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But it wouldn't be natural unless reed had a good damn excuse not to be part of robbs army when he called his vassals.

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Could have sworn the Reeds were holding the bog area around moat caitlin and making life hard on the invading army, no?

Edit: not sure how that emoji happened...

Oh I know. It just looks weird.

Interesting book difference: Bloodraven is "only" like 200 YO, but 3eye said he's been there over 1000.

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Like most though, I really just don't think this story will have that kind of ending. If the WW are mostly just the evil foe that they are currently made out to be and humanity prevails, I think it's still very likely that humanity will be severely impacted by the war between them. The world is likely not going to be the same. Perhaps Westeros will survive as one kingdom, but it's likely going to be very shakey. Only a true hero from the war or someone that still has overwhelming power (Dany with her dragons) are likely going to be able to hold it together.

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I don't think Westeros will be one Kingdom in the end. I think the Starks will end up controlling the North and Dany will end up with the rest. Also, I really don't want Snow and Dany to end up together.

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Edit: not sure how that emoji happened...

Oh I know. It just looks weird.

Interesting book difference: Bloodraven is "only" like 200 YO, but 3eye said he's been there over 1000.

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ball gage emoji = reek emoji

So I know that it is normal for Targ's, but do y'all think the show will have Jon and his aunt hook up? Or is that a bit too much?

(Yes, Jamie and Cersa, but they were/are "bad guys...)

Perhaps Reed stays in the bog during Robb's war in the north because he never fully recovers from the chest wound.

I think now that Reed has been mentioned he will play a role in exposing the truth about jons parentage. One potential book/show change may be that sir Arthur daynes sword was kept by Reed. When Jon rolls down from the wall to rally the north and reclaim Winterfell, he is presented Dawn, aka lightbringer. Winter is coming and the prince that was promised is coming with it.

Someone thinks highly of himself.

Truth is I stayed away from this thread because it's not book/show, it's spoilers which means released twow stuff and show spoilers.

So no, I don't read your past posts.

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I think others have already mentioned that Jon being a Targ might be mostly irrelevant to the people in the story (if still significant to the story), but that him being the savior of mankind would still draw others to him. That in itself (wielding a flaming sword, leading the people to victory, possibly riding a dragon) could be enough for him to claim power (if he and others wanted it in the event that he makes it to the end). If he is also rumored to be a Targ, it would just give him even further support (potentially by making him a better suitor to Dany).

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Jon has already shown the ability to find support and power, even when he's not seeking it. The Night's watch picked him as Lord Commander, the wildlings followed him, even Stannis wanted him to join up. He'll probably have no trouble picking up support along the rest of the way.

If it comes out (and is believed) that he's Rhaegar's son, I'm curious how it would be accepted among the so called nobility. He probably would still technically be a b-stard. Would guys like Randall Tarly (a Targ supporter of old) be like, yeah that's my king?

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The dude at the end of season 4 looked like he was one with the tree. The tree blind analogy is perfect for Max Von Shadow. It just looks odd.

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Show quotes...

TER: I've told you many times, stay too long where you don't belong and you will never return.

Bran: Why do I want to return? So I can be a cripple again? So I can talk to an old man in a tree?

TER: Do you think I wanted to sit here for a thousand years watching the world from a distance, as the roots grew through me?

Bran: So why did you?

TER: I was waiting for you.

Bran: I don't want to be you.

TER: <chuckle> I don't blame you. You won't be here forever. You won't be an old man in a tree, but before you leave you MUST LEARN.

Bran: Learn what?

TER: Everything.

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I continue to believe that Max von Sidow is simply Bran's vision of Bloodraven and that the actual, physical Bloodraven continues to look just like the S4 depiction.

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I don't think Westeros will be one Kingdom in the end. I think the Starks will end up controlling the North and Dany will end up with the rest. Also, I really don't want Snow and Dany to end up together.

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Jon deserves another hot redhead. Daario can keep Dany.

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I continue to believe that Max von Sidow is simply Bran's vision of Bloodraven and that the actual, physical Bloodraven continues to look just like the S4 depiction.

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Interesting theory. I like it. Better than MVS in his deer stand at least.

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I'm pretty much Bored. Now. with Aryas entire plot but I liked the Waif knocking her down for lying when she said she had 4 brothers. Hey, it's not a lie if you believe it!
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It was easy for me to interpret this as "oh because Jon Snow is a b*stard", but I think it's more foreshadowing that Jon Snow is not actually her brother because he's her cousin...

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The then said 3 brothers and a half brother. But that's because she believes it to be so.

She has 3 brothers and an older cousin.

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If you think someone is gonna jump out and say Jon Snow the ******* was a secret Targaryen, the true king, the realm rejoices, everyone lives happily ever after...etc then I don't know what to tell you. The audience will likely know Jon's parentage, but I highly doubt he lives to be king. The secret ******* becoming a king is too much of a cliche trope.

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I am assuming he learns of it; but since it's his destiny to become King, he has to take it.

No one is going to annoint him but himself. And by learning his true heritage, he gains the confidence, direction, and ambition to become King.

