Story Poster

The Baylor Problem: An argument Ken Starr cannot win

September 15, 2011
38,269

By Brandon Jones and Thad Norvell

Give Ken Starr credit: The Baylor President hasn't forgotten what matters to Texans, namely football and Texas. In his relentless campaign to keep Baylor in a relevant Big 12 — or in some other conference where there are piles of money — Starr has suggested that the state religion is in danger of being loaded up and shipped east. Or west. Or, God help us, anywhere but Texas.

Case in point: In his September 12 column in the Houston Chronicle, Starr laments, "the football programs of our beloved Texas institutions are about to become exported commodities, competing in different national athletic conferences."

Starr does know a thing or two about exporting and higher education. A born-and-raised Texan, Starr earned three academic degrees, all of them from east coast universities. Certainly no one should fault him for pursuing his education at those fine institutions — George Washington, Brown, and Duke — even though they are not technically Texas universities. As a young Texan, Starr made choices that seemed most beneficial to his future. No one would suggest that he did so to scorn or disregard his friends and family in the Lone Star State. He did what was best for Ken Starr because that was the purpose of his education, no matter how much he loved Texas and Texans. And he remained a Texan, no matter where he made new friends or how many decades he spent living in the Northeast.

A Texas resident once again, Starr continues to argue publicly that the imminent changes in the Big 12 will tear at the fabric of the state. Outside of Waco, his appeal is registering somewhere between flat and counterproductive for many reasons, but two stand out: It seems disingenuous; and it is illogically dismissive of the central issue for any university when it comes to conference alignment — doing what is best for the university.

Starr's personal exodus to affiliate himself with non-Texas schools aside, the campaign he and Baylor have conducted to "save Texas football" fails the smell test. Baylor criticizes Texas A&M and other Big 12 schools for being lured away by the appeal of more money yet refuses to acknowledge what everyone knows — money, not tradition or state loyalty, is clearly at the core of Baylor's present desperation.

Not sure? Sit down with a graduate of SMU, TCU, U of H or Rice and ask them how much Baylor cares about sustaining Texas football tradition. Or better yet, ask Thomas R. Powers, a longtime Baylor booster who was Chairman of Baylor's Board of Regents in 1994 when the Big 12 was being formed and Baylor was playing every political and legal card they had to squeeze their way into the new conference.

With UT, A&M and Tech mulling the Big 8's offer, Baylor bolted first, far less concerned about the effect on Texas football than they are these days. As folks wondered about tradition and what would become of the other Texas schools, Powers said, "We certainly wish those who did not receive an invitation well. I feel sure they are fine institutions and they will find a place in some other program that will be appropriate for them."

Those other options were not deemed "appropriate" for Baylor in 1994. They were not deemed appropriate for Baylor in 2010, as it spent the summer conference shuffle (that almost was) not fighting for Texas football but for a spot in the Pac-16 that almost was. Or, if you will, attempting to become one of the "beloved Texas institutions" that would "become exported commodities, competing in different national athletic conferences." The record on that is clear, with emails from powerful Baylor regent Buddy Jones disclosing Baylor's efforts both to make sure it was a "package deal" with other Big 12 schools and to "sink" Colorado's efforts to take the sixth spot in that package.

And in 2011, the mantra in Waco is that they still belong with the big boys. Texas tradition demands it, we're told, and Baylor deserves it. We'll evaluate that suggestion momentarily.

Solemn agreements

TexAgs Beebe and the Big 12's Board of Directors themselves consented to A&M's exit, ultimately seeing the school's intent to exit respectfully and according to its agreement. {"Module":"photo","Alignment":"right","Size":"large","Caption":"Beebe and the Big 12\u0027s Board of Directors themselves consented to A&M\u0027s exit, ultimately seeing the school\u0027s intent to exit respectfully and according to its agreement.","MediaItemID":9288}

Before we consider Baylor's place at the table, Starr's chief complaint — that any exiting member is violating "solemn conference agreements signed in good faith by all current members of the Big 12 Conference," which Starr cites as "the heart of [Baylor's] concern" — merits some closer examination. Texas A&M maintains that it has not signed any agreement with the Big 12 since the departures of Nebraska and Colorado (or for some time prior), a claim Starr has failed to counter with anything but vague notions of solemn agreements.

