Ivermectin - You Can't Tell Me It Doesn't Work

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Zobel
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In reply to snowdog90 • 10:58a, 1/11/22
AG
No one is saying ignore them. The problem is you have a big ascertainment / publishing bias. How many people had absolutely no benefit from ivermectin but did not come to TexAgs to say it? How many people had the same reaction but the other way (ivermectin folks did slightly worse)? How large was the placebo effect of taking a defined protocol of recommended meds from a trusted doc vs fluids and dayquil?

We don't know. The only way you know is by doing clinical trials.
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Petrino1
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In reply to trnrmom • 12:10p, 1/11/22
trnrmom said:
ea1060 said:
Im a 19 month covid long hauler, and ivermectin was the only medicine that relieved my daily symptoms out of the dozen or so other prescriptions/antibiotics/vitamins/medicines I took lol.
i think you and i have had some conversations in this forum: i have the ivermectin pills and am also a long hauler; how often and how much (dose-wise according to your weight) did you take ivermectin and are you completely free of symptoms? or just some symptoms? you refer to 19 mo. as a long hauler so i'm guessing you still have symptoms; i'm female, 11 mo. as long hauler and take supplements/exercise vigorously every day and try to stay away from high histamine foods; still looking for a miracle drug and would love to know more about your experience with ivermectin. thanks
Im 180 plbs and took 18mgs of Ivermectin. I followed the FLCCC dosage guidelines: I took Ivermectin for 5 days straight, then twice a week for 5 weeks. My symptoms went away on the days I took the Ivermectin but typically they would return the following day.

However, I do feel much better after completing the 5 week treatment. My symptoms dont last as long now and I have days where I dont feel any symptoms. I would recommend Ivermectin as well as Ginkgo Biloba for your vertigo symptoms.
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Petrino1
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 12:13p, 1/11/22
DannyDuberstein said:
ea1060 said:
Im a 19 month covid long hauler, and ivermectin was the only medicine that relieved my daily symptoms out of the dozen or so other prescriptions/antibiotics/vitamins/medicines I took lol.


Glad they were able to provide you some relief while risking the grave potential side effects of nausea, dizziness, diarrhea
Lol the funny thing is anytime I take an antibiotic I feel sick to my stomach, very nauseated and sharp stomach pains. I didnt experience any side effects at all from Ivermectin, not one.
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trnrmom
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In reply to Petrino1 • 1:30p, 1/11/22
ea1060 said:
trnrmom said:
ea1060 said:
Im a 19 month covid long hauler, and ivermectin was the only medicine that relieved my daily symptoms out of the dozen or so other prescriptions/antibiotics/vitamins/medicines I took lol.
i think you and i have had some conversations in this forum: i have the ivermectin pills and am also a long hauler; how often and how much (dose-wise according to your weight) did you take ivermectin and are you completely free of symptoms? or just some symptoms? you refer to 19 mo. as a long hauler so i'm guessing you still have symptoms; i'm female, 11 mo. as long hauler and take supplements/exercise vigorously every day and try to stay away from high histamine foods; still looking for a miracle drug and would love to know more about your experience with ivermectin. thanks
Im 180 plbs and took 18mgs of Ivermectin. I followed the FLCCC dosage guidelines: I took Ivermectin for 5 days straight, then twice a week for 5 weeks. My symptoms went away on the days I took the Ivermectin but typically they would return the following day.

However, I do feel much better after completing the 5 week treatment. My symptoms dont last as long now and I have days where I dont feel any symptoms. I would recommend Ivermectin as well as Ginkgo Biloba for your vertigo symptoms.
thanks for the details; now gonna consider taking it as i do have flccc guidelines according to a person's weight, etc. saw an ent for my afternoon dizziness; never get it in am and hearing test indicate i'm hearing 100% in both ears; i manage cause i don't have nausea w/the vertigo; ent wanted me to go to p.t. for balance but i'm not going to throw my $$ there as i've found some YouTubes for dizziness..ent said there's no magic pill. thx for your reply.
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agforlife97
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2:29p, 1/11/22
AG
In the latest documents released by Project Veritas, the hypothesis is that ivermectin works against Covid for two reasons (1) it inhibits viral replication and (2) it modulates the immune response to attack the spike proteins that attach to the ACE receptors. (It also noted that researchers who have researched SARS viruses have shown that HCQ, remdesivir, and interferon also work against covid for similar reasons.)
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snowdog90
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3:25p, 1/11/22
I got covid late last Thursday. I've been basically following the FLCCC guidelines on treatment, including ivermectin, and am going back to work tomorrow. I would say that for me, ivermectin worked, and I didn't need the vaccine to prevent a severe case.

