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Texas A&M University President M. Katherine Banks resigns

July 21, 2023
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On Friday, M. Katherine Banks resigned as President of Texas A&M University just over two years after assuming that role.

The surprising announcement comes after Kathleen O. McElroy, who was hired in June to direct Texas A&M’s journalism department, walked away from the position.

On Wednesday, Banks met with the Texas A&M Faculty Senate to discuss the controversy involving McElroy’s resignation.

“I will say it has been a difficult week for Texas A&M. I’m saddened by the negative attention that we’ve received. It’s been detrimental to our shared goals and vision,” Banks said.

“It’s embarrassing. I take responsibility for it as I should, as the president of the university,” Banks added.

Banks was Texas A&M’s Dean of the College of Engineering before taking over as president on June 1, 2021.

Chancellor John Sharp has announced that General (Ret.) Mark A. Welsh III will serve as Texas A&M University’s Interim President. Welsh had previously been the Dean of the Bush School of Government and Public Service since August 2016.

Welsh becomes the eighth Texas A&M President — in a full-time or interim capacity — since Robert M. Gates left the position to serve as Secretary of Defense of the United States in December 2006.

The following is a press release from the Texas A&M University System:
 

Chancellor John Sharp today announced Dean Mark A. Welsh III as acting President after Texas A&M University President M. Katherine Banks submitted a letter late Thursday announcing she would retire immediately.

The announcement comes after the Faculty Senate passed a resolution Wednesday to create a fact-finding committee into the mishandling of the hiring of Dr. Kathleen McElroy, a University of Texas professor, former New York Times journalist and graduate of Texas A&M University, class of 1981.

In June, the university announced the hiring of McElroy to revive the school’s journalism program, but that fell apart as the details of the job offer changed from a position with the possibility of tenure to a one-year professor of practice appointment, with the option to renew.

At the Faculty Senate meeting Wednesday, President Banks denied knowing about the changes in the job offer but took responsibility for a flawed hiring process after a wave of national publicity suggesting McElroy, who has done research on diversity and inclusion, was a victim of “anti-woke” hysteria and outside interference in the faculty hiring process.

Public universities in Texas are in the middle of eliminating offices of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion to comply with recent state legislation.

In her resignation letter to Chancellor Sharp, President Banks wrote, “The recent challenges regarding Dr. McElroy have made it clear to me that I must retire immediately. The negative press is a distraction from the wonderful work being done here.”

Two years ago, Dr. Banks became the 26th President of Texas A&M University after a decade of excellence as Vice Chancellor and Dean of Engineering at the university. She led efforts for the Texas A&M System to become the only university in Texas to help manage a national weapons lab, the Los Alamos National Laboratory; created EnMed, a program training engineers to become medical doctors; and oversaw dramatic enrollment growth at the nation’s largest engineering school.

Chancellor Sharp thanked Dr. Banks for her years of service and named Welsh as acting president until a national search can find Dr. Banks’ successor.

Welsh, a retired Air Force general, is the Dean of the Bush School of Government and Public Service.

President Kathy Banks’ Resignation Letter

Chancellor,

First, thank you for the opportunity to serve at this wonderful university. It has been an honor of a lifetime.

The recent challenges regarding Dr. McElroy have made it clear to me that I must retire immediately. The negative press is a distraction from the wonderful work being done here.

I wish Texas A&M nothing but the best. It has been a privilege to serve under you.

Kathy
Discussion from...

Texas A&M University President M. Katherine Banks resigns

58,964 Views | 147 Replies | Last: 9 mo ago by Laura_Jonees
AG81
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In reply to bryanw1995 • 12:35p, 7/21/23
AG
bryanw1995 said:
AG81 said:
Houstonag said:
Well, we must move on. I would have stuck it out for she has done a great job. Personnel challenges happen as they do in the corporate world. Fix it and move on.

I hope the current leadership which means Sharp and the board does not get weak kneed over this and holds the line for DEI, etc. for it will only hurt TAMU and other educational institutions. Hold the line and do not compromise on our standards.