Texas A&M did sign, years ago, the Big 12 Conference Bylaws. Those bylaws clearly specify the "liquidated damages" a member institution must pay if departing before the end of a specified term. On August 24, A&M President Bowen Loftin requested clarification from the Big 12 Board of Directors regarding the proper procedures should A&M choose to withdraw from the conference. Loftin wrote, in part, "If Texas A&M withdraws from the Conference, we want to do so in a way that complies with the bylaws and is supportive of your efforts to seek a new member of the Conference. We would appreciate your conferring with the other member institutions and outlining for us the process to be followed by Texas A&M should it withdraw from the Conference."

In a letter obtained by TexAgs.com dated August 28, Big 12 Commissioner Dan Beebe replied to Loftin on behalf of the Board (which includes Starr) indicating, "Under Section 3.3 of the Bylaws, if any member '...gives notice or otherwise states its intent to so withdraw, resign, or cease to participate in the future' as of a date that is earlier than June 30, 2016, then the financial provisions of Section 3.3 of the bylaws will apply." In other words, Section 3.3 of the Big 12 bylaws — the solemn agreement each member school has signed — anticipates the possibility of a member withdrawing and provides guidelines for that event. Solemn, agreed-upon guidelines.

Beebe's letter goes on to state that, "If Texas A&M makes the decision to notify the Conference that it is withdrawing from the Conference, then your fellow Directors have indicated their strong desire to engage with you in a process of ending that relationship as amicably as possible. In such event, they are willing to engage in a dialogue with you to explore the parameters of a mutually-agreeable agreement on the terms and conditions of Texas A&M's withdrawal from the Conference considering all relevant facts and circumstances, which could include discussion of mutual waivers of legal claims (emphasis ours). We would be prepared to commence and hopefully successfully conclude these negotiations as expeditiously as possible after receipt of your notice of withdrawal."

It is well documented that five days later Beebe notified SEC Commissioner Mike Slive that the Big 12 Board of Directors had "unanimously authorized" him to convey to Slive "that the Big 12 and its members" (emphasis ours) would not take any legal action against the SEC or SEC member schools as a result of A&M's decision. The August 28 letter is an interesting new piece to the legal waiver puzzle, as it further unravels the suggestion made by Beebe after Baylor backtracked that his September 2 letter was the result of confusion.

The chronology is clear. As of August 28, all members, including Starr and Baylor, had discussed the exit procedures for A&M — including the possibility of legal waivers. By September 2, those members had unanimously authorized Beebe to assure Slive and his twelve SEC institutions that all Big 12 members, including Starr and Baylor, would, in fact, waive their right to legal claims beyond the parameters of Section 3.3 of the Big 12 Bylaws. Apparently for Ken Starr that agreement was something less than solemn, a relevant fact given Starr’s ongoing pious posturing regarding the "heart" of Baylor's concern. The catch, of course, is that Baylor signed no such agreement, leaving Beebe to backpedal and suggest the September 2 letter represented a miscommunication.

SI.com Starr has been working overtime to stall A&M’s move to the SEC. {"Module":"photo","Alignment":"left","Size":"large","Caption":"Starr has been working overtime to stall A&M’s move to the SEC.","MediaItemID":10301}

So we can assume only that the lack of a signature is the justification for Baylor's reversal of field. And that's fine. It simply further nullifies Starr's assertion that A&M is violating any "solemn agreements." A&M signed bylaws that:

- anticipate a premature departure,

- guided the premature departures of Nebraska and Colorado, and

- Beebe and the Big 12 Board of Directors cited on August 28 as the proper guide for A&M's departure.