Anecdotal, but a perfect result for me, as now I have natural immunity.
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VictoryLapAg
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5:42p, 1/11/22
AG
What is the FLCCC?
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snowdog90
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In reply to VictoryLapAg • 8:06p, 1/11/22
VictoryLapAg said:
What is the FLCCC?


https://covid19criticalcare.com/
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Goody
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In reply to Gordo14 • 1:45p, 1/12/22
AG
Gordo14 said:
snowdog90 said:
curry97 said:
Took Ivermectin, but still ended up in the hospital with Covid pneumonia.


Sorry that happened, that sucks. The same can be said for people who got the vaccine and ended up in the hospital. Nothing is 100%, and covid is wildly different for different people. I'm just totally against mandating the covid vaccines. Everybody should be totally free to choose how they battle covid.


Except we have an abundance of data that the vaccine is very effective at preventing hospitalization... And outside of countries with endemic parasites the data for ivermectin suggests it has no effect on hospitalization.
you need to do more research on ivermectin...

and...why does no one discuss the side effects of the vaccine? Why arent they required to be disclosed?

friend of mine's niece got the vaccine this summer and hasn't had a period since....no big deal I am sure...
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Goody
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In reply to Zobel • 1:48p, 1/12/22
AG
Zobel said:
No one is saying ignore them. The problem is you have a big ascertainment / publishing bias. How many people had absolutely no benefit from ivermectin but did not come to TexAgs to say it? How many people had the same reaction but the other way (ivermectin folks did slightly worse)? How large was the placebo effect of taking a defined protocol of recommended meds from a trusted doc vs fluids and dayquil?

We don't know. The only way you know is by doing clinical trials.
actually, a lot of people say ignore them. And why do so few doctors prescribe a treatment plan?

It is beyond ridiculous
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Layne Staley
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In reply to Zobel • 1:53p, 1/12/22
AG
Zobel said:
Ok. I was vaccinated before you - spring of this year - got covid from my grandma on Dec 26. Fully recovered within three days, and went skiing this week (snow was great, by the way). I did not take ivermectin. Looks like I saved $145. In fact since I recovered more quickly than you, maybe ivermectin made it worse?

You have no way to know the impact of ivermectin on your disease course. That's why this is not how evidence is gathered for medicine. You use controlled trials, randomized, and double-blinded. And when people do that, ivermectin doesn't help.
we know what the impact of the experimental gene therapy was for this guy. but, science. https://truthbasedmedia.com/2022/01/12/autopsy-confirms-26-year-olds-death-from-myocarditis-directly-caused-by-pfizer-covid-vaccine/
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Zobel
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In reply to Goody • 2:01p, 1/12/22
AG
Because it doesn't help.
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Petrino1
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In reply to Goody • 4:24p, 1/12/22
Goody said:
Gordo14 said:
snowdog90 said:
curry97 said:
Took Ivermectin, but still ended up in the hospital with Covid pneumonia.


Sorry that happened, that sucks. The same can be said for people who got the vaccine and ended up in the hospital. Nothing is 100%, and covid is wildly different for different people. I'm just totally against mandating the covid vaccines. Everybody should be totally free to choose how they battle covid.


Except we have an abundance of data that the vaccine is very effective at preventing hospitalization... And outside of countries with endemic parasites the data for ivermectin suggests it has no effect on hospitalization.
you need to do more research on ivermectin...

and...why does no one discuss the side effects of the vaccine? Why arent they required to be disclosed?

friend of mine's niece got the vaccine this summer and hasn't had a period since....no big deal I am sure...
Ive had 8 months of vertigo/dizzy symptoms ever since I got the 2nd pfizer shot. Whenever I tell people this they either dont believe me, or call me an anti vaxxer. I refuse to get the booster, even if it costs me my job. I think it would kill me.
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snowdog90
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In reply to Zobel • 4:41p, 1/12/22
Zobel said:
Because it doesn't help.


