any parents here brave enough to not vaccinate their child?

14,885 Views | 103 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by TX AG 88
Natasha Romanoff
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Sometimes I wonder how I survived childhood because my parents obviously didn't love me enough to not vaccinate me/not space out my vaccines.




This is such a first world problem debate.
FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
quote:
I care far less about what politicians say about vaccines than what doctors say about vaccines.

Ron Paul is a doctor, and he is right.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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quote:
A vaccine for Lyme disease, LYMErix, was licensed by the FDA and marketed for almost four years before being pulled from the market after several class action lawsuits were filed due to a potential causal relationship to autoimmune arthritis. Rotashield, a vaccine for rotavirus (RV), was pulled from the market by the manufacturer nine months after it was introduced after it was discovered that the vaccine might have contributed to higher instances of intussusception (bowel obstruction).
Umm no, LYMErix production stopped because a bunch anti-vaxx nuts started attributing nonspecific issues to this vaccine without any actual substantive evidence, and when they actually researched the claims it turned out to be complete BS.

Also, as PB says I have no idea what the opinions of politicians have to do with the issue.
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Bob Loblaws Law Blog
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AG
Thanks for exposing the selfish idiots on this board!
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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quote:
quote:
I care far less about what politicians say about vaccines than what doctors say about vaccines.

Ron Paul is a doctor, and he is right.
Ron Paul is an Ob/Gyn and he thinks the government building roads is an affront to our personal freedom.
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Beckdiesel03
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AG
I do what my pediatrician says. Like vaccines. Don't like flu vaccines. It's our only weirdness I guess . My kid has also not been very sick in his life so I guess we are doing something right.
FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
I care far less about what politicians say about vaccines than what doctors say about vaccines.

Ron Paul is a doctor, and he is right.
Ron Paul is an Ob/Gyn and he thinks the government building roads is an affront to our personal freedom.

Are ob/gyns not doctors? What do roads have to do with him saying the government shouldn't make medical decisions for us?
BurnetAggie99
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/

Here's a NCBI white paper on my why it was pulled because of legit reasons. The FDA allowed it to be approved with no long term study ever done on the vaccine. Its a money game and big pharma influences the the CDC & FDA decisions versus being a independent entity that informs the risk & rewards when it comes to these types of issues.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I care far less about what politicians say about vaccines than what doctors say about vaccines.

Ron Paul is a doctor, and he is right.
Ron Paul is an Ob/Gyn and he thinks the government building roads is an affront to our personal freedom.

What do roads have to do with him saying the government shouldn't make medical decisions for us?
Its to show how dogmatic he is on the issue to the point of insanity. An idividual in a modern society should have the ability to make their own choices as long as it does not harm others. Someone refusing to take their TB meds or refusing to give their children vaccines are choices that have repercussions that have an affect on more than just a single individual.
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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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Burnet, you didn't actually read the article, did you?

quote:
All symptoms resolved without treatment and no difference appeared in the frequency of long-term joint symptoms between the vaccine and the placebo groups (i.e. 13% vs. 12%)
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FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
Not getting vaccinated doesn't infringe on anyone's rights and even if the government thinks vaccines for everyone is for the greater good, it's not their place to make that decision. I think we have fundental philosophical differences and neither one of us is going to change our mind.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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Indeed, but I'd ask you to reevaluate your dogmatism concerning personal freedom. As is frequently asked to staunch libertarians "who will build the roads?"
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FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
I never said gov't shouldn't collect taxes to build roads or schools or military. I have no idea what ron paul's stance is on those issues, i'm just saying i agree with the quote of his someone posted here.
cslifer
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Not Yet Dr. Ag,
I really appreciate your efforts to educate, but to quote axle rose "some men you just can't reach"....I think you have found one of those. I think most of us on this board agree that science is on your side, and that getting childhood vaccines is not about rights, but about being a good parent and responsible member of society. Not getting them could have fatal implications for not only your child but other children as well. No matter how hard anyone tries they cannot refute that. Additionally I challenge them to find a fatal outcome (other than allergic reaction) resulting from the standard vaccinations that has been documented in a reputable journal.
BurnetAggie99
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I read it and there were some risk with the vaccine but the vaccine manufacturer & the CDC & FDA didn't publish those risk nor did they actually test for any long term side effects until the lawsuits came out. I'm for vaccines but its the ethical thing to study any risk both short term & long term and publish those risks. With that said they should also publish the benefits as well. That way the patient along with his doctor can make a informed decision.