A&M is doing exactly what it solemnly agreed to do — following the procedures in the Big 12 Bylaws for a premature exit under the oversight of the Big 12 Board of Directors. And despite Beebe's assurance that the Board desired to chart a course for A&M's withdrawal that was quick and amicable, it appears that too was an agreement Starr determined to be less than solemn. (Note to future Baylor conferencemates dealing with Ken Starr: Make it solemn. Get it signed.)

A place that will be appropriate for them

The legal talk eventually bores many of us, and even an accomplished attorney like Starr knows that. That's why he continues to appeal to the tradition and history of Texas football in his efforts to salvage the Big 12. And that would be fine — perhaps even effective — if the institution he leads had made itself a meaningful part of that tradition since being given that opportunity the last time progress trumped history in Texas conference alignment.

In 15 years of playing in the Big 12, Baylor has won 18 conference football games. Of their 45 games against Texas schools in the Big 12, the self-appointed guardians of Texas football have won exactly four. In 11 of those 15 seasons Baylor has won no more than one Big 12 game, four times finishing 0-8. Baylor has never beaten two Texas Big 12 teams in one season, never finished better than .500 in conference and has had exactly one season over .500 overall — a 7-6 record in 2010.

Perhaps Baylor's campaign to save Texas and Big 12 football should have begun in 1996 when it started playing Big 12 football games. Instead it is being waged with threats of lawsuits, newspapers columns, and trips to D.C., not on the football field.

Sure, some will say this is about more than football. We simply defer to Mr. Starr and Baylor's Don't Mess with Texas™ Football Rise Up for Texas Football campaign. The other sports matter, yes. They just don’t matter the same, and everyone knows it.

It also is fascinating that Starr is trying to inspire the state of Texas and the Big 12 to do what he cannot get his own fan base to do when it counts — support Baylor football in a manner appropriate for a Big 12 program. Baylor has averaged fewer than 36,000 fans per game over the last seven seasons, infamously covering 4,000 seats with a tarp to make the 50,000 seat Floyd Casey Stadium appear less empty.

This season, with all indications that Baylor is fielding its best team in two decades, the excitement of a Heisman hopeful in quarterback Robert Griffin and the need to show it belongs in an elite conference more pressing than ever, the script seems unchanged even still. A season-opening nationally televised matchup against a ranked TCU team (who one assumes brought some fans of their own from nearby Ft. Worth) drew only 43,753 — the smallest crowd for any Big 12 home opener — and failed to displace the tarp.

Andrew Kilzer, TexAgs Head coach Art Briles trying to get the Baylor program back on track. {"Module":"photo","Alignment":"right","Size":"large","Caption":"Head coach Art Briles trying to get the Baylor program back on track.","MediaItemID":2765}

And that's at home. Ticket sales for away games — even nearby games against hated opponents like A&M — are painfully low. Paul Meyerberg has a helpful summary of that situation here, but we will refrain from rehashing the details.

The truth is unavoidable. Baylor has spent 15 seasons on the favorable end of a very unbalanced relationship between itself and the Big 12 conference. In the last dozen years, Baylor's share of an almost $400 million pool of conference bowl payouts has exceeded $30 million. Their total contribution to that pot over the life of the Big 12 is less than $800,000, the result of their 2010 Texas Bowl appearance. In other words, Baylor has accounted for roughly 0.2 percent of Big 12 bowl earnings while receiving a full member share each year.

Baylor is not a bad school, and it does not have to be a bad football program. Perhaps if they had joined TCU and the others in 1994 and found a conference more appropriate for them, the last 15 years of Baylor football would be more compelling. What it would not be is more lucrative. And that's the point.

This is not about Texas tradition, preserving rivalries, or the fabric of the state. It is about money, not just for Texas A&M or the University of Oklahoma, but for everyone.

Including and especially Baylor.

The goal — in 1994, 2010, and 2011 — was and is to keep Baylor tethered to schools from whom it derives immense financial benefit. Perhaps Mr. Starr's many years elsewhere caused him to forget, but in Texas that kind of relationship — and brazen desperation to cling to it at all costs — is often described as positioning oneself at the furthest removed feeding quadrant. Or something like that.