You're saying a treatment plan for covid doesn't help??
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Zobel
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In reply to snowdog90 • 5:37p, 1/12/22
AG
I assumed he was referring to ivermectin, which does not in fact help for covid19.*




*unless you have worms.
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Petrino1
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In reply to Zobel • 5:49p, 1/12/22
Zobel said:
I assumed he was referring to ivermectin, which does not in fact help for covid19.*




*unless you have worms.
It worked for me as a Covid Long Hauler. And I do not have worms
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petebaker
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5:51p, 1/12/22
The only way to say it don't work is to do random double blind placebo control test designed for true signals representing 100,000s cases.

dosages needed to be higher for Delta
dosing needs to be early 24-48 hours onset
duration needs to be at least 6-8 days , some lower endpoints like 5 days are not good enough

otherwise we can also infer
Indians in Uttar Pradesh
Mexicans
Africans who took it seem to be as healthy population as ever
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Zobel
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In reply to Petrino1 • 5:54p, 1/12/22
AG
As has been said multiple times, you don't actually know if it did anything for you. People bristle at the mention of the placebo effect as if to say that the placebo effect implies you're crazy. Or that psychosomatic disorders mean you're crazy. Neither is true - and I also have no idea if you're suffering from a psychosomatic order, to be clear.

The point is, from n=1 you cannot separate the placebo effect from any proposed effect of a medicine. And right now we do not have a good understanding of long covid or of some kind of compounded long covid interaction with a vaccine. So no, I don't think you can say that it worked for you with any kind of applicability to anyone else.

I think that's a point some people are missing. The whole idea behind wanting high quality evidence is to make powerful predictions as to the potential harm and benefit of a treatment on a large scale. When you say "this medicine doesn't work" what you're really saying is that there is no measurable benefit on a large scale. Could it have worked for one person? Yes, sure, why not. But you can't generalize from there. There is not predictive power from the evidence for ivermectin's benefit in treating covid19.
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Petrino1
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In reply to Zobel • 6:06p, 1/12/22
Zobel said:
As has been said multiple times, you don't actually know if it did anything for you. People bristle at the mention of the placebo effect as if to say that the placebo effect implies you're crazy. Or that psychosomatic disorders mean you're crazy. Neither is true - and I also have no idea if you're suffering from a psychosomatic order, to be clear.

The point is, from n=1 you cannot separate the placebo effect from any proposed effect of a medicine. And right now we do not have a good understanding of long covid or of some kind of compounded long covid interaction with a vaccine. So no, I don't think you can say that it worked for you with any kind of applicability to anyone else.

I think that's a point some people are missing. The whole idea behind wanting high quality evidence is to make powerful predictions as to the potential harm and benefit of a treatment on a large scale. When you say "this medicine doesn't work" what you're really saying is that there is no measurable benefit on a large scale. Could it have worked for one person? Yes, sure, why not. But you can't generalize from there. There is not predictive power from the evidence for ivermectin's benefit in treating covid19.
Ive taken ivermectin somewhere over 30 times when I was experiencing covid long haul symptoms. Almost every single time it has relieved my symptoms within 30 minutes of taking it. Ive also taken 10+ other medicines/antibiotics//vitamins/covid treatments etc and not one had the same healing effects that ivermectin had.

Why do you think that is, placebo?
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Zobel
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In reply to Petrino1 • 6:54p, 1/12/22
AG
I have no idea. Can you rule it out?

I guess I think about it this way. The placebo effect is very powerful and well documented. It's super real, we use it as the baseline to measure other thIngs. It pretty much works on everything. By comparison it doesn't look like ivermectin does very much at all against COVID.

On the other hand there are some scholarly articles about ivermectin as an autoimmune treatment. You're not infected any more, and the antigen from the vaccine is gone, so autoimmune or psychosomatic seem to be the options.

