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Poor Summer, poor Hodor

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Be of good cheer! They're both coming back!

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Wouldn't it be awesome if at some point if all the dire wolves are brought back from the dead?

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Not quite as awesome as if G Martin 87 is really GRRM.

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Seriously, if this was revealed to be truth, my mind would be blown so hard that I'd possibly never recover, and repeat the same word over and over for the rest of my life.

I mean, is it THAT implausible? He does have stuff at the A&M Library.

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It's not that implausible.

G Martin 87, go finish your breakfast of sausage and applecakes, and that double helping of fried eggs cooked up with onions and fiery Dornish peppers, hot bread, butter and honey and blackberry preserves, a rasher of bacon and a soft-boiled egg, a wedge of cheese, and a pot of mint tea....and get back to work!

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Sorry, *munch, munch* what was that? *burp* I can't *munch* hear you over *swallow* the sound of my *chew* delicious homemade lamprey *munch* pies. *gulp*

Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

I hope we get his back story. Is he a Stark? It would make a TON of sense to have him be a Stark relative of some sort.

- The Stark's keep the old gods, and wouldn't be natural enemies of the CotF.

- This could explain the magic used by Bran the Builder to build the wall forever ago as the CotF already recognizing their mistake and helping divide the realm into the old (North of the wall) and the new (for the Andals) as kind of peace treaty of sorts. Since the WW's are clearly into destruction of man at all costs, and the CotF didn't know they'd take it this far.

- Gives Benjen an out to show up as a helper and very loose excuses as to why he could have survived for so long so north of the wall.

Also, just jogged my memory from season 1. Sam references one of Measter Aemon's books that says once a WW touches you when dead, you rise as a wight. What does this mean for Bran's "mark"? After raising all the dead at Hardhome, I think this was just a continuity error by the show, and Bran's mark is more for the sorcery unlock achievement for cave entrance and, I think, subsequent wall destruction.

nm- misread post

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When did it show Bran being fine after? They trudged off into the blizzard while Hodor was getting cut up and Bran was still in the past. Then the silent credits.

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True and a good point. I was basing it on his standing there watching Young Hodor, obviously understanding what was happening, when that wasn't really "him". But it's also a realistic guess because if Bran is comatose/incommunicable the rest of his life, then he becomes totally pointless.

Although I guess Bran's body could be out of commission while his consciousness roams the land, like Kane from Kung Fu.

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Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

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Yeah this seems like a BIG deal to me, and I think that the first WW was a Stark as well. Would explain the Starks almost mystical relationship with Winter. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" has always seemed like something that has more meaning than "because it's our house."

He can't stop all the downloadin'.

But the first of the Starks was Bran the Builder and he helped build the wall. Why would he build the wall if he was the first WW?

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But the first of the Starks was Bran the Builder and he helped build the wall. Why would he build the wall if he was the first WW?

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I'm not saying Bran the Builder is the Night's King, but that Bran worked with the CotF to build the wall after they took another Stark and turned him into the NK.

Thinking more about it though, the Night's King was said to be an old commander of the Night's Watch too, right? That ruins the theory of the CotF helping build the wall...

dammit.

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But the first of the Starks was Bran the Builder and he helped build the wall. Why would he build the wall if he was the first WW?

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Maybe Bran was the younger brother. And maybe history has forgotten some stuff over thousands of years. No one knew that the Children created the Walkers to be their Navy SEALS until Sunday night; maybe there's other stuff that the characters don't know about - or know just enough to get it mixed up.

Or maybe the first WW was a Bolton, lol.

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I guess if grrm passed away his work could be finished by others. Similar to Robert Jordan and the massive WoT series.

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but how many people are willing to spend 6 chapters and 800 pages describing the way a single arrow flies through the air before striking a bird while there is a million man battle going on.

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Maybe the books would be finished quicker without all the descriptions of food

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but knowing the exact color and placement of the char on a roasted boar is much more important than finishing the story

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In fairness, his vivid descriptions constitute one element separating the Ice & Fire universe from all the awful novels in the fantasy genre

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I guess if grrm passed away his work could be finished by others. Similar to Robert Jordan and the massive WoT series.

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but how many people are willing to spend 6 chapters and 800 pages describing the way a single arrow flies through the air before striking a bird while there is a million man battle going on.

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Maybe the books would be finished quicker without all the descriptions of food

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but knowing the exact color and placement of the char on a roasted boar is much more important than finishing the story

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In fairness, his vivid descriptions constitute one element separating the Ice & Fire universe from all the awful novels in the fantasy genre

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He goes overboard in some areas, namely food and sex. But his descriptions are usually great.

