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Jon had to charge. The next volley of arrows was coming to his exact position. No choice at that point.

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There's always reverse too, get out of range and regroup

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No. Slow retreat gets you shot. Fast retreat is called a "rout," and it gets you ridden-down by cavalry.

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Pretending to rout in order to goad Ramsay into charging was actually the original plan, if you'll recall. Jon should have turned tail and ridden back to his lines instead of charging.

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Hank......I appreciate that you're a few days late watching the ep, but you're hammering out responses to questions and thoughts that have already been answered (some multiple times) and hashed and rehashed.

Go easy on the comments to posts that are 15+ pages back.

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Tell you what. Next time I will make handwritten notes as to which posts I want to respond to, then I will read the entire thread. Only when I have read fifteen pages will I take my notes and go back to reply to the posts that still need replies.

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Why not? I just did.

So with Tommen taking a header out of the tower, Kevan Lannister and Lancel Faith Militant (nee' Lannister) blown up does that put Lannister on the house extinction list?

It's not really touched on in the show apart from the young Lannister captives being killed by Lord Karstark but in the books King Robb kills a whole bunch of Lannisters when he decamps from Riverrun to take Casterly Rock.

That effectively leaves Cersei and Jaime.

And we know Cersei isn't long for this world. Will Jaime live to knock up Brienne or will he kill himself after he potentially offs Cersei or might he die in a battle with Tormund over Brienne?

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So what's everyone's bet on Jon's actual name?

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Baby McBabyface

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Slagathor. Slaggie, for short.

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So with Tommen taking a header out of the tower, Kevan Lannister and Lancel Faith Militant (nee' Lannister) blown up does that put Lannister on the house extinction list?

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In the show it does..in the books there are plenty of other Lannisters (and Tyrells) running about

Someone on the show is holding Casterly Rock... I've got to imagine there are still a ton of cousins.

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Someone on the show is holding Casterly Rock... I've got to imagine there are still a ton of cousins.

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Possibly...but the cost of casting any of them makes extinction more likely

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Someone on the show is holding Casterly Rock... I've got to imagine there are still a ton of cousins.

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Possibly...but the cost of casting any of them makes extinction more likely

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Cost has never been a problem for the show, just ask the direw... Never mind

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Jon had to charge. The next volley of arrows was coming to his exact position. No choice at that point.

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There's always reverse too, get out of range and regroup

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No. Slow retreat gets you shot. Fast retreat is called a "rout," and it gets you ridden-down by cavalry.

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Pretending to rout in order to goad Ramsay into charging was actually the original plan, if you'll recall. Jon should have turned tail and ridden back to his lines instead of charging.

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I'm confused by the person you quoted. How is Jon turning around and going back to his forces a "rout" and how exactly would he be run down by cavalry before reaching his own cavalry? I understand the concept that Jon was trying to run out from under the volley of arrows, and his easiest path was forwards instead of trying to turn around, but assuming he could turn and go to the side or wait for the first volley to fall and then turn around, I would think he could get back to his cavalry in time. Instead, his cavalry had to advance to try and save him, putting them in range of Ramsey's archers. But yea, I agree with you that the original plan was to force Ramsey to attack them, not the other way around.

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Prediction for season 7:

Euron Greyjoy brokers a deal with Cerci. Almost the same deal Yara made with Dany.

Euron arrives in Meeren to find Dany gone, but enlists Daario and the Second Sons (Love's betrayal).

Hound and the Bw/oB head north to the great war to come at Mel's urging.

Arya does not head North. She has 4 people on her list in the same place. She heads to KL. (not sure on this one though, because she bypassed KL to head North to assassinate the Frey).

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1. Cerci is NOT about to marry again. She's done with all of that bull****.

2. Euron/Daario - Maybe, but I doubt it, I think Meeren storyline is largely abandoned at this point.

3. Probably right, but I'll be interested to see what Mel does since she can't go back north. Maybe she takes off the necklace so as not to be recognized?