Just by the odds, it seems placebo is more likely than ivermectin having a physiological effect. But who knows? Not me.

There's a difference though between what you're doing and people - doctors - telling people to take it as a prophylactic in lieu of a vaccine, or that you don't need a vaccine even if you're at risk because it can be used as a therapeutic. That's horrible medical advice.
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snowdog90
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In reply to Zobel • 9:26p, 1/12/22
Zobel said:
I have no idea. Can you rule it out?

I guess I think about it this way. The placebo effect is very powerful and well documented. It's super real, we use it as the baseline to measure other thIngs. It pretty much works on everything. By comparison it doesn't look like ivermectin does very much at all against COVID.

On the other hand there are some scholarly articles about ivermectin as an autoimmune treatment. You're not infected any more, and the antigen from the vaccine is gone, so autoimmune or psychosomatic seem to be the options.

Just by the odds, it seems placebo is more likely than ivermectin having a physiological effect. But who knows? Not me.

There's a difference though between what you're doing and people - doctors - telling people to take it as a prophylactic in lieu of a vaccine, or that you don't need a vaccine even if you're at risk because it can be used as a therapeutic. That's horrible medical advice.


This is the arrogance typical of you. Thousands of doctors, millions of patients have successfully used ivermectin. Tons of studies show it works. EA is a well-known poster who has tried everything, but gets immediate relief from ivermectin, and you have the balls to say it doesn't work. As if you somehow know. Ridiculous.
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CSTXAg92
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In reply to Zobel • 9:31p, 1/12/22
AG
Zobel said:
Sure, I don't mind explaining what I mean. You seem to not understand how medical evidence works. The placebo effect is real, so you don't judge whether or not a medicine works based on a sample of one, or without a control group. Different people react to diseases and medicines differently, so you used randomization between the control group and the study group to even the differences out. You also try to randomize for comorbidities and other confounders between the two groups. And, for the best standard, you double-blind the study so the people running the study and the patients don't know who is getting what drugs. This is for bias and the placebo effect. You also should do a bunch of other things, like have large sample sizes to ensure you can statistically measure the effect you're looking for, and pre-register your end points to prevent p-hacking or changing end points to match results. So your experience of ivermectin working is - in medical evidence terms - completely useless. Other posters on here have the same problem. Not to mention the fact that several posters who were taking ivermectin for prophylaxis ended up getting sick, and others who took it as a therapeutic ended up having a severe course of the disease. At any rate, you had an average course of disease that would have been expected had you done nothing, so even on an anecdotal basis your evidence is not very compelling.
Thanks for your explanation of how medical evidence works Zobel.

Just curious, would you consider DARPA a legitimate organization that conducts legitimate science experiments? Or, at the very least would you acknowledge DARPA is an organization that - based on their strategic relevance - would have access to and would rely on legitimate medical science for their information and policy?

I ask because this is apparently a statement from leaked DARPA documents:

"Ivermectin (identified as curative in April 2020) works throughout all phases of illness because it both inhibits viral replication and modulates the immune response."

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/hidden-military-documents-reveal-nih-intent-create-sars-cov-2-using-gain-function-research
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Zobel
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In reply to snowdog90 • 9:32p, 1/12/22
AG
Literally said I don't know twice in that post. Not sure why a poster being well known matters, but I've been posting on this site two years longer than you, friend. If you don't get it by now why those "tons of studies" aren't very good evidence, it's because you don't want to. It's fine. Best of luck to you.
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Zobel
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In reply to CSTXAg92 • 9:34p, 1/12/22
AG
I bet if you think about it for a little while you can see the problem with appealing to the authority of leaked anonymous emails with no context or evidence.
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CSTXAg92
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In reply to Zobel • 10:11p, 1/12/22
AG
Zobel said:
I bet if you think about it for a little while you can see the problem with appealing to the authority of leaked anonymous emails with no context or evidence.
Where did you see leaked, anonymous emails? It's a 23 page military document.