Big pharma controlling the CDC & FDA is the problem I have. There is no independent body or ethical body stopping big pharma from controlling the governing bodies that approve & regulate vaccines. The consist revolving door of Directors of the CDC going to work for big pharma should at least raise some concern. Its why its become a political issue. Take Julie Gerberding for instance.

Former CDC Director Now President of Merck's Vaccine Unit

In the summer of 2011, Merck president Julie Gerberding said in a news interview that she's "very bullish on vaccines," as she recounted the various ways she helps Merck sell its products. What she didn't divulge was her motivation for leaving her job as director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)an agency charged with overseeing vaccines and drug companiesand join Merck in the first place, back in January 2010.

If you don't see the enormity of the influence her former high-level ties to the CDC can have, just consider the fact that Merck makes 14 of the 17 pediatric vaccines recommended by the CDC, and 9 of the 10 recommended for adults, and while vaccine safety advocates are trying to rein in the number of vaccines given to babies, safety concerns keep falling on deaf ears. The vaccine industry is booming, and it's become quite clear that profit potential is the driving factor behind it.

One of the reasons for this is because vaccine patents do not expire like drugs do, so each vaccine adopted for widespread use has the potential to make enormous, continuous profits for decades to come. Vaccine makers also enjoy a high degree of immunity against lawsuitsand in the case of pandemic vaccines, absolute immunityso the financial liability when something goes wrong is very low, compared to drugs.

Gerberding has a Long History of Disregard for Vaccine Safety

Joining a parade of other high-ranking government officials who pass through the revolving doors between government and Big Pharma, Gerberding left a trail of controversy behind her when she left the CDC. While a 2009 article by the Institute for Southern Studies lists a number of them, I believe they left out the most important ones, namely her misinformation campaign about the pandemic swine flu vaccine, as well as her naive stance on vaccine safety issues in general.

The CDC disseminated extremely exaggerated data on the 2009 H1N1 "pandemic" and urged almost everyone in the U.S. to take the new, untested vaccines. When questions arose, they blocked CBS's requests for samples of the swine flu cases and added obstacles to getting information. Despite the many dangers that have since been linked to the hastily developed vaccineincluding the confirmed link to narcolepsythe H1N1 vaccine is now part and parcel of the "regular" seasonal flu vaccine, although most people are completely unaware of this fact. And the CDC is now, for the first time ever, urging the seasonal flu vaccine on everyone in the country, from six months' of age until death.

Even more disturbing, the CDC withheld data on miscarriages from the H1N1 vaccines under Gerberding's lead, while insisting that pregnant women be put first in line to receive it. This was a dramatic reversal of its own recommendations. More than 3,500 post-vaccination miscarriages may have simply been ignored by the CDC.

FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
Whether parents should vaccinate their kids or not, and whether the gov't should mandate it are two entirely different issues.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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And like you said, we won't change each others mind; however, I have difficulty understanding how a reasonable person can be okay with individuals knowingly risking others health for no reason other than they just want to have the choice. In all other aspects of society, this would be illegal or would make the individual susceptible to a lawsuit. Why is this case different?
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FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
People assume the risk of getting sick by existing, and if they choose to interact with other people, those people might get them sick. If that person doesn't want to get sick, i don't care what lengths they go to to prevent it, as long as their solution isn't to go stick needles into other people against their will.
BurnetAggie99
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Also there is a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program set up by the US Government for injury from vaccines.