Baylor is trying to do what's best for Baylor. We get it, and frankly we don't blame them for that. What we do object to is the hypocritical suggestion that other Big 12 members are substandard Texans and promise-breakers, particularly given both Starr's and Baylor's long-standing record in both areas. And try as he may, Starr cannot maintain the illusion of noble Texas patriot while demanding a permanently endowed chair at a table that has fed his family well for 15 years despite their inability to contribute to the grocery budget.

The jig is up, Judge Starr. You can hire every lawyer and lobby every Senator from Waco to Washington D.C. and it will not change the truth. Baylor is a "fine institution" that needs to find a conference "that will be appropriate for them."

Discussion from...

The Baylor Problem: An argument Ken Starr cannot win

28,800 Views | 82 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by ArmyDoc
aggie_2001_2005
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Just read this. PWNED.

Well done, Brandon.
joeaggie8888
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AG
Great article!
Adam87inSA
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AG
Baylor folks will have no answer to the "Solemn agreements" section of this piece, because it is spot on the money irrefutable.

They can quibble about what the first few paragraphs have to do with anything (other than justifiably embarrassing Star). They can quibble about the truth hurts facts in the last section that details the staggering amount of unearned millions that they have gravy-trained at the Big XII's expense and the pathetic lack of support by the fans of their program.

But the real substance of the article is the middle. It goes straight to the heart of Starr's argument and eviscerates it.

The sooner these facts hit the general press, the better off we are.
TRIDENT
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AG
Well done.







Smash Williams
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AG
Solid article
Sabreman
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AG
Excellent writeup.

It's doubly ironic that Baylor's machinations are directly responsible for Colorado leaving for the Pac, thus further destabilizing the Big 12. Had Baylor not launched their full-court press to supplant the Buffs out west, the Big 12 would likely have 11 members today and be looking at adding BYU or Air Force or Louisville to return to 12, rather than breaking up and scattering to the four winds.

They are their own worst enemy.

Sabreman '92



Agsuffering@bulaw
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The article hits hard and accurate! Its really a shame it came to this, but baylor should have just let us go.
Baylor Guy from CS
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Couple of comments:

1. This guy is 100% correct that Starr is way off base when he accuses TAMU of leaving for more money. Yes it will suck to lose the Texas rivalries but to criticized TAMU for leaving for more money is just talking out of both sides of his mouth. Money is obviously a key aspect in all of this for all programs. Rivalries plays a decent but not as large of a part as well.

2. Misconception is that Baylor has taken any action against TAMU or the SEC to prevent the Aggies from getting into the conference. Keep in mind that Baylor has never threatened to sue anyone. And Baylor will have no legal right to sue the aggies when they leave (exit fees). The potential claim would be against the SEC. But there has been no threat to sue.

3. Solemn agreements- my question is whether TAMU or the Big 12 as an organization signed the TV contract with Fox for 1.2 billion. Starr didn't say that TAMU signed new by-laws. I would assume that each member of the big 12 would have to consent to the TV deal. If so, then this agreement would be terminated when TAMU leaves (I assume). I think there was a write-up on ESPN yesterday where Iowa State's president was talking about their reliance upon the new TV contracts and future money for some of the debt that they have recently incurred. That is the big legal issue that might be looming. Again, no threat to sue and no possibility of legal action against TAMU.
Bucketrunner
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It's actually really simple. If your former students don't donate enough to fund your projects, and you have no other plans for financing, DON'T PLAN BUILDING PROJECTS.
aggiebylegacy
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Brandon: While I am not a former student, I would like to say thank for such a tight and to the point article about A&M leaving the B12. Very well written and informative. Kudos to you, sir!
ag-bq-seventy
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AG
Baylor Guy,

Let's quit being clintonesque and not parse words. By agreeing on the 28th that all legal claims will be waved, and then calling the SEC the day they voted to say that they were withholding that "pledge" will certainly be unbderstood to be a threat. You can deny that, but it's true.

Also, the TV contract is with the B12. Period, end of statement. It doesn't matter if A&M's representative on that board agreed to it, because the representative was agreeing that it was a good contract for the CONFERENCE. The conference board acts for the conference, not the individual schools. The schools simply agree to abide by the bylaws, which we did.