4. I don't think Arya really went AROUND KL as much as she just went straight to the Twins. I duno, a map may prove otherwise, but I thought KL was significantly further south and out of Arya's path to the Twins. Other than that though, I agree she could go to KL, but there's only 2 (maybe Illyn Payne too?) in KL. There's three names on her list headed north (according to your prediction #3).

Good stuff though!

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1. Cerci is NOT about to marry again. She's done with all of that bull****.

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I dunno about that. If Jamie confronts her & they are truly done, I could see her with Euron for a few reasons:
1. To spite Jamie.
2. To produce an heir (possibly)
3. She will need his ships and troops.
4. She's always been kind of a s&*t (moreso in the books).
5. Convenience.

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Prediction for season 7:

Euron Greyjoy brokers a deal with Cerci. Almost the same deal Yara made with Dany.

Euron arrives in Meeren to find Dany gone, but enlists Daario and the Second Sons (Love's betrayal).

Hound and the Bw/oB head north to the great war to come at Mel's urging.

Arya does not head North. She has 4 people on her list in the same place. She heads to KL. (not sure on this one though, because she bypassed KL to head North to assassinate the Frey).

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1. Cerci is NOT about to marry again. She's done with all of that bull****.

2. Euron/Daario - Maybe, but I doubt it, I think Meeren storyline is largely abandoned at this point.

3. Probably right, but I'll be interested to see what Mel does since she can't go back north. Maybe she takes off the necklace so as not to be recognized?

4. I don't think Arya really went AROUND KL as much as she just went straight to the Twins. I duno, a map may prove otherwise, but I thought KL was significantly further south and out of Arya's path to the Twins. Other than that though, I agree she could go to KL, but there's only 2 (maybe Illyn Payne too?) in KL. There's three names on her list headed north (according to your prediction #3).

Good stuff though!

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4. yes the closest to Braavos would be the Vale and/or going around it by rivers or the bay to Riverlands and The Neck further north. She didn't bypass KL. Remember she set sail from around the Vale anyway when she left The Hound to sail to Braavos.

Why would Cersei make the same deal - what does she need ships for? Or you just mean for the iron islands to be left autonomous under euron. Maybe. But again what does she need from them? Men maybe but they are historically unpredictable.

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Prediction for season 7:

Euron Greyjoy brokers a deal with Cerci. Almost the same deal Yara made with Dany.

Euron arrives in Meeren to find Dany gone, but enlists Daario and the Second Sons (Love's betrayal).

Hound and the Bw/oB head north to the great war to come at Mel's urging.

Arya does not head North. She has 4 people on her list in the same place. She heads to KL. (not sure on this one though, because she bypassed KL to head North to assassinate the Frey).

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1. Cerci is NOT about to marry again. She's done with all of that bull****.

2. Euron/Daario - Maybe, but I doubt it, I think Meeren storyline is largely abandoned at this point.

3. Probably right, but I'll be interested to see what Mel does since she can't go back north. Maybe she takes off the necklace so as not to be recognized?

4. I don't think Arya really went AROUND KL as much as she just went straight to the Twins. I duno, a map may prove otherwise, but I thought KL was significantly further south and out of Arya's path to the Twins. Other than that though, I agree she could go to KL, but there's only 2 (maybe Illyn Payne too?) in KL. There's three names on her list headed north (according to your prediction #3).

Good stuff though!

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1. A Kingdom, not marriage.

2. Probably right, but leaving Daario seems like a loose end and there is the Love's Betrayal thing.

3. I think she does go back North and happily pays the price asked by her God to bring forces for the coming war. She did state she has been ready to die for a long time.

4. I was counting Cerci, Jamie, Payne and the Mountain. Don't remember the list, so I'm not sure Jamie is on it. She probably doesn't know the Hound is alive, but might forgive that one in the end. You have a point. The Bw/oB is closer than KL. I still think KL, because they want to save the Stark reunion until the final season.

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1. Cerci is NOT about to marry again. She's done with all of that bull****.

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I dunno about that. If Jamie confronts her & they are truly done, I could see her with Euron for a few reasons:
1. To spite Jamie.
2. To produce an heir (possibly)
3. She will need his ships and troops.
4. She's always been kind of a s&*t (moreso in the books).
5. Convenience.

