the sept to spectate the trial so it's likely there is no nobility left to challenge her outside the Knights of the Kingsguard. This isn't revolutionary France, the peasants aren't going to rise up immediately to deny Cersi the throne. I doubt that who the king or queen is to the matters overly much really. All they know is that some rich person with control of an army and the Kingsguard is on the throne.
The fact that you think we all should make that presumption is a pretty big indicator of poor writing/depiction from the show writers. We are never shown or told what aristocracy exists in KL and how many of them would be in attendance for the trials. Or at the very least, its a gross convenience for the plot. (Like I said, it was my only quibble. Cersei's coronation should have been somewhat challenged. If for no other reason that she was clearly responsible for the explosion.)
I guess it just doesn't seem that egregious to me ...

1) We have never been shown a huge "court" of important nobles who would be able to challenge for the throne ... yeah we often see a packed throne room but it never gives the hit of political intrigue. The biggest "players" in Kings Landing are shown in both the books and in the show to be on the small council and that is regardless of blood (Varys, Little Finger, Pycelle are all shown to have some measure of power/influence without blood)

2) The 7 kingdoms are fairly far flung with KL being fairly equal distance between The Eyrie, Riverrun, and Storms End and significantly farther from Casterly Rock, Highgarden, Sunspear, and Winterfell. Whatever power is left in the 7 kingdoms is either too far away or under Lannister control.

Yeah we know that there are other minor houses out there but they are tending to their own lands like Tarly and the Frey's (before the Frey Pies). The houses of the Vale are with LF and Robyn, the houses of the Riverlands and Westerlands are under the Lannister thumbs. In the Stormlands no one has enough power to claim the throne. The Reach is basically one old lady who is in Dorne making an alliance. It is completely reasonable that EVEN as unliked as Cersi is, she would be accepted as Queen due to her familiarity and the perception of power.

I mean ... would it be MORE believable if some random minor lording were to challenge Cersi's ascension in Kings Landing? or if house Tarly or house Tarth were to just show up and lay claim? Maybe they could have worked in a peasant revolt but that would be outside the norm too, we have seen the citizenry get rowdy when food was scarce but since the Reach has been allied with KL and the Riverlands are now brought to heel there shouldn't be any food shortages ... other than that there has been no hint of unrest or potential uprising in KL to hint at a mob takeover.

I guess I am just not seeing who would challenge her .. you can argue it is poor writing to not show any other nobles powerful enough to challenge in the city, but I don't see it that way. That is the culture of Westeros that has been built up, the houses usually keep to their own lands, so it makes sense that the only major nobles in KL at the time were Lannisters and Tyrell's
PatAg
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The last kingsguard that did the honorable/sensible thing, as you are saying, was branded a Kingslayer and looked down upon by the rest of the realm.
PatAg
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I also feel like we are just showing her crowning herself queen. That doesn't mean any of the other Houses and Lords of the land are going to submit to her. She just has a new outfit and a fancy hat now.
AggieSouth06
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Almost 9,000,000 people watched the first run of the episode. I assume at least 5x that saw it on DVR or HBOGO.

Probably 5,000 people spend the next 6 months hyper-analyzing every action and consequence and considering the reaction of every lord of every minor house and mapping out how the fire would have affected raven flight patterns over the Reach...

Sorry, they don't cater to you. Taut pacing and story beats are more important than fan service.
The Dog Lord
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quote:
My original complaint was 2 part:
1) Cersei has no allies in Kings Landing, and if fact, she is despised by practically everyone.
2) Cersei carried out a deadly and atrocious attack on KLs most important political and religious leaders.

Combined, she should be public enemy #1. Common folks and Aristocrats alike should be calling for her head.

I found it hard to swallow that they would so quickly bend their knees to her.

Now, ZJS did raise the point about Jamie's arrival. He does have an army in tow and would easily be able to secure KL and protect Cersei from the mob.

My point: That's a fairly big ask for us to assume happened. We are never shown how the people of KL react to the Sept explosion. We are never shown whether it caused widespread panic or discord. And thus, we are never shown Jamie, nor his army, reinstating any semblance of order.