Now, to show that I am not a hypocrite, my stance in the second paragraph might seem to indicate that when the letter of the 28th was sent that pledged release from potential litigation, it binds Baylor. Well, the answer is no, it doesn't. If Baylor's board did not agree to the Beebe letter than they retain their litigation rights. All I'm saying is that what Baylor did was definitely meant to be a threat and to believe otherwise is very myopic.

Baylor is just showing the kind of character and motivation that makes the b12 so toxic. We want out. Tell Ken Starr to let us go.
JeffB
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Kudos from a Mizzou fan on a well written, well reasoned piece.
WFCall73
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Who had any idea this was such a cut-and-dried issue? Thank goodness we have Brandon Jones, who runs an internet message board, to clear this up. Please forward this to the SEC Presidents and their lawyers immediately so they will drop the waiver requirement and we can all move on. Mr. Jones obviously knows better than them and Ken Starr, who was the U.S. Solicitor General (hint for you non-lawyers: to call that a "big deal" is a gross understatement) and judge on the most prestigious Court of Appeals in the country.
Baylor Guy from CS
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ag-bq,

you are telling me that the big 12 board has the exclusive authority to decide tv deals for it's members by their affiliation with the conference. I can't imagine this to be true but would love to see a source. so the big 12 negotiated, signed and authorized the lhn without any consent from UT other than their membership agreement with the big 12?

My previous reasoning was that TAMU was a party to the fox contract and consented to the specific contract. TAMU's affiliation to the contract was more than just by way of their membership in the Big 12. Hence the solemn agreement potentially referred to by Starr.

The arguments of the article are flawed by unfounded presuppositions.
ham98
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Ken Starr is guaranteeing baylro ends up in the WAC or Southland when the Big XII collapses.
S.A. Aggie
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AG
Great article!
BostonAg74
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quote:
Mr. Jones obviously knows better than them and Ken Starr, who was the U.S. Solicitor General (hint for you non-lawyers: to call that a "big deal" is a gross understatement) and judge on the most prestigious Court of Appeals in the country


Political appointees like Mr. Starr may or may not demonstrate that they worthy of such lofty positions. In most instances, they are not the best and the brightest, but simply the ones with the best connections. In Mr. Starr's case, his high profile has merely put the spotlight on what kind of person that he is, and it ain't pretty. He appears to be absolutely ruthless when pursuing his objectives, completely unencumbered by conscience. He now has his eye on the singular goal of preserving Baylor's role as the The Welfare Queen of College Football, and he does not care who or what gets destroyed in the process. He doesn't care about any school, any conference, any network or any person. He only cares about winning whatever battle he's fighting at the moment. That's why his song and dance about "preserving sacred rivalries" does not pass the smell test. It is an argument that is completely inconsistent with who Ken Starr is.
Krussian09
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AG
Good read
Bucketrunner
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Starr's scorched earth policy is going to burn baylor. Badly.
DavidAG92
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AG
+1 Giddings Buffs


[This message has been edited by DavidAG92 (edited 9/16/2011 2:42p).]
WFCall73
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quote:
Political appointees like Mr. Starr may or may not demonstrate that they worthy of such lofty positions. In most instances, they are not the best and the brightest, but simply the ones with the best connections. In Mr. Starr's case, his high profile has merely put the spotlight on what kind of person that he is, and it ain't pretty. He appears to be absolutely ruthless when pursuing his objectives, completely unencumbered by conscience. He now has his eye on the singular goal of preserving Baylor's role as the The Welfare Queen of College Football, and he does not care who or what gets destroyed in the process. He doesn't care about any school, any conference, any network or any person. He only cares about winning whatever battle he's fighting at the moment. That's why his song and dance about "preserving sacred rivalries" does not pass the smell test. It is an argument that is completely inconsistent with who Ken Starr is.