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Cersei will broker a deal with Euron for ships. Either marriage or whatever, she needs allies and she has to know it. The North and the Targaryen army are against her now. Euron is one of the only with a large force that can impede Dany in the sea while the Lannister forces focus on the North.

Euron dealing with Cersei, who is queen now, is equal to, if not better than, his idea to deal with Dany.

I foresee Euron failing (Obviously), but he does just enough damage to force Dany to reconsider her original plans, forcing her to go North and team up with Jon, take out the Lannisters and then return North to destroy the White Walker threat.

Endgame is Jon runs the North, Dany the South.

Is the love's betrayal mentioned in the show?

It will be interesting to see how much of a threat they will make Cersei versus focusing on the coming threat in the North from the White Walkers.

If they decide to make Cersei a credible threat, then seems potential marriages might be: Euron Greyjoy, Robyn Arryn (brokered by Littlefinger), or maybe Littlefinger himself?

Any other potential suitors?

Looking at that, Euron really does seems to be the only credible possibility.

Maybe some mercenaries?

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It will be interesting to see how much of a threat they will make Cersei versus focusing on the coming threat in the North from the White Walkers.

If they decide to make Cersei a credible threat, then seems potential marriages might be: Euron Greyjoy, Robyn Arryn (brokered by Littlefinger), or maybe Littlefinger himself?

Any other potential suitors?

Looking at that, Euron really does seems to be the only credible possibility.

Maybe some mercenaries?

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Never considered Little Finger, but that's a good idea. If his end game is the Iron Throne (Seriously, too many people with ****in aspirations for that *********chair) then through a widowed Cersei is the way to go... For now.

My best bet is that the Lannister have one of the last, greatest Standing army in Westeros, not to mention whatever houses remain loyal to the crown regardless of the person in it.

It was just announced there are only 13-15 episodes left in the series.
The breakneck pace that has been set this season will only get faster.

I hope Westworld turns out to be as good as I hope. Gonna need a new show soon.

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Is the love's betrayal mentioned in the show?

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I think so, but I think it was that masked woman, Quaithe, who told Dany instead of the whispers in the House of the Undying. I was looking for a clip on youtube, but haven't found it yet.

I went to the wiki of ice and fire and looked at the betrayal stuff again:

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Upon finally reaching the chamber of the Undying, Dany hears whispers hailing her as "Mother of Dragons" and prophesying that she will light three fires, ride three mounts, and face three betrayals.

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Light 3 fires: Drogo and Maz to hatch the eggs, the Khals to take over the Dothraki (good guess this happens in the books too?), and a 3rd fire to come

Ride 3 mounts: Drogon, her silver horse, and ??? (does Khal Drogo count, ha!)

3 betrayals: one for blood - Maz tricking her into using dark magic to keep Drogo alive, one for gold - Jorah spying on her, and one for love - Daario looks like the smart bet

edit: I suppose the 3 mounts could be talking about lovers, of which she's had 2. Drogo and Daario.

Man, I duno. I just DO NOT THINK that Cerci would ever marry again. She was forced to marry Robert and she HATED him. She was then promised to Loras and she turned him in to the HS to avoid having to marry him, even though it would have been immensely helpful to her political career to do so.

I just think she knows the prophecy is almost fulfilled. She's DONE having kids, she's DONE making alliances, she's DONE playing those stupid political games. She just killed everyone and is planning to sit on the throne for as long as it takes for someone to come peel it from her cold dead hands. That look she game Jaime, the only person left in the world that she could possibly have any love for, was one of disdain and "I don't give a **** what you think about me anymore".

I think if Euron came into town to talk about getting married and pledging his ships, she would say something like "I am already the queen. I can order Sir Strong to kill you right now for treason and take your ships for myself. Actually, tell me again why I should keep you alive?"

I completely agree with smokey. Cersei ain't getting married again, with the very, very small outside shot she decides to say F it and marry Jaime. Which I doubt.

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Is the love's betrayal mentioned in the show?

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I think so, but I think it was that masked woman, Quaithe, who told Dany instead of the whispers in the House of the Undying. I was looking for a clip on youtube, but haven't found it yet.