Now, maybe all that happened off-screen and they intentionally left those dots to be connected by the viewer. At best, I think that's poor writing. Especially when we are all dealing with the inconsistent timeline aspect. We have no clue how much time has passed between certain pivotal moments, and thus we are forced to make our own conclusions.

I understand what ZJS and others are saying, but I disagree. I think the writers dropped the ball on this one. I think they overlooked this aspect and were a little too hasty in putting that crown on Cersei's head. And thus, my criticism.

Either way, I'm cool if y'all want to disagree. There were some good points raised and ultimately, I think the show is more compelling with Cersei on the throne than off it. So while I thought the journey could have been a little less clunky, I'm all aboard the destination.


I think we likely see the "uprising" next season. She was already prepared to seize power in the chaos. She does have some soldiers/support including the freaking Mountain which scares everyone. People will probably be plotting against her in the next season. They just didn't react quickly enough or didn't know what to do in the interim. It's not likely going to be enough to say "not Cersei." They need a viable alternative. With so many people dead, it isn't clear who to support. They could likely find one if needed, but one just showed up in Dorne.
M.C. Swag
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I've got it PatAg. Thanks for your input.
M.C. Swag
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Sorry, they don't cater to you. Taut pacing and story beats are more important than fan service.
lol Wasn't asking to be catered to, wasn't asking for fan service. You're overreacting and completely missed my point.
M.C. Swag
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Nice write-up. We just disagree. I still thought the episode was fantastic and ultimately a more compelling story can be told in the future with Cersei on the throne.
BigAggie06
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The last kingsguard that did the honorable/sensible thing, as you are saying, was branded a Kingslayer and looked down upon by the rest of the realm.
Also ... the current Kingsguard aren't really known for being the best knights in the land. After Selmy left they have gone down hill. So much so that in the show they have basically become nameless faces but I will try to do some break down here. We see 5 KG with Tommen on the steps to the Sept when he confronts the High Sparrow in season 5. It is obvious that one of them is not the Mountain Zombie. So we have 6 KG.

- Ser Boro Blount known as Boros the Belly described as an "ugly man with a foul temper" by Sansa and a "craven" who was "never more than ordinary" by Jamie. Also has never shown anything but loyalty to Cersi.

- Ser Preston Greenfield (dead in the books but alive in show) - He was the KG with Robert when he died I think that says all we need to say about his loyalties ... in the show he appears at Joffrey's wedding in season 4 but he dies and is replaced by Balon Swann in the books.

- Ser Balon Swann - Not clear if he is a member of the KG in showverse or not ... if so he would be the most likely candidate to be the "knight in shining armor" to oppose Cersi. In the books is headed to Dorne at the moment.

- Ser Arys Oakheart - Another one that is dead in the books but appears to have escaped that fate by returning from Dorne instead of staying. Could potentially stand up to Cersi but nothing to really support that either ... has been a KG since the beginning ... no reason to doubt his loyalty.

- Ser Osmund Kettleback - Raised to Kingsguard by Cersi, sellsword

- Zombie Clegane - Mindless puppet of Cersi

Outside of Swann and maybe Oakheart none of those guys are going to raise a hand to Cersi and in the books those guys aren't in KL both are in Dorne, and one is dead.
SgtBarbarossa
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So I was thinking that if Jon is a Targaryen I assume they find a midwife or Howland Reed as an eye witness, but what would they use as concrete evidence to remove all doubt? Will that be when he pulls a burning sword from fire to prove he's a Targaryen (and the prince who was promised)? I know it was brought up several pages ago, but it will be a pretty awesome moment in the show when they show the impact of Jon being a Stark/Targ.

When Jon first saves Lord Commander Mormont from a White Walker he gets burned and for the rest of the season he looks at his bandaged hand oddly, like something's not right. As soon as I heard about R+L=J I figured he was wondering why he wasn't burned and never touched on it because he was preoccupied. Then again, why bandange it? That might be my imagination, but it seems like they made a point of it.

