to discuss the series as a whole so as not to give away any secrets on the other threads?

Thanks. Having alot of fun with this series!

[This message has been edited by Southlake (edited 4/26/2012 12:38p).]

I just picked it up at the library, so give me a week or so, until then enjoy the other, really long thread.

Wondering how many more protagonists are gonna die.

Is Jon Snow really a goner?

In my opinion if you want to figure out who isn't going to die, go back to the first book and think about who you didn't like. Those will be the people who live.

There was way too much set up for John to really be dead. If he is, the only thing that I can think of, is that someone guessed the plot and GRRM got pissed off decided to change it.

If your head isn't chopped off your aren't "dead"

Guess Beric could always awaken him, but 4 knives?

George hated the Starks from the get go.

And geez, what about Rickon?

i don't think he's dead...maybe he'll rise as king of the wights or something if he is though

I thought Beric passed on whatever magic he had to Katlin?

Beric is dead. He gave up his life force to bring back Catelyn.

Jon almost certainly isn't dead dead. He may be warging. He may be brought back by Melisandre. He may survive his wounds. There are simply too many loose ends that can't be resolved without him and too much buildup.

BTW, did you figure out the Frey pie? Best part of DWD but it is very subtle.

Yeah, but I thought the Lightning Lord would never die? Bet he's not over yet...

Yes, we'll my wife did and told me. Very subtle indeed. Makes me wonder what else blew by me!

[This message has been edited by Southlake (edited 4/26/2012 10:47p).]

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He may be brought back by Melisandre

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i think this may be the most likely scenario...or a situation where like mance rayder and rattleshirt the "jon" they killed may not be the real jon

quote:

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There was way too much set up for John to really be dead

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Kind of like there was way too much set up for Ned to have died?

I wouldn't really use Ned as your counter-argument...his death was in the first book of a seven book series and was the catalyst for almost the entire plotline of what happens in Westeros. Jon has made it 5 books (at least for now)

Huge differences between Jon and Ned. With Ned's death it set all kinds other other pieces in motion and made for a chaotic and unpredictable plot. If Jon dies it would have almost no effect on the other characters other than making them sad or indifferent. It also would end all the buildup around R+L=J meaning anything and some of the prophecies wouldn't seem to make sense either. BTW, the hardest thing to catch in the books as you read them initially are all the prophecies and what they mean. The House of the Undying, M**** the Frog, Patchface, Quaithe, etc. all are prophetic and all of their prophecies seem to come true, though figuring out what they mean is another issue entirely. Besides, GRRM has all but said that Jon isn't really dead especially when you look at his mannerisms when he is asked the question.

Beric Dondarrion is confirmed dead. He had to convince Thoros of Myr to bring back Cat and the only way he could do it was to give up his lifeforce to do it as confirmed by Thoros of Myr in AFFC when Brienne meets Lady Stoneheart.

I was wondering with the success of the HBO series, do you really think that there will only be one more book?

I'm just wondering if he might add more books to the series. Sort of like Robert Jordan ended up doing.

CT there will be two books. Its a seven book series.

GRRM already has the names for them: The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

There is the bonus chapter on his website not to mention another one that will be released with the paperback release.

Martin also recently said the last 2 will be long, around 1500 pages each. He seems adamant about keeping it to 7 though and has said he doesn't plan on adding any new POV characters and to try to bring the story arcs together starting in the next book so it isn't all just a last few chapters of reveals.

*****Potential Winds of Winter Spoilers******

He has already said that WoW will start off with 2 battles in short order, the Battle of Ice (Stannis in the North) and Fire (Mereen).

Oh, and if you are up for a sample chapter of WoW (Theon) here is one, the only problem with reading it is you REALLY want the next book even more: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

He has also given readings of a few new chapters at various events over the last few months with 2 Arianne Chapters, a Tyrion, and a Victarion.

For as often and as detailed as the're described, Arianne's nipples in the show better be very big and very dark.

Seriously, how many times does the book mention the size and darkness of her nips? At least 5, IIRC.

Mmmm... You should read the discussion on Jeyne Westerlings hip size.

i would be okay if jon died permanently, he was an idiot for his decision at the end of Dance

but i know it'll never happen. he's almost certainly going to be the "big hero" or whatever

i'm more interested in...

-seeing if Bran stays as Mr. Tree forever, or does something else. i've always wanted the parallel with him and Bran the Builder to come true, like having him rebuild winterfell

-davos finding rickon and seeing what happens there. so many unknowns in this plotline

-victarion coming to meereen should be a ****storm. but with dany finally out of the city, it's getting interesting! barristan, tyrion, and victarion all in one city?! three badass characters!

it's gonna be another looong wait

We need to establish an over/under on when WOW will be published...

I'm saying 2015.

I'll take the over

Lol, I'll take the over too. And I will be very surprised if the series is wrapped up in two books; it's certainly possible, if he returns to the tight pacing and action of Clash and Storm, but the last two books have been much slower-paced, more descriptive and less action-oriented than the first three. Plus there are now a ton of new characters to be dealt with. I hope, I hope, I hope... but I have a bad feeling he just won't be able to wrap it up in two, even in 3000 words.

[This message has been edited by jenn96 (edited 4/28/2012 4:22p).]

The Long Night will kill off plenty of characters.

Bet he goes three books if he keeps this pace.

Every time you start to think he's trimming characters or plot lines, he brings someone else to the party.

Much fun.

Does it all boil down to fire vs. ice?

3 books means what 18 years?

GRRM is an old man and he wants to retire.

By the time this series is finished, if it is finished, I won't care about it anymore.

I'll take the over

Jon dying, then being resurrected, frees him from his oath to the wall.

I'm taking the under. GRRM has stated he knows how it ends and the end result for all the characters. He has also stated that he isn't planning on creating new POV's and wants to work on bringing things to a conclusion. He was clearly stuck with the "Meerenese knot" but it seems like he is through that now.

I think he will have a little more fun with all the press he has gotten and focus on knocking out the last 2. He's got more help than ever before as well which he has also spoken about and he was able to write Books 2 and 3 pretty fast. There are just a lot of things he can't really do as well until he finishes the books, not without this hanging over his head at every turn.

Of course, I'm an optimist.

The question is how much pressure is he going to get from HBO to get it done sooner. E says no, but I'm not so sure.


I want to subscribe to 93's POV... But alas.

Then there is the Sword of Damocles out there... GRRM's health.

I'm not so sure he can make it 6 more years. I've seen it written that he will not go the Sanderson route either.

He has expressly said that no one else will ever finish the series, and his wife (who would presumably control his estate) has made it clear that she feels the same way. He's told HBO the outlines of how the story ends, in case he never gets finished (for any reason) but I can't imagine any scenario where someone else finishes the novels for him. I can't imagine him writing for another 12-18 years - its a lot of work, and he's ready to retire. I really hope he can wrap it up in the next few years. He's certainly capable of it - see how quickly written and tightly paced the earlier books were - but that was 15 years ago. Writing styles change.

I'm really hoping the next book opens with "As the tsunami receded, millions were dead, including all the annoying pointless sub-characters in Slavers Bay and most of the Iron Islands. And the Sand Snakes." Only, you know, written GRRM style. Seriously though, the sooner some of the POVs tighten up and start to converge, the happier I'll be.