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The dude at the end of season 4 looked like he was one with the tree. The tree blind analogy is perfect for Max Von Shadow. It just looks odd.

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Show quotes...

TER: I've told you many times, stay too long where you don't belong and you will never return.

Bran: Why do I want to return? So I can be a cripple again? So I can talk to an old man in a tree?

TER: Do you think I wanted to sit here for a thousand years watching the world from a distance, as the roots grew through me?

Bran: So why did you?

TER: I was waiting for you.

Bran: I don't want to be you.

TER: <chuckle> I don't blame you. You won't be here forever. You won't be an old man in a tree, but before you leave you MUST LEARN.

Bran: Learn what?

TER: Everything.

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I continue to believe that Max von Sidow is simply Bran's vision of Bloodraven and that the actual, physical Bloodraven continues to look just like the S4 depiction.

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Agree

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Edit: not sure how that emoji happened...

Oh I know. It just looks weird.

Interesting book difference: Bloodraven is "only" like 200 YO, but 3eye said he's been there over 1000.

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Since he as the ability to "see" all of time (where weirwoods are present, anyway), hasn't he "been there" forever?

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Agree

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The episode is called Oathbreaker, but who broke their oath?

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Sam, when Gilly called him the father of her perma-baby. He took an oath to "father no children".

Ned, who rebelled against his rightful king.

Dayne & the other Kingsguard, who swore an oath to defend their King, not obey the Prince's orders.

Daenerys, who did not willingly do her duty and join the Dosh Khaleen. I think this was part of her marriage vows.

The prostitute, when she gave up info about the SotH to Varys.

Jon Umber, when he gave his liege lord to Ramsay.

Marsh, Yarwyck, Thorne, and Olly, who hung for murdering their Lord Commander.

Finally, Jon Snow. The oath says "live and die at my post". It doesn't relieve you of duty if you come back from the dead. The men who wrote the Oath were likely familiar with men rising from the dead. If you are living, you are in the NW.

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Jon Umber, when he gave his liege lord to Ramsay.

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Just to be clear... Bran is The King of the North, now right?

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Jon Umber, when he gave his liege lord to Ramsay.

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Just to be clear... Bran is The King of the North, now right?

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I thought it was Ramsay since he married Sansa?

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Finally, Jon Snow. The oath says "live and die at my post". It doesn't relieve you of duty if you come back from the dead. The men who wrote the Oath were likely familiar with men rising from the dead. If you are living, you are in the NW.

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It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Jon fulfilled both of those oaths. He did live and die at his post.

Either way, those are fairly weak examples of "Oathbreaking"...seemed like a stretch

King in the North is not an actual title that can be inherited. That's what they decided to call Robb in order to fully rebel against the Iron Throne.

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Finally, Jon Snow. The oath says "live and die at my post". It doesn't relieve you of duty if you come back from the dead. The men who wrote the Oath were likely familiar with men rising from the dead. If you are living, you are in the NW.

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It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Jon fulfilled both of those oaths. He did live and die at his post.

Either way, those are fairly weak examples of "Oathbreaking"...seemed like a stretch

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There is also a bit that goes "For this night, and every night to come"

I guess the "until my death" part supercedes it, but it's interesting I think.

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Finally, Jon Snow. The oath says "live and die at my post". It doesn't relieve you of duty if you come back from the dead. The men who wrote the Oath were likely familiar with men rising from the dead. If you are living, you are in the NW.

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"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come"

Bran is a paraplegic boy who left a burned out Winterfell with two other children and a halfwit. I doubt anyone believes he is still alive. Manderly doesn't. In the book, Manderly sends Davos to Skagos to get Rickon, whom he calls his "liege lord".

The Stark's would have the claim to the title. Bran would be the holder of the claim based on what we know. Jon Snow might also hold it if prevailing knowledge was that he was Ned's son and that Robb had legitimized him depending on how legitimized *******s fall in the order of succession.

I totally missed the part about "until my death". Still, it is uncharted territory. If he wasn't Lord Commander and the NW wasn't as weak as it is, would he be allowed to walk? If Sam came back from the dead and was normal, would Jon let him walk away?

Jon has a real problem here. Nobody will believe he was resurrected. He is going to have a hard time keeping his head off the chopping block, because everybody in the North knows he is LC of the NW, and everybody knows what to do with NW who go AWOL. The only people who can vouch for him are a red-haired witch and former pirate. He can't hold lands, father children, blah blah blah.

Of course, owning a dragon will cure all that.

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I totally missed the part about "until my death". Still, it is uncharted territory. If he wasn't Lord Commander and the NW wasn't as weak as it is, would he be allowed to walk? If Sam came back from the dead and was normal, would Jon let him walk away?

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...Yea? Why wouldn't he? I'm sure he'd like to have a chat with him first. Either way, doesn't really matter. Jon died, he fulfilled his oath, now it's time to kick some ******* ass.

Who executes deserters from the NW? Judging by the pilot episode, it's the Lord of Winterfell, in this case Ramsay. Ramsay wants him dead either way, so bring on the battle.