If you think that the solicitor general is a mere "political appointee" who gets the position based on who he knows, without regard to skill, you are absolutely, certifiably clueless:

"The Solicitor General, who has offices in the Supreme Court Building as well as the Department of Justice Headquarters, has been called the "tenth justice"[5] as a result of the relationship of mutual respect that inevitably develops between the justices and the Solicitor General (and their respective staffs of clerks and deputies). As the most frequent advocate before the Court, the Office of the Solicitor General generally argues dozens of times each term."

"Other than the justices themselves, the Solicitor General is among the most influential and knowledgeable members of the legal community with regard to Supreme Court litigation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Solicitor_General

In short, if you're the Solicitor General, you are a 100% certified legal bada$$. Many in the legal community would consider it the most coveted job there is -- even more coveted than a Supreme Court slot (many SCOTUS judges having truly been political picks). It's certainly the most coveted job for most appellate attorneys -- and appellate attorneys are widely considered to be the best and brightest out there. Nobody, and I mean nobody, gets that job without having genius-level intellectual horsepower. And BTW, he also has an M.A. from Brown and a J.D. from Duke. He then clerked for Chief Justice Warren Burger and worked for Gibson & Dunn. Ask anyone in the legal community whether you get a job with Gibson & Dunn without impeccable academic credential (when I was coming out of law school, I don't think they'd even interview you if you had less than a 3.8.

Of course, in spite of all of that, the consensus on texags.com is that Ken Starr is a moron. That tells you nothing about Ken Starr, but everything about the posters on this site.

Finally, just to be clear that there's no double-standard here: you, unlike Ken Starr and Baylor fans everywhere, care only about conference well-being and history. That's why you were surely against aTm being the only school to take an unequal portion of the CU-NU exit fees, and against the unequal Tier 1-Tier 2 revenue sharing arrangement -- both of which have benefited aTm at the expense of other schools and the conference as a whole. Right? Looking forward to your response on that.
Bucketrunner
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We're gone. To a good conference. You won't be. Get over it.
chipotle
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quote:
the consensus on texags.com is that Ken Starr is a moron.


I don't think he is a moron. Don't think a moron could have put the brakes on this whole thing. I think the consensus is that we would all like to punch him in the throat.
SomeDude
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Man, I had no idea that Baylor loved us this much. Come on BU... we went over this in the marriage contract when you begged us to help you migrate from mother Russia. We told you it was just a temporary relationship and that we weren't looking for a long-term committment. I know it's hard right now, but you will find other loves. Rice has been looking to hookup with someone for a while now. Have you picked up the phone and talked to them. Maybe you two could patch things up again and rekindle that old flame.

Look, if it really means that much to you, maybe we could work something out to help you move on "gradually". How about we get together for a one-nighter every year at the start of the season. Yes, we will have our way with you, but how much more will that remind you of all the good times we had together? We'll even keep it our little secret that we'll pay you to come down to Aggieland to give us a season-opening "nooner".

But please try to understand that this relationship is over. We still love you. We're just....incompatible. Don't hate us for being us. You'll find love again some day. And in the meantime, you've still got Tceh!
KC Aggie
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AG
Great article!

Please don't feed the Gaylor trolls!

"There's a force in the universe that makes things happen; all you have to do is get in touch with it. Stop thinking...let things happen...and be...the ball."

Three Step Drop
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I'm still dumbfounded as to why the focus of everyone's frustration is on Baylor. Baylor isn't the only school that is refusing to sign a waiver, there isn't a single school in the Big 12 that will sign a waiver. If the SEC didn't require such an ignorant request Baylor would be a complete non-factor.

Baylor's threat to sue is completely moot. The only thing that matters is the SEC requiring waivers from all the schools. Surprised that people are not smart enough to be upset with the SEC in all of this, because they're the only ones holding this process up.
agent-maroon
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AG
Baylor's K* was the only school president contacting SEC school presidents and threatening lawsuit if we moved to their conference and/or blew up the B12 in the process of doing so.

