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Good lord dude. Calm down. The writers/directors blew it. It happens. No need for you to ride across westeros defending their honor.

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I'm not upset....I just can't fathom calling that a plot hole. Doesn't even meet the criteria of the definition of a plot hole. It was simply a choice by the writers and some people have a tough time filling in the blanks even when its obvious what happened. I don't really care either way and feel no need to defend their honor. I'm criticizing your lack of comprehension, thats all.

I'm glad you're easily entertained and can overlook inconsistencies. Some times I envy people that don't care.

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Book and show have gone down such different paths that I now expect full divergence. As in, the show could have an ending completely different from the books.

Otherwise, how would GRRM ever expect you to read another Dorne POV chapter? Especially years after the show ends? He needs divergence to sell books.

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Only if GRRM totally changes his story. The show writers know the overarching stories for each character through the end (i.e. The fact that Mel is 200+ years old is straight from GRRM).

Details will be different but both will be pretty similar. For example, the Dorne storyline in the book will be more detailed and drawn out, but the important thing was getting the Sand Snakes into KL. Last night's episode implied that is basically the only important part of that story, which is why the writers had to make it work on a much more compressed timeline.

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See this is the kind of stuff I don't agree with. You could very well be right, but what happens in the show doesn't imply anything for the books. Things have been changed already (like Sansa marrying Ramsay) for the sake of convenience. They are interested in reducing the number of storylines and characters.

The Dornish alone had several POV characters and were really introducing multiple more at the end of book 5 (sand snakes going to KL, the Citadel, etc.). More than one of those could easily matter in the books, but the show can't keep adding stuff. They are already putting more characters in touch with each other and doing so more quickly than the books. They are headed toward a resolution, and that means compromises are made and important things are combined or written out completely in favor of what they think will work best.

For instance, they could try to use Sam's story to tell everything about the Citadel. They can give all of the Dany interactions to Tyrion (I hope he isn't killed by the dragons) and potentially Euron.

So, any thoughts on all the attention the paid to Jon Snow's blood?

First you had the end of last season with the focus on it spreading out from his body, which everyone analyzed to death and ultimately couldn't come to any consensus. I personally thought people were reading too much into it, but then you have Davos doing almost a double take while looking at the blood in the snow and now I have to wonder if there isn't something there that we are either supposed to pick up on, or that will be revealed to us in a later episode.

Thoughts? Anybody have a clip of the relevant scene they can link to help me out?

Hope tyrion isn't killed by a dragon? Haven't you heard... He's supposed to be one of the three heads of the dragons Tyrion Targaryen has such a nice ring to it.

Also... The conversation was great until people began arguing about plot holes. Inconsistencies will happen... In the show and books. I'm listening to a podcast on the books called "Davos' Fingers" and they've picked up on some inconsistencies... Minor ones, but that's bound to happen when you write 5,000+ pages on a single series with a billion characters. As long as GRRM doesn't pull a LOST and answers the main questions and ties up the main strings by the end of this saga, I'll consider it to be a success.

I'm not hung up on the missing dogs or the sand snakes being on the boat. My problem is their killing Doran when he gets the letter. They already had the guards in their pocket, they knew he would find out eventually, so why act so surprised when he heard the news? In an attempt to make the sand snakes badass the writers have made them into the shallowest and most short sighted fools of the show.

Maybe I'm just bitter about wasting Alexander Siddig and Indira Varma being miscast. Thankfully, it's the only area of the show that has been almost a complete miss for me.

Looking forward, can't wait for unGregor to take on a dozen lannister guards, Bran establishes green dreams to set up ToJ for the next episode, and I'm hoping Arya finally gets wolf dreams so she can use a cat to beat the waif

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I'm not hung up on the missing dogs or the sand snakes being on the boat. My problem is their killing Doran when he gets the letter. They already had the guards in their pocket, they knew he would find out eventually, so why act so surprised when he heard the news? In an attempt to make the sand snakes badass the writers have made them into the shallowest and most short sighted fools of the show.

Maybe I'm just bitter about wasting Alexander Siddig and Indira Varma being miscast. Thankfully, it's the only area of the show that has been almost a complete miss for me.

Looking forward, can't wait for unGregor to take on a dozen lannister guards, Bran establishes green dreams to set up ToJ for the next episode, and I'm hoping Arya finally gets wolf dreams so she can use a cat to beat the waif

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I guess they just wanted Doran to know what they had done before they killed him and to inform him they would kill Trystane as well.

Did you think they (Ellaria and the one sand snake) looked surprised? I saw Ellaria giving the sand snake chick a knowing look as he read the letter and she moved in behind the guard. Its like they were just waiting for the letter to act.