This wasn't about DEI. This was an Aggie committed to the Aggie core values wanting to use those as the foundation for building the Journalism department. I can guarantee, not a single person involved in the attacks on her ever had a single conversation with her. Not one. Disgusting behavior from those who claim they don't want to "compromise on our standards". They violated every single one of those standards. Either that or their standards are not Aggie standards based on Aggie values.
Do you know her? I don't, but I'm inclined to trust that an '81 Aggie would know what's important to our students more than some of the Culture Keyboard Warriors we see so often on the internet. However, I read that DEI was going to be a core building block of her program. Is that incorrect? DEI has quickly gone from a buzzword to a 4 letter word, perhaps the ground shifted under her while she was unaware, or perhaps she never said that and the comment was just speculative in nature from some of her detractors?


Yes, I know her. No one, anywhere, can anyone cite anything she's said about DEI being the foundation of the new Journalism Department. To the contrary, at the ceremony at which she signed the offer letter that was rescinded she said, "There is so much trust in A&M and the Aggie core values, and we want to position the planned new journalism degrees and program as an integral part of the Aggie brand,". That's what she was going to build the program on. This moronic adherence to a particular dogma, left or right, is what's wrong with America. It is devoid of critical thinking as demonstrated by all the "it seems like" pronouncements by so many. Again, not one critic has ever talked to her about her goals. They assumed. And they've made an ass out of themselves and A&M as a result. Most sad is they're proud of what they've done.
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Pluto88
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In reply to jrdaustin • 12:36p, 7/21/23
AG
Your bar for intelligence is pretty low. I feel bad for any Biologists you might know. if we are a first class institution, we need to act like it. It sounds like the majority don't want education at all. Then what is the point of the University? This is a **** show.
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TexasRebel
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In reply to ironmanag • 12:40p, 7/21/23
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ironmanag said:
A collective cheer just went up through out tbe BCS area. I don't know if there has been a more reviled president ever.

The damage this moron did to A&M will take decades to fix.


Wasn't there one named after a car?
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AG81
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In reply to p8aggie • 12:41p, 7/21/23
AG
p8aggie said:
jrdaustin said:
AG81 said:
Houstonag said:
Well, we must move on. I would have stuck it out for she has done a great job. Personnel challenges happen as they do in the corporate world. Fix it and move on.

I hope the current leadership which means Sharp and the board does not get weak kneed over this and holds the line for DEI, etc. for it will only hurt TAMU and other educational institutions. Hold the line and do not compromise on our standards.
This wasn't about DEI. This was an Aggie committed to the Aggie core values wanting to use those as the foundation for building the Journalism department. I can guarantee, not a single person involved in the attacks on her ever had a single conversation with her. Not one. Disgusting behavior from those who claim they don't want to "compromise on our standards". They violated every single one of those standards. Either that or their standards are not Aggie standards based on Aggie values.
Interesting statement on your part. Have you spoken to her? She had previously indicated in multiple interviews that DEI had a foundational impact on her view of "responsible journalism". Had her views changed?

How do you square Aggie core values with the following statement?
"We can't just give people a set of facts anymore. I think we know that and we have to tell our students that. This is not about getting two sides of a story or 3 sides of a story, if one side is illegitimate. I think now you cannot cover education, you cannot cover criminal justice, you can't cover all of these institutions without recognizing how all these institutions were built." McElroy said in an NPR radio segment on the role of journalists.

I'll repeat what I said in an earlier thread:
What we see in MSM video and print media today is that ethics has morphed into ideology when it comes to reporting the news. Ms. McElroy is a prime example where the current crop of journalists feel that they have a 'moral' obligation to determine "their" truth when it comes to reporting. Reporting of facts comes second to distribution of the determined narrative. Imo, that is at the base of her comment regarding "three truths". This is a relatively new mindset, and it was taught.
For this country to survive, this mindset must change. Journalism must return to its roots. THAT is why A&M needs a Journalism department that is unlike those that have been compromised by this "new" thinking.

You're free to enlighten us as to how Ms. McElroy would have served to reverse the current trend of journalism that has moved from informing public opinion to reshaping public opinion. As for me, her prior statements indicate that she would have done nothing but increase that trend. Ms. McElroy plainly indicated her intent to be an arbiter of what was "legitimate" and worth reporting. And how is that an Aggie value?

So good some of you should read it twice. It's a good thing McElroy is not leading anything at Texas A&M.