The chapter in the first book when catelyn climbs to the eyrie is one of my favorites scenes in the whole series, purely for the incredible scenery.

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Wasn't it once speculated that the old horn that Sam and Jon found with the dragonglass at fist of first men could be horn of winter?

First kingsmoot in 1000 years and they only had about 40 people in attendance. About as much interest as viewers have. I did think it was cool that they showed one of the Damphair's drowing scenes

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In the show, they act as if a kingsmoot is a normal event at the death of a sovereign. Just a change from the books, I suppose ... probably to save ten mintes of screen time explaining why it is so unusual.

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On a re-watch - Bran was in the past when he warged into Big Hodor, but he stayed in the past and didn't fully return to the present. Big Hodor "holding the door" was really Bran, inside Hodor, controlling him and pummeling his brain with "Hold the Door Hold the Door Hold the Door." But since Bran was in the past, it seems like he warged into both Hodors at the same time and all three were connected. Young Hodor was also being pummeled with "Hold the Door Hold the Door Hold the Door" and when Big Hodor died, the pummeling stopped but he had been irrevocably damaged.

Here's an interesting thought - I seem to remember Varymir or the 3EC saying that if you are warged into another person/animal and they die before you can get out, you will be permanently damaged by it and unable to return to your own body. But Bran was fine afterwards (and obviously will be since he has more to do in this story) so I wonder if he was unconsciously pushing that "damage" onto Young Hodor to protect himself, since the three were linked.

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Star for the first paragraph, but negative star for the second. Vatymir was warged into his eagle when it was burned from the sky.

Joe Cole, I believe ship captains are the ones who vote at the kingsmoot but in the books their crews come with them so it should have been a bigger crowd but mostly composed of the warriors

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Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

I hope we get his back story. Is he a Stark? It would make a TON of sense to have him be a Stark relative of some sort.

- The Stark's keep the old gods, and wouldn't be natural enemies of the CotF.

- This could explain the magic used by Bran the Builder to build the wall forever ago as the CotF already recognizing their mistake and helping divide the realm into the old (North of the wall) and the new (for the Andals) as kind of peace treaty of sorts. Since the WW's are clearly into destruction of man at all costs, and the CotF didn't know they'd take it this far.

- Gives Benjen an out to show up as a helper and very loose excuses as to why he could have survived for so long so north of the wall.

Also, just jogged my memory from season 1. Sam references one of Measter Aemon's books that says once a WW touches you when dead, you rise as a wight. What does this mean for Bran's "mark"? After raising all the dead at Hardhome, I think this was just a continuity error by the show, and Bran's mark is more for the sorcery unlock achievement for cave entrance and, I think, subsequent wall destruction.

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The Andals did not come to Westeros until thousands of years after the Wall was built. Bran the Builder (if he is more than legend) was of the First Men.

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Still sad:

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Star for the first paragraph, but negative star for the second. Vatymir was warged into his eagle when it was burned from the sky.

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I thought I remember him leaving the eagle before it actually died, while it was dying. But I'm going off memory so you are probably right. I may be thinking of Robin Hobb's tales.

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But the first of the Starks was Bran the Builder and he helped build the wall. Why would he build the wall if he was the first WW?

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I'm not saying Bran the Builder is the Night's King, but that Bran worked with the CotF to build the wall after they took another Stark and turned him into the NK.

Thinking more about it though, the Night's King was said to be an old commander of the Night's Watch too, right? That ruins the theory of the CotF helping build the wall...

dammit.

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My understanding was that Bran the Builder built the wall and ALSO founded the Stark family name. Point being, I don't think there's really a connection between the Stark name and the guy who was the first to be turned into a White Walker as those didn't exist in the same point in history.

For the purposes of your second question, let's not confuse the current Night's King with the very first human to be turned into a White Walker. I don't think they HAVE to be the same (after all, it has been thousands of years and many battles with the humans).

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I hear you here, but didn't they use the same actor in the show? The guy getting stabbed and the nights king are played by the same guy right?

The Night's King can't be the OG WW if he defected from the NW, but that is probably just a book vs show deal.

The Night's King

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According to legend, Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior named the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Later, he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars". He chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. Night's King brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years.

During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the north. It was not until Brandon the Breaker, the King of Winter, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed.After his fall, when it was discovered that Night's King had been making sacrifices to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden and forgotten. It is likely this led the lords of the north to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south.