Now since 1989, and as of Jan. 2013; over 2.5 billion dollars have been paid out from this vaccine caused injury and death compensation fund. $2,550,640,666.73 is the current total figure paid out from this federal court system; which includes attorney fees, (paid out, win or lose the case). Since the first Vaccine Injury Compensation claims were made in 1989, 3,110 compensation payments have been made, $2,389,329,250.45 disbursed to petitioners and $94,604,103.72 paid to cover attorney's fees and other legal costs.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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By that logic you could make the argument against drunk driving or not following safety standards on cars. People assume the risk of crashing by driving. Same can be said for inadequate equipment for bungee jumping. They assumed the risk of death by jumping off a platform with only a cord attached to them.
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FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
Sticking a needle into someone against their will is a much worse offense than not getting a vaccine. It's called assault and battery, and you want to legalize it.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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It already is legalized in most states. Just not vaccination. Like the 17 year old girl refusing chemo for a cancer extremely responsive to chemo who was forced to be treated, or the unconcious individual presenting to an emergency department who has no say on their medical treatment unless explicitly stated prior to admission, and even that is debatable.
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FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
I also don't care if someone drives drunk. If they damage someone's person or property while drunk or sober, that's wrong, if they don't, then i don't care.
BurnetAggie99
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I'm out been a fun chat and I got a date with a German Hefeweissbier. I'm all for vaccines guys and there are some preservative & additive free ones out there for people who want that option. The goal is to live a long & healthy life based on what you think that might be. In my earlier post about my mom going through cancer & listening to the MD Anderson doctors, I would advise that people take care of their bodies and not put things in their bodies that can cause harm. A big start is looking at what your eating & drinking and what's in it.
FOUR THIN INCHES
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AG
Whether something is legal or not, has no bearing on whether i think it's right or wrong.
G. hirsutum Ag
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AG
By you claiming to do your own research do you mean that you purchased a lab and ran clinical double blind trials? Or do you mean that you read a collection of blogs and pamphlets put out by advocate groups?
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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quote:
Whether something is legal or not, has no bearing on whether i think it's right or wrong.
Wasn't claiming otherwise, just countering your point that sticking a needle into someone's arm without their consent is illegal, which isn't true, and happens daily.
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Iowaggie
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AG
In regards to the flu vaccine, it is hard to dig through the research.
At least, I would like to hear some criticism or support of this guy's research, because I don't just want to buy into that either.

From the British Medical Journal

quote:
Closer examination of influenza vaccine policies shows that although proponents employ the rhetoric of science, the studies underlying the policy are often of low quality, and do not substantiate officials' claims. The vaccine might be less beneficial and less safe than has been claimed, and the threat of influenza appears overstated.

quote:
no evidence exists to show that this reduction in the risk of influenza for a specific population here in the United States, among healthy adults, for example extrapolates into any reduced risk of serious complications from influenza, such as hospitalizations or deaths, among seniors.

quote:
one in every 110 children under the age of five had convulsions following vaccinations in 2009 for H1N1 influenza. Additional investigations found that the H1N1 vaccine was also associated with a spike in cases of narcolepsy among adolescents.


Also, receipt of the flu vaccine a previous season may lower the effectiveness of the current season.

What I found of interest in reading those peer-reviewed articles is the comments that appear to come from doctors on their concerns.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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I haven't read through your link, but the Cochrane Collaboration has published several studies regarding the efficacy and safety of seasonal flu vaccines. Most come to the conclusion that it is very safe; however, the efficacy is small in terms of things like working days missed, hospitalizations, and mortality. I'm of the opinion that if it has the ability to prevent a few deaths per year at minimal cost, then why not promote it? However, I am not as strongly adamant about individuals getting vaccinated for the flu as I am with things like measles and whooping cough.
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reb,
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AG
the idea of governments needing to build roads is mindbendingly moronic but for some ****ing reason it's a sacred cow for many.
Necrosis
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AG
This thread is rustling my jimmies.
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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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I would love for you to explain your position, reb. Do you think government intervention stimies technological growth? Or that private companies would have all the incentive they'd need to improve infrastructure? Or you one of those individuals that says "well, without government involvement, how would we have known that we needed roads?" It'd be nice if you'd clarify your point for once rather than hurl insults.
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reb,
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AG
nah, I'd much rather hurl insults tyvm.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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I figured
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TX AG 88
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AG
reading these vaccine threads is a lot like reading 911 truther blogs.
 
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