No, that is your inference. That you don't know the difference makes it clear you're the problem. You seem to ignore the first thing she said there, "We can't just give a set of facts anymore. I think we know that and have to tell our students that". You have inferred her meaning to match your bias..... without taking to her. That demonstrates a lack of Respect, Integrity, and Loyalty.
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arontc09
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 12:42p, 7/21/23
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barbacoa taco said:
Goodbye and good riddance. Maybe the next president will actually work for the best interest of the students.
Probably not as long as the same people are making hiring decisions.
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OldNewAg
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In reply to redjalapeno-87 • 12:49p, 7/21/23
Where did she say that? Source?
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AG81
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In reply to OutdoorAg • 12:56p, 7/21/23
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OutdoorAg said:
Why are we trying to revive a journalism department? Unbiased journalism is dead. Just look how the press is running cover for Biden. Never trust a thing a journalist says. They are worse than a used car salesman.


This is a legitimate question. That said, anyone who believes journalism has ever been without bias is naive, at best. Journalism has ALWAYS been biased. Ironically, these same journalists are so committed to "unconscious bias" on race issues can't seem to see an "unconscious bias" in their own reporting on everything else.
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to arontc09 • 1:00p, 7/21/23
AG
arontc09 said:
barbacoa taco said:
Goodbye and good riddance. Maybe the next president will actually work for the best interest of the students.
Probably not as long as the same people are making hiring decisions.
True. Confidence in university leadership is very low right now thanks to the influence of these powerful alumni groups. It's going to take years to clean up the mess they created, and it's going to be difficult to attract top talent to Texas A&M for years to come as well. Understandably so.
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TyperWoods
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1:17p, 7/21/23
Thank you for your service.

Don't know but you seem too woke for me.

Don't know the details on the reported racist Journalism head that was almost hired, but glad that failed, and how it went down was embarassing.

Bye!
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Cojack
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1:35p, 7/21/23
Go woke get broke!
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Thymes
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In reply to TAMU74 • 2:01p, 7/21/23
TAMU74 said:
Someone refresh my memory on something please.
I thought the journalism department had been dissolved many years ago.
Am I correct on that?
If so, why was the department being resurrected? For what purpose?
Yes, journalism had been dissolved many years ago because it had become a department of last resort (among others) for undergraduate students who couldn't make it in the science and mathematics heavy curriculum of so many A&M majors.

You've heard the old adage: What do you call engineering calculus? Pre-business.
What do you call business calculus? Pre-communications.

The university didn't take the old J-school seriously. It had stopped recruiting distinguished faculty. It was a dumping ground for the academically challenged whose only goal was to earn the Aggie Ring and join the good-ole-boy Aggie Network. Yes, they eventually graduated, but few went on to practice journalism.

Dr. Gates pledged to clean out the dead wood and bring back a new journalism school with a rigorous curriculum (foreign languages, etc.) that would make Aggie journalists competitive out there in the media world. Comprehensive universities usually include top-notch journalism instruction among their milieu of instruction, just as they have law schools, med schools, business schools, etc.

But duty called for Dr. Gates, who was summoned to Washington to straighten out George W. Bush's mess in Iraq War II, as defense secretary. Nobody got around to bringing back journalism until now.
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SanAntoneAg
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2:02p, 7/21/23
AG
Based on some of the comments here, it's apparent that some posters have been living under rocks for the past few weeks. I'll go out on a limb and surmise it's been longer than that.
Gig 'em! '90
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Charlie 31
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In reply to Aggie_Journalist • 2:13p, 7/21/23
AG
Aggie_Journalist said:
100%

It's going to get harder and harder to recruit and retain top notch faculty and staff when we look like a clown show like this. The prestige of A&M and the value of its degrees will fall victim to conservative cancel culture.
Cancel culture was the tool of liberals in 2020, partly in response to their hatred of President Donald Trump and the George Floyd murder. At first, the cancel culture effort of 2020 was focused on removing Trump from political office and bringing forth police reforms. After Trump was unelected and police reforms were enacted in many American cities, the liberal cancel culture crowd had accomplished its original goals, but then decided to push an agenda that was so far-left that most moderate Americans finally got fed up and joined conservative Americans to push back and stop those proposed and actual policies.

What you call "conservative cancel culture" is what I interpret as moderate Americans joining conservative Americans to say to the liberal cancel culture crowd, "Enough is enough." What you deem as Aggie "conservative cancel culture" is simply moderates and conservatives who want to ensure our children get an excellent college education at Texas A&M University, and who also do not, as you assert, pose a threat to the prestige of Texas A&M or its Aggie degree programs.