Maesters are skeptical of the legend, thinking Night's King's corpse queen was possibly a daughter of a Barrow King from the barrowlands. Some fan theories link her with the Others because of her description.

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But the first of the Starks was Bran the Builder and he helped build the wall. Why would he build the wall if he was the first WW?

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I'm not saying Bran the Builder is the Night's King, but that Bran worked with the CotF to build the wall after they took another Stark and turned him into the NK.

Thinking more about it though, the Night's King was said to be an old commander of the Night's Watch too, right? That ruins the theory of the CotF helping build the wall...

dammit.

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It probably won't be distinguished in the show but the original WW that was turned is not the Night King

The problem in the show is that the original human turned and the Night King are played by the same actor

I think that the show is streamlining some of the Nights King/WW issues. But it's also possible that legend is wrong. I like the idea of the first WW being the current Night's King, even though it isn't in the books, and maybe it's true in the books too. One of the things I think we'll discover is that a lot of the known legends are wrong regarding the Walkers.

It was intriguing to me that in The World of Ice and Fire, so little was said about the North. Yes, that was the convention of the book, that it was written by a Southron Maester and the North wouldn't have been all that interesting to them, but as an author, you know the GRRM knows how much we all want info on the Starks, the North and the Others. I feel like a lot of that was left out because it would have been spoilery ( at least I hope so!)

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Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

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Yeah this seems like a BIG deal to me, and I think that the first WW was a Stark as well. Would explain the Starks almost mystical relationship with Winter. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" has always seemed like something that has more meaning than "because it's our house."

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I wonder if "Winterfell" might literally mean that is where the Others were defeated by the combined forces of the CotF and the First Men... literally where "Winter Fell":

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It is unknown where the children of the forest came from, nor for how long they alone in their land before humans arrived. A child named Leaf claimed at least "a thousand thousand of your man-years."[4] For thousands of years the children had to themselves, or shared only with the giants, the landmass that later became known as Westeros. Eventually about 12,000 years ago, the children came in contact with the First Men, the first outsiders. These invaders from Essos brought with them bronze, great leathern shields, the first horses, and their own gods. They burned the great weirwoods as they came, leading to war between the two.

For roughly 2,000 years the two races fought a desperate war for dominance. The children used their magic to shatter the Arm of Dorne, the land-bridge through which the First Men came, in a futile attempt to end the invasion and later flooded the Neck - where legend has it that the children called upon their gods from the Children's Tower to send the hammer of the waters to smash the Neck, as they smashed the Arm of Dorne, but it was not enough to stop the advance of the First Men. The histories say that some of the First Men, the crannogmen, grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.[5]

Eventually the First Men and the children fought one another to a standstill. The two races agreed to peaceful coexistence and signed the Pact on the Isle of Faces, granting the open lands to humanity and the forests to the children.

The Pact lasted for 4,000 years before the enigmatic Others invaded from the uttermost north, bringing death and destruction to both races, during an extended period of winter known as the Long Night. The children of the forest joined with the First Men, lead by the last hero, to fight against the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Eventually the Others were driven back into the Lands of Always Winter.

After the Long Night, the First Men and the children of the forest lived in relative peace. In these years, the children of the forest began their slow withdrawal from the lands of men, retreating deeper into their forests and beyond the Wall. During the Age of Heroes it was also recorded by the Night's Watch that the children of the forest gave the black brothers a hundred obsidian daggers every year.[6]

The children of the forest taught the worship of the old gods to the First Men, but the old gods were largely supplanted in the south by the Faith of the Seven after the Andal invasion. A hill, now known to the Westerosi as High Heart, was sacred to the children of the forest. There the Andal king Erreg the Kinslayer cut down the children's grove of thirty-one weirwoods.[7] High Heart is said to be haunted by the ghosts of the children who died there, likely defending their grove from Erreg. Some of the children's magic is said to still linger at High Heart.

Relations between the children and humans grew distant over the years, until they ceased altogether. By the time of Aegon's Landing, humans had not seen the children for thousands of years.[8]

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1. The crannogmen were very close the CotF
2. I think the Isle of Faces will come back into play - this is where there were rumors of CotF still hanging about (from A History of Westeros)
3. I wonder if the Last Hero was a Stark?
4. This must mean there are Hundreds of Thousands of obsidian daggers laying around in storage somewhere.

**** me.

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I guess if grrm passed away his work could be finished by others. Similar to Robert Jordan and the massive WoT series.

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but how many people are willing to spend 6 chapters and 800 pages describing the way a single arrow flies through the air before striking a bird while there is a million man battle going on.