THAT'S why all the hate is focused on Baylor...
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fordmd
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AG
ken starr is a moron

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hisel13
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Brandon that was genius. Well written.
BostonAg74
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quote:
If you think that the solicitor general is a mere "political appointee" who gets the position based on who he knows, without regard to skill, you are absolutely, certifiably clueless:


I didn't say that. I said that a political appointee may or may not possess the skills and credentials that are worthy of his position, but the fact that he is a political appointee means that the position itself is not evidence that he is any better qualified than a hundred other people, or a thousand other people, or ten thousand other people for that matter. In the end, he got the job because he knew somebody, or in Starr's case, perhaps because he knew something about somebody.

I don't think Starr is a moron, but I do think he is something like a savant, demonstrating extraordinary skill in one area, while being shockingly clueless in others. I don't think he has a moral compass. He sees things only in legal terms. He doesn't have that filter that most people have that tells him "this is wrong". In his world, a lie is not a lie. It is part of a legal strategy.

Basically, the man can't see the forest for the trees. He is so focused on a single task that he cannot see the impact of his actions on the big picture. That was true with his Whitewater investigation, and it is true in this case. Had he simply allowed A&M to move on, the Big 12 would have quickly found a new member (probably BYU, but even SMU would have been sufficient in order to retain the value of the TV contract), and all this would have been over in a matter of a couple of weeks. What he has done, however, is to expose the Big 12 as the dysfunctional mess that it is, expose Baylor as the bottom feeding welfare queen that it is, and basically killed any chance that the Big 12 will continue or that Baylor will ever have a place at the big boys table again. A&M didn't do that. Ken Starr did.

quote:
Finally, just to be clear that there's no double-standard here: you, unlike Ken Starr and Baylor fans everywhere, care only about conference well-being and history. That's why you were surely against aTm being the only school to take an unequal portion of the CU-NU exit fees, and against the unequal Tier 1-Tier 2 revenue sharing arrangement -- both of which have benefited aTm at the expense of other schools and the conference as a whole. Right? Looking forward to your response on that.


I don't recall anyone from A&M saying we were doing this for God, country and apple pie, or anything like that. A&M has been up front about their reasons for wanting to move on. Money is one of the reasons, and they haven't denied that. From what I understand, the biggest reason is that commitments were made in order to keep A&M from going to the SEC when Texas was planning their PAC exodus, and those commitments were not kept. In fact, things have gotten worse than they were before. The Big 12 Commissioner has been openly dismissive of A&M, and appears to be taking his orders from DeLoss Dodds. A&M doesn't need to manufacture reasons for leaving. The real reasons are sufficient.

On the other hand, Baylor's smokescreen about "preserving sacred rivalries" is a load of crap and everyone knows it. Why can't they just man up and say "We don't want the Big 12 to break up because we like stealing their lunch money." ?

[This message has been edited by BostonAg74 (edited 9/17/2011 8:15a).]
ClickClack
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AG
For the Baylor people who have posted on this thread:

First off, Brandon Jones and Thad Norvell are not claiming to be more of legal gurus than Ken Starr. But this is all a last ditch effort by Ken Starr to save his own butt. He saw a chance to create a hiccup and he took that opportunity. That doesn't mean he has a case, and it's painfully obvious he doesn't. The sad part is that he's only hurting Baylor's chances. Texas A&M will not be playing in the Big 12 next year, period. Baylor would have a better chance if they weren't holding up an "expedient" process as the Big 12 desired and instead let the Big 12 move forward and try to make the conference survive without A&M.

quote:
Finally, just to be clear that there's no double-standard here: you, unlike Ken Starr and Baylor fans everywhere, care only about conference well-being and history. That's why you were surely against aTm being the only school to take an unequal portion of the CU-NU exit fees, and against the unequal Tier 1-Tier 2 revenue sharing arrangement -- both of which have benefited aTm at the expense of other schools and the conference as a whole. Right? Looking forward to your response on that.


Why are Baylor fans so blind to what's happening in the Big 12? Look, A&M got tired of Texas' games and was looking to go East last summer. When the Big 12 made one final effort to reel us back in, we wanted assurances that we could make something in the range of what we would have made in the SEC. We wanted equal revenue sharing, but that was off the table for Texas. The equal revenue sharing was not agreed upon by all, so it couldn't happen. So we worked within those boundaries.