As for your concern about 'no context', the subject states: "SARS-CoV-2 ORIGINS INVESTIGATION WITH US GOVERNMENT PROGRAM UNDISCLOSED DOCUMENT ANALYSIS"

Would that suffice as context for you?
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Zobel
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In reply to CSTXAg92 • 10:25p, 1/12/22
AG
Seems legit
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Wakesurfer817
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In reply to Zobel • 10:47p, 1/12/22
One day, somebody at DARPA's going to forget to log off and we'll get some legit Alien stuff. Until then, Ivermectin as the first ever cure for a respiratory virus will have to do I suppose.

I jest. But I'm pretty sure that nobody's ever figured out how to cure respiratory viral illness right? We've always been treat the symptoms, no?
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Zobel
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In reply to Wakesurfer817 • 11:01p, 1/12/22
AG
Tamiflu stops viral replication, and it works so well it reduces symptoms by about a day if you take it early…maybe. Kinda. Allegedly.
https://www.bmj.com/tamiflu
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FTAG 2000
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In reply to Zobel • 11:57a, 1/13/22
AG
Zobel said:
As has been said multiple times, you don't actually know if it did anything for you. People bristle at the mention of the placebo effect as if to say that the placebo effect implies you're crazy. Or that psychosomatic disorders mean you're crazy. Neither is true - and I also have no idea if you're suffering from a psychosomatic order, to be clear.

The point is, from n=1 you cannot separate the placebo effect from any proposed effect of a medicine. And right now we do not have a good understanding of long covid or of some kind of compounded long covid interaction with a vaccine. So no, I don't think you can say that it worked for you with any kind of applicability to anyone else.

I think that's a point some people are missing. The whole idea behind wanting high quality evidence is to make powerful predictions as to the potential harm and benefit of a treatment on a large scale. When you say "this medicine doesn't work" what you're really saying is that there is no measurable benefit on a large scale. Could it have worked for one person? Yes, sure, why not. But you can't generalize from there. There is not predictive power from the evidence for ivermectin's benefit in treating covid19.

Now do my dinner party group. 13 adults. The only three (including one high risk) who kicked it in 72 hours took ivermectin.

The other ten adults were all sick for at least two weeks.

Yeah it wasn't double blind, but it wasn't n=1.
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CSTXAg92
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In reply to Zobel • 12:38p, 1/13/22
AG
Zobel said:
Seems legit
Sarcasam noted.

Curious Zobel, what part of it makes you skeptical?
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Old McDonald
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In reply to Petrino1 • 12:50p, 1/13/22
did it really "work" if you had to take it 30 times and had your symptoms return every time? sounds like at best it offered you temporary relief from symptoms.
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hgc159
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In reply to Gordo14 • 12:53p, 1/13/22
Gordo14 said:
snowdog90 said:
curry97 said:
Took Ivermectin, but still ended up in the hospital with Covid pneumonia.


Sorry that happened, that sucks. The same can be said for people who got the vaccine and ended up in the hospital. Nothing is 100%, and covid is wildly different for different people. I'm just totally against mandating the covid vaccines. Everybody should be totally free to choose how they battle covid.


Except we have an abundance of data that the vaccine is very effective at preventing hospitalization... And outside of countries with endemic parasites the data for ivermectin suggests it has no effect on hospitalization.
That is data that supports getting the shot(s). It does not justify mandating them.
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CSTXAg92
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In reply to Old McDonald • 12:59p, 1/13/22
AG
Old McDonald said:
did it really "work" if you had to take it 30 times and had your symptoms return every time? sounds like at best it offered you temporary relief from symptoms.
Does the vaccine work, since you can catch covid over and over again, even after being vaxxed and boosted?
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Zobel
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In reply to FTAG 2000 • 1:02p, 1/13/22
AG
How many people need to be in your control and treatment arms to sufficiently power a study to detect benefit for covid19?

Why do y'all keep making the case against evidence? Do you really think a sample size of 13 in what amounts to an uncontrolled observational study is significant?

Again. If this drug works the more closely you examine it the stronger the signal should get. Why do you think it is that the opposite effect is observed?
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Zobel
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In reply to CSTXAg92 • 1:03p, 1/13/22
AG
We already talked about why a binary "work/doesn't work" standard is pretty useless here.
https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3264970/replies/61255551
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