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Maybe the books would be finished quicker without all the descriptions of food

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but knowing the exact color and placement of the char on a roasted boar is much more important than finishing the story

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Hold on, I have to go tend to the sausages on the fire. They're spitting and crackling as their juices drip hot grease onto the oaken wrought flames.

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You think the guy that held onto the secret and mapped out - over 6 books/seasons - that "HODOR" = "Hold the Door" would change his master plan for how all of this fits together in the end?

That was my first thought when Hodor was revealed as "Hold the Door"... GRRM is a ****ing long-con GENIUS.

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He's always said that he had the general story arc down from beginning to end, so you do have a point. He is, however, making up the particulars of the "journey" of getting to the end as he goes along. I don't truly think that he would alter the book ending at this point. I put odds of him even finishing the last book at 40%.

I do think it would be awesome, others are certainly welcome to disagree.

Why might he do it? GRRM has a certain pride about him & IMO loves the attention that the show & books have brought him. Once the show has concluded & he has one book to go, I could see him saying to heck with it & just changing things up for the attention & for the notoriety he would gain. Not to mention book sales. I wish he would do it... but like I said, 40% chance to complete the book with the same ending as the show.

True. But for me, it's not so much the description of food and clothing (I typically find that stuff boring) but more so the vast amount of intricate descriptions of horses, weaponry, armor, castles, military terminology, etc. It brings a higher level of credibility to the writer and research put in to writing the books.

Now that being said, since we all now know what a destrier, gorget, and a portcullis is, finish the damn books.

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Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

I hope we get his back story. Is he a Stark? It would make a TON of sense to have him be a Stark relative of some sort.

- The Stark's keep the old gods, and wouldn't be natural enemies of the CotF.

- This could explain the magic used by Bran the Builder to build the wall forever ago as the CotF already recognizing their mistake and helping divide the realm into the old (North of the wall) and the new (for the Andals) as kind of peace treaty of sorts. Since the WW's are clearly into destruction of man at all costs, and the CotF didn't know they'd take it this far.

- Gives Benjen an out to show up as a helper and very loose excuses as to why he could have survived for so long so north of the wall.

Also, just jogged my memory from season 1. Sam references one of Measter Aemon's books that says once a WW touches you when dead, you rise as a wight. What does this mean for Bran's "mark"? After raising all the dead at Hardhome, I think this was just a continuity error by the show, and Bran's mark is more for the sorcery unlock achievement for cave entrance and, I think, subsequent wall destruction.

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The Andals did not come to Westeros until thousands of years after the Wall was built. Bran the Builder (if he is more than legend) was of the First Men.

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Sorry, confusion of terms. Meant First Men, typed Andal since I've been watching season one and have read "Jorah the Andal" in Dothraki at least a thousand times.

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Still stuck on the Children creating the Night's King.

I hope we get his back story. Is he a Stark? It would make a TON of sense to have him be a Stark relative of some sort.

- The Stark's keep the old gods, and wouldn't be natural enemies of the CotF.

- This could explain the magic used by Bran the Builder to build the wall forever ago as the CotF already recognizing their mistake and helping divide the realm into the old (North of the wall) and the new (for the Andals) as kind of peace treaty of sorts. Since the WW's are clearly into destruction of man at all costs, and the CotF didn't know they'd take it this far.

- Gives Benjen an out to show up as a helper and very loose excuses as to why he could have survived for so long so north of the wall.

Also, just jogged my memory from season 1. Sam references one of Measter Aemon's books that says once a WW touches you when dead, you rise as a wight. What does this mean for Bran's "mark"? After raising all the dead at Hardhome, I think this was just a continuity error by the show, and Bran's mark is more for the sorcery unlock achievement for cave entrance and, I think, subsequent wall destruction.

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Your first bullet point is wrong. The first men and the children were bitter enemies. It wasn't until they brokered a peace (likely after the children's creations got out of control) that they started worshipping the old gods.

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Right. Understood. I suppose my theory would rely on the Starks specifically not being huge enemies but had an uneasy peace and that's the reason they still have the godswood/wierwood whereas the rest of Westeros chopped them down and drove out the CotF as Leaf said in last episode?

The timeline of brokered peace with the First Men (maybe even only the Starks/Bran the Builder) to build the wall to keep the WW under control is where I think the theory falls apart. This, of course, assuming that the current NK in the show is the same NK from the tales in the book, which I think is a bridge too far apart.

The author reportedly told fans on Monday night that the books will handle the whole thing differently. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/game-of-thrones-hodor-george-rr-martin-different?platform=hootsuite