Since then, it has become ever apparent that the Big 12 is not getting better and that Texas will do whatever they want and Beebe will let them make the rules. It was obvious last summer to most Aggies that the "new" Big 12 was a band-aid fix and would not be functional. Sorry, but A&M has a lot to offer and we're done messing around with this shamble of a conference.

Now, go back and re-read the article, Bears.
WFCall73
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quote:
I didn't say that. I said that a political appointee may or may not possess the skills and credentials that are worthy of his position, but the fact that he is a political appointee means that the position itself is not evidence that he is any better qualified than a hundred other people, or a thousand other people, or ten thousand other people for that matter. In the end, he got the job because he knew somebody, or in Starr's case, perhaps because he knew something about somebody.


You didn't? Apparently, you can't even understand your own writing. Here is what you said:

"Political appointees like Mr. Starr may or may not demonstrate that they worthy of such lofty positions. In most instances, they are not the best and the brightest, but simply the ones with the best connections."

So in most instances they're not the best and the brightest -- that's pretty easy to understand. And anyone with a third-grade education (but, apparently not, and aTm degree) should be able to see through the obvious strawman you set up there -- drawing attention to the fact that the SG is a political appointee, and ignoring the mountain of evidence (degrees, Supreme Court clerkship, position with Gibson Dunn, etc.) that Starr is a genius (and that's not hyperbole).

Finally, morality is a two way street. To you it's immoral for Baylor to throw up a "roadblock" -- even though that roadblock is perfectly legal, even though it's really the SEC's "roadblock" (since the waiver requirement is the SEC's and the SEC's alone), and even though no other Big XII school has to-date been willing to sign a waiver. To most in the country, it's immoral for aTm to turn it's back on the commitments it made to the conference and its schools -- including Baylor, which is a full and equal member of that conference (regardless of whether you deem it worthy of not) -- only a few months ago.

Finally, morality really has nothing to do with this issue. Morality is already baked into our laws (e.g., we deem it moral to require people to honr contracts, we deem it immoral to steal, etc.). Starr's legal duty -- set forth by his fiduciary duties to Baylor -- is to do what is best for his institution within the bounds of the law. Loftin's is the same. Mike Slive's is the same. If Baylor's position has no basis in the law, the aTm and the SEC have nothing to worry about, and the waiver request is meaningless. That's the point that anyone who does not have a gross aTm bias can see. The ball is in the SEC's court. Baylor is under no duty to do the SEC a favor. To the contrary, Starr would arguably violate his fiduciary duties to Baylor if he did.

Finally, the fact that you refused to answer my question on revenue sharing tells us all we need to know about your intellectual honesty on these issues.
Bucketrunner
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Why does baylor come back and back and back and continue to debate this? The dye is set; there is no point in further discussion.
ClickClack
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AG
quote:
To most in the country, it's immoral for aTm to turn it's back on the commitments it made to the conference and its schools


Delusional, just like all your cubby friends. Actually, most of the country sees your little display as completely PATHETIC. You're baylor. Bylaws were made for a reason, you unbelievable moron. We have every right to leave the conference and requested the legal way to do so. Beebe gave us those conditions and we attempted to exit under those conditions.

Go back to baylorfans with the rest of your obsessed, limp-wristed friends that make up baylor.
WFCall73
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Nice work taking my quote out of context bu cutting it off mid-sentence, you hack. And Baylor is obsessed? Every other thread on here is about Baylor -- Baylor's attendance, the tarp, Ken Starr, etc. Worse, your feature writers have posted any number of lengthy articles about Baylor (God knows how much time was spent writing them) -- INCLUDING THE ONE THAT IS THE REASON FOR THIS THREAD. If you had a clue, you could figure out that your beef is with the SEC. WHY WON'T THEY JUST DROP THE WAIVER REQUIREMENT? That's the holdup -- not Baylor nor the eight other schools who won't sign waivers.
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