Pulling the flaming sword in front of Daenerys would be a hell of a way to form an alliance to fight the Walkers as well as make her sploosh in the process. Or surviving dragon-fire... I know that all Targaryens aren't fire-proof, but in the show it seems that all of the "worthy" ones are. Then we all know what happens... he ****s his aunt.
BigAggie06
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quote:
I also feel like we are just showing her crowning herself queen. That doesn't mean any of the other Houses and Lords of the land are going to submit to her. She just has a new outfit and a fancy hat now.
Oh most definitely not ... She may not even be acknowledged as Queen by her own house but as far as the city goes there is no likely scenario where she is opposed immediately.
SeattleAgJr
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http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic
redline248
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quote:
So I was thinking that if Jon is a Targaryen I assume they find a midwife or Howland Reed as an eye witness, but what would they use as concrete evidence to remove all doubt? Will that be when he pulls a burning sword from fire to prove he's a Targaryen (and the prince who was promised)? I know it was brought up several pages ago, but it will be a pretty awesome moment in the show when they show the impact of Jon being a Stark/Targ.

When Jon first saves Lord Commander Mormont from a White Walker he gets burned and for the rest of the season he looks at his bandaged hand oddly, like something's not right. As soon as I heard about R+L=J I figured he was wondering why he wasn't burned and never touched on it because he was preoccupied. Then again, why bandange it? That might be my imagination, but it seems like they made a point of it.

Pulling the flaming sword in front of Daenerys would be a hell of a way to form an alliance to fight the Walkers as well as make her sploosh in the process. Or surviving dragon-fire... I know that all Targaryens aren't fire-proof, but in the show it seems that all of the "worthy" ones are. Then we all know what happens... he ****s his aunt.
Jon is not immune to fire. He did burn his hands.

As to the flaming sword, I'm not sure it will prove anything to Dany. The prince that was promised is an old prophesy that does not automatically mean anything to or about Targaryens.
emando2000
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AG
Was it discussed why everyone is now wearing Black?
Daenerys on the ship (formerly blue/white)
Cercei - prior to terrorist attack & as she sits on the throne (formerly red/gold)
Olenna - while meeting with the Ellaria (formerly blue)
Ellaria - Meeting with Olenna (formerly red or tan)
Sansa - don't exactly remember when she changed but everyone is in black.
smokeythebear
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I know there isn't any kind of precedent for this, but it would be awesome if Jon was immune to ice instead of being immune to fire. Dany has her dragons and, thus, is immune to fire. Jon has his WWs and, thus, is immune to ice.

Haha, I guess maybe Benjen has already claimed that super power?
redline248
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Was it discussed why everyone is now wearing Black?
Daenerys on the ship (formerly blue/white)
Cercei - prior to terrorist attack & as she sits on the throne (formerly red/gold)
Olenna - while meeting with the Ellaria (formerly blue)
Ellaria - Meeting with Olenna (formerly red or tan)
Sansa - don't exactly remember when she changed but everyone is in black.
Dany - one of the main colors of Targaryens, and she's off to war
Cercei - maybe she was getting ready to mourn the loss of so many lives, appropriate when mourning the death of her son
Olenna - also mourning the death of her family
Ellaria - who cares, she sucks
Sansa - one of her knew cloaks or something has the Stark blue in it, but maybe the only animals they could find for new overcoats had black fur

edit: I might be wrong about the blue, maybe it's supposed to be gray
Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
Was it discussed why everyone is now wearing Black?
Daenerys on the ship (formerly blue/white)
Cercei - prior to terrorist attack & as she sits on the throne (formerly red/gold)
Olenna - while meeting with the Ellaria (formerly blue)
Ellaria - Meeting with Olenna (formerly red or tan)
Sansa - don't exactly remember when she changed but everyone is in black.
Black is in come on....did you miss Westerosi Fashion Week???? And Black is slimming you know.


Seriously though I think it was a very intentional ominous tone being set.

Olenna and Cersei could be mourning of course.
Dany could be for war - send a statement on arrival
Sansa - could be just fitting into the somber Jon Snow theme
Ellaria - not sure it was black? maybe dark b lue?

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