Gig 'em!

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greg.w.h
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In reply to Pluto88 • 2:16p, 7/21/23
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Pluto88 said:
How many of us are Journalism majors that can speak intelligently on this topic? ... Oh wait, NVM.
I'm a journalist when I write here. I source information diligently, occasionally lead with news from multiple sources and encourage boisterous, free speech discussions. Don't promote disinformation or division though I am an equal opportunity offender. I probably had higher entrance exam scores than many journalism majors. Does that count?
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W
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In reply to Aggie_Journalist • 2:31p, 7/21/23
AG
Aggie_Journalist said:
100%

It's going to get harder and harder to recruit and retain top notch faculty and staff when we look like a clown show like this. The prestige of A&M and the value of its degrees will fall victim to conservative cancel culture.
this is false

you recruit faculty just like you recruit football players

one of my grad professors came to A&M from Michigan State...and he flat out said it was because A&M offered him a higher salary

another one came to A&M from Harvard. Faculty have bills to pay too
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bryanw1995
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In reply to OutdoorAg • 2:51p, 7/21/23
AG
OutdoorAg said:
Why are we trying to revive a journalism department? Unbiased journalism is dead. Just look how the press is running cover for Biden. Never trust a thing a journalist says. They are worse than a used car salesman.
As a former Used Car Salesman, I take offense to being compared to Journalists.
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Maroon Flash
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2:51p, 7/21/23
AG
Bowtie would never have allowed tu into the SEC without one helluva fight.

Miss him!
Maroon Flash
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bryanw1995
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In reply to Charlie 31 • 2:53p, 7/21/23
AG
Charlie 31 said:
Aggie_Journalist said:
100%

It's going to get harder and harder to recruit and retain top notch faculty and staff when we look like a clown show like this. The prestige of A&M and the value of its degrees will fall victim to conservative cancel culture.
Cancel culture was the tool of liberals in 2020, partly in response to their hatred of President Donald Trump and the George Floyd murder. At first, the cancel culture effort of 2020 was focused on removing Trump from political office and bringing forth police reforms. After Trump was unelected and police reforms were enacted in many American cities, the liberal cancel culture crowd had accomplished its original goals, but then decided to push an agenda that was so far-left that most moderate Americans finally got fed up and joined conservative Americans to push back and stop those proposed and actual policies.

What you call "conservative cancel culture" is what I interpret as moderate Americans joining conservative Americans to say to the liberal cancel culture crowd, "Enough is enough." What you deem as Aggie "conservative cancel culture" is simply moderates and conservatives who want to ensure our children get an excellent college education at Texas A&M University, and who also do not, as you assert, pose a threat to the prestige of Texas A&M or its Aggie degree programs.

Gig 'em!

Well said.
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bryanw1995
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In reply to Maroon Flash • 2:54p, 7/21/23
AG
Maroon Flash said:
Bowtie would never have allowed tu into the SEC without one helluva fight.

Miss him!
That was a BoR decision, they voted 8-1 in favor.
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mitchdpm
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In reply to AG81 • 3:46p, 7/21/23
AG
AG81 said:
bryanw1995 said:
AG81 said:
Houstonag said:
Well, we must move on. I would have stuck it out for she has done a great job. Personnel challenges happen as they do in the corporate world. Fix it and move on.

I hope the current leadership which means Sharp and the board does not get weak kneed over this and holds the line for DEI, etc. for it will only hurt TAMU and other educational institutions. Hold the line and do not compromise on our standards.


This wasn't about DEI. This was an Aggie committed to the Aggie core values wanting to use those as the foundation for building the Journalism department. I can guarantee, not a single person involved in the attacks on her ever had a single conversation with her. Not one. Disgusting behavior from those who claim they don't want to "compromise on our standards". They violated every single one of those standards. Either that or their standards are not Aggie standards based on Aggie values.
Do you know her? I don't, but I'm inclined to trust that an '81 Aggie would know what's important to our students more than some of the Culture Keyboard Warriors we see so often on the internet. However, I read that DEI was going to be a core building block of her program. Is that incorrect? DEI has quickly gone from a buzzword to a 4 letter word, perhaps the ground shifted under her while she was unaware, or perhaps she never said that and the comment was just speculative in nature from some of her detractors?