But yeah, either way it is a weak plot point. I mean what if the letter had not arrived at that exact moment - they might not have had the opportunity. They apparently did not control the messenger either because she killed him too while he was running away so they could not have known when it was being delivered. Thats poor writing.

I agree though, it is really odd, it is almost as if the Dorne plotline is being written by someone else completely. Even their big moments are flawed in their execution. Unless they are intentionally making them out to be morons I suppose. Most of the other coups or twists have much better thought out plot devices.

Thought that too. They also seemed to focus on the watcher closing Jons eyes. Maybe so the viewer is aware that they were closed, since they may be open soon.

I thought it was a surprised look at the time but I haven't rewatched it so I will need to go back. I just think there could have been more impact for the betrayal if she had told Doran before the letter arrived, then used it to confirm Myrcella's death. The whole thing is just a mess, and I wish I could like Ellaria but she's getting to Shae levels of bad.

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I'm glad you're easily entertained and can overlook inconsistencies. Some times I envy people that don't care.

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Fantastic, subtle troll.

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I'm glad you're easily entertained and can overlook inconsistencies. Some times I envy people that don't care.

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This is what Davos stared at...



Seems pretty unremarkable?

This was Jon Snow as the video did the flyby and zoom in...



If anything it looks more like a wolf howling with fore paws by JS's left elbow and howling muzzle by his left ear.

Here's a Jon Snow Force-Ghost overlay on the same spot... looks like it's just his arms leaving behind blood smudges... nothing to see here, IMO.

or it looks like a guy lying in random blood that can be interpreted by vivid imaginations as anything you want, like clouds.

i think if they wanted us to see something, it would look a lot more definitively like something.

imho.

thats a result of flying blind here....no more books as the definitive resource.

Jon Snow rorschach blood blots

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Jon Snow rorschach blood blots

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Clouds, and some nice flowers.

This week on Westerorschach we look at blood and snow, join us next week for blood and stones!

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or it looks like a guy lying in random blood that can be interpreted by vivid imaginations as anything you want, like clouds.

i think if they wanted us to see something, it would look a lot more definitively like something.

imho.

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For the record, I did say it was unremarkable and that it was "nothing to see here".

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or it looks like a guy lying in random blood that can be interpreted by vivid imaginations as anything you want, like clouds.

i think if they wanted us to see something, it would look a lot more definitively like something.

imho.

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For the record, I did say it was unremarkable and that it was "nothing to see here".

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i wasn't calling you out....i didn't reply to anyone specifically. just talking in general.

I would bet that the majority of show watchers have never read the book and have no idea about plot lines not being included. I'm fine with them not including some things since there is just too much to cover. The typical viewer won't miss anything since they don't know any different

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it is almost as if the Dorne plotline is being written by someone else completely. Even their big moments are flawed in their execution. Unless they are intentionally making them out to be morons I suppose. Most of the other coups or twists have much better thought out plot devices.

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Well. Actually the Dorne plot IS so divergent, it is being written by someone else. Even the Sansa in the north stuff draws heavily on the Jayne stuff. That Dorne story has no basis in Martin's work.

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I would bet that the majority of show watchers have never read the book and have no idea about plot lines not being included. I'm fine with them not including some things since there is just too much to cover. The typical viewer won't miss anything since they don't know any different

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The point is not things not being included... My point is that as displayed in the show, Dorne at this point is stupid and doesnt fit into the world. Even a show only viewer can understand the importance of the feudal political basis of the world in the show. The Dorne storyline just threw that out the window and now is acting like that entire part of the kingdom is going to randomly swear fealty to a handful of *******s for extremely dubious "revenge" motive, especially when the new "rulers" immediately go on a killing spree.

Are we just supposed to assume that Dorne has no other houses (like the Boltons) who will go, "whoops, no thanks *******s, we are actual lords and we are in charge now." Everything we know of the seven kingdoms from the show would indicate that that would happen if the sand snakes tried rather than actually be successful in this BS coup. Martin would never have this happening because he's far to in tune with actual medieval political machinations to throw this garbage in the books.

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Spot on. Now is this a joke or real life?

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/04/game-of-thrones-needs-a-sand-snakes-spinoff.html

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it is almost as if the Dorne plotline is being written by someone else completely. Even their big moments are flawed in their execution. Unless they are intentionally making them out to be morons I suppose. Most of the other coups or twists have much better thought out plot devices.

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Well. Actually the Dorne plot IS so divergent, it is being written by someone else. Even the Sansa in the north stuff draws heavily on the Jayne stuff. That Dorne story has no basis in Martin's work.

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good point. hopefully thats not a sign of bad things to come as they diverge other parts from the books more now that they are on their own.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/i-mean-i-guess-i-kinda-see-it-if-i-squint#.to2d5xkEDV

Considering all the recent posts about the shape of Jon's blood stain left behind

But you're going to see what you want to see