I went to the wiki of ice and fire and looked at the betrayal stuff again:

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Upon finally reaching the chamber of the Undying, Dany hears whispers hailing her as "Mother of Dragons" and prophesying that she will light three fires, ride three mounts, and face three betrayals.

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Light 3 fires: Drogo and Maz to hatch the eggs, the Khals to take over the Dothraki (good guess this happens in the books too?), and a 3rd fire to come

Ride 3 mounts: Drogon, her silver horse, and ??? (does Khal Drogo count, ha!)

3 betrayals: one for blood - Maz tricking her into using dark magic to keep Drogo alive, one for gold - Jorah spying on her, and one for love - Daario looks like the smart bet

edit: I suppose the 3 mounts could be talking about lovers, of which she's had 2. Drogo and Daario.

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ummmm 3 mounts = 3 dragons.

maybe she rides them all at some point. not out of the question.

3 fires
1. to hatch the eggs
2. to kill the khals
3. the ships in slavers bay

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Baller Staf is right. They made Loras a pansy ass in the show just for social commentary reasons. He is way more of a badass in the books.

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I need to re-read the books. I'm not saying that Loras was a pansy in the books but he definitely was not some badass. He was an astounding swordsman but vain

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Loras is definitely a badass in the books.

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He would give half his teeth for the chance to try his axe against the Kingslayer or the Knight of Flowers. That was the sort of battle that he understood. AFFC 30

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Even Victarion, a guy who is so badass he fights sea battles in heavy plate and a greataxe, wishes that he had a chance to go against some of the best fighters of the main land, such as the Kingslayer or Knight of Flowers.

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You've only provided evidence he's a great swordsman ... That doesn't make him a badass. And he was a great swordsman in the show too so that's no different.

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ummmm 3 mounts = 3 dragons.

maybe she rides them all at some point. not out of the question.

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Maybe, that seems too simple, though. If that ends up being the case, she won't need 2 more dragon riders like many expect, imo.

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ummmm 3 mounts = 3 dragons.

maybe she rides them all at some point. not out of the question.

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Maybe, that seems too simple, though. If that ends up being the case, she won't need 2 more dragon riders like many expect, imo.

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and that's only fan speculation. she may be the only one. who knows.

even if there are 3 though eventually....currently she is the only one. she may ride them before we get 2 others.

Show only guy chiming in. In my opinion, which is un-biased by book Loras, he was a really good tournament fighter. He practiced a whole lot and went and won a whole bunch of tournaments, but he wasn't ever championed as a REAL fighter in terms of life or death battle. He was really good, but when he beats the Mountain on the joust, the Mountain gets mad and starts swinging at him. Faced with a real fight, he basically lives up to the name Knight of the Flowers and looks like a big poosay. Granted, there's only about 3 people in the realm who would stand a chance against an angry Mountain in hand-to-hand combat, but still, not a good showing.

Other than that, his reputation is pretty good, but there are just too many "good" sword fighters in the show to consider Loras the cream of the crop (Mountain, Hound, Jaime, Ned, Bron, Brienne, etc.). Many of those don't do tournaments anymore so that's why Loras was so good at winning tournaments.

This infographic from Making Game of Thrones (HBO) confirms Rhaegar was Jon's father.

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Game of Thrones relationships are complicated as this diagram proves. Spoilers ahead.
"The Winds of Winter" finally took us inside the Tower of Joy. Here's a brief recap of what brought Ned there:

The only daughter of Rickard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Lyanna Stark was engaged to marry Robert Baratheon. According to Littlefinger, eyebrows were raised at a tourney hosted at Harrenhal when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen rode past his own wife, Princess Elia Martel, and presented his winner's crown of winter roses to Lyanna instead.

Sometime after, news spread that Rhaegar had abducted Lyanna. When her brother Ned made his way to Dorne and found the Tower of Joy, he discovered his sister, Lyanna, drenched in blood and sweat on a bed. "Promise me, Ned," she whispered as a brown-eyed newborn was placed into her brother's arms.

To see how they key players related to each other at that moment in GoT history, check out the infographic below.

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