Yes, I know her. No one, anywhere, can anyone cite anything she's said about DEI being the foundation of the new Journalism Department. To the contrary, at the ceremony at which she signed the offer letter that was rescinded she said, "There is so much trust in A&M and the Aggie core values, and we want to position the planned new journalism degrees and program as an integral part of the Aggie brand,". That's what she was going to build the program on. This moronic adherence to a particular dogma, left or right, is what's wrong with America. It is devoid of critical thinking as demonstrated by all the "it seems like" pronouncements by so many. Again, not one critic has ever talked to her about her goals. They assumed. And they've made an ass out of themselves and A&M as a result. Most sad is they're proud of what they've done.


"Yes I know her…" I believe this might be why your bias is showing. Like most modern-day journalists, you are spinning sound bites for and against your opinion. Blah, blah, blah. Everyone do your own research and form your own opinions. President is now gone and so is the woke journo department lady. Bye.
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AG81
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In reply to bryanw1995 • 3:50p, 7/21/23
AG
bryanw1995 said:
Charlie 31 said:
Aggie_Journalist said:
100%

It's going to get harder and harder to recruit and retain top notch faculty and staff when we look like a clown show like this. The prestige of A&M and the value of its degrees will fall victim to conservative cancel culture.
Cancel culture was the tool of liberals in 2020, partly in response to their hatred of President Donald Trump and the George Floyd murder. At first, the cancel culture effort of 2020 was focused on removing Trump from political office and bringing forth police reforms. After Trump was unelected and police reforms were enacted in many American cities, the liberal cancel culture crowd had accomplished its original goals, but then decided to push an agenda that was so far-left that most moderate Americans finally got fed up and joined conservative Americans to push back and stop those proposed and actual policies.

What you call "conservative cancel culture" is what I interpret as moderate Americans joining conservative Americans to say to the liberal cancel culture crowd, "Enough is enough." What you deem as Aggie "conservative cancel culture" is simply moderates and conservatives who want to ensure our children get an excellent college education at Texas A&M University, and who also do not, as you assert, pose a threat to the prestige of Texas A&M or its Aggie degree programs.

Gig 'em!

Well said.


Another idiot who believes you "protect" freedom of speech by silencing that with which they disagree. This is what's wrong with America. For what is it's worth, the basis of academic freedom is the 1st Amendment. I'm not remotely afraid of my children hearing views different than those with which they were raised. I've put 4 through A&M. They're all more successful than I was at their age, their education was better. Challenging them requires critical thought. The "cancel culture", left and right, is the result of the failure, or incapacity, of critical thought. So glad to be able to identify them, so thank you.
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TheBeagle90
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In reply to AG81 • 4:18p, 7/21/23
1) Don't believe everything you read in The New York Times. Which underscores the importance of teaching ethical journalism and investigative reporting rather than bias and narratives.The Rudder Association (TRA) neither effected McElroy's hire nor Bank's resignation.
2) There was no Rudder Association when Joe Ramirez was appointed Commandant in 2010 as it was founded just 3 years ago.
3) We think all Aggies should be proud of the great job Joe is doing in his current position.
4) We don't speak for General Rudder on current events nor do we believe should anyone other than his immediate family. James Earl Rudder Jr's statement regarding the important work of TheRudderAssociation.org is on our website as are our press releases reviewing the recent important events.
The Beagle '90
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S.A. Aggie
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5:08p, 7/21/23
AG
Sounds like she was WOKE. Well good riddance.
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TAMU74
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In reply to bryanw1995 • 5:09p, 7/21/23
AG
bryanw1995 said:
OutdoorAg said:
Why are we trying to revive a journalism department? Unbiased journalism is dead. Just look how the press is running cover for Biden. Never trust a thing a journalist says. They are worse than a used car salesman.
As a former Used Car Salesman, I take offense to being compared to Journalists.
I was wondering how long it would take a Used Car Salesman. to respond.
Well done sir.

This ongoing discussion regarding jouralism reminds me of an interview Joe Namath had many years ago.
I don't recall if it was pre or post Super Bowl lll, but it went something like this...
Interviewing journalist: Say Joe, what did you get your degree in at Alabama? Basket weaving?
Namath: No. Something easy...Journalism.
What a great comeback.
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murphyag
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In reply to 12Power • 5:36p, 7/21/23
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12Power said:
Banks was way better than that woke leftist before her who had zero Aggie values and did more damage than good to TAMU. This journalism hire bs is unclear to me. Although McElroy was a former student, she seemed to be a hire that I thought would continue down the DEI / woke path and demise of the university.


What makes you think that about McElroy? Do you know her? Or worked with her? Or read any of her published works? I don't know anything about the lady, so I'm just curious.
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murphyag
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In reply to TheBeagle90 • 5:37p, 7/21/23
AG
TheBeagle90 said:
1) Don't believe everything you read in The New York Times. Which underscores the importance of teaching ethical journalism and investigative reporting rather than bias and narratives.The Rudder Association (TRA) neither effected McElroy's hire nor Bank's resignation.
2) There was no Rudder Association when Joe Ramirez was appointed Commandant in 2010 as it was founded just 3 years ago.
3) We think all Aggies should be proud of the great job Joe is doing in his current position.
4) We don't speak for General Rudder on current events nor do we believe should anyone other than his immediate family. James Earl Rudder Jr's statement regarding the important work of TheRudderAssociation.org is on our website as are our press releases reviewing the recent important events.


Where can I find a list of the names of the members of the Rudder Association? I'm curious who all is a member of this club.
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The Agly Duckling
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6:02p, 7/21/23
I thought she was doing a really good job. It's noteworthy that she spoke to the BOR before she issued her resignation. That makes me think it's possible that she didn't hear what she may have thought would have been appropriate, and chose to resign after that. I intuit that she may have also thought all of that out beforehand.

As I posted on another thread about his situation, it seems we may be dropping the ball on this event from the very top levels of our institution.

If the allegations are true, we can't treat people this way:

Excellence
Integrity
Leadership
Loyalty
Respect
Selfless Service

By my count, we may have violated 5 of the 6 values above. If so, it's not acceptable, and I'm not sure Banks should've been the one resigning.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to AG81 • 6:10p, 7/21/23
AG
Opposing views that create tension, can be a good thing:

"Enlarge the place of your tent, stretch your tent curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes." - Is 54:2

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Aggie1188
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In reply to aggies1960 • 6:10p, 7/21/23
aggies1960 said:
Was she the one who attempted to hire the super liberal who'd been cranking out left wing journalists in Austin or was it someone else?
they seem to crank out pro-Sip journalists more than anything.
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Aggie1188
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In reply to S.A. Aggie • 6:12p, 7/21/23
S.A. Aggie said:
Sounds like she was WOKE. Well good riddance.
people laugh at your type more than ever tho. Lol
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West Point Aggie
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6:16p, 7/21/23
AG
A&M will be fine…an institution stronger than any one president/administrator…hope they hire a STEM/research savvy type…that's the future of academia
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JROD9398
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In reply to AG81 • 6:16p, 7/21/23
Still cannot quite figure you out Ag81....

I agree with Charlie 31. There almost seems to be a push "to believe" a liberal agenda or ideology on our campuses and to think differently results in condescension from academia if not worse. Maybe that's where your comment on "critical thinking" comes into play. Basically, we cannot sit down anymore and have a discussion with differing viewpoints without keyboard warriors or being shouted down for a different viewpoint. The media does not make this any easier. So, moderate conservatives like myself have said "It's enough".

I'll go a step further. I've always thought that liberals were supposed to be "open-minded". That doesn't mean you have to accept or agree with my beliefs but at least listen and withhold judgment and even offer their viewpoint.

If anything, liberals, who seem to make up a large part of academia, have outed themselves as blatant hypocrites.

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MaroonStain
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7:24p, 7/21/23
AG
Six weeks from football and this thread in The Zoo is hemorrhaging and hem-hawwing over a bureaucrat retiring. Next in line...
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txagman1998
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In reply to murphyag • 7:30p, 7/21/23
AG
Quote:
Where can I find a list of the names of the members of the Rudder Association?


https://www.google.com/
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mitchdpm
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In reply to Aggie1188 • 7:41p, 7/21/23
AG
Aggie1188 said:
S.A. Aggie said:
Sounds like she was WOKE. Well good riddance.
people laugh at your type more than ever tho. Lol


People who say things like "your type" and use "tho" and "lol" are the bane of our society's existence.
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