My wife isn't and won't get vaccinated. Her choice. BIL called her selfish.

Someone please explain this from a scientific perspective through studies that prove that an unvaccinated person puts others at risk.

I did my research and I cannot find any study that points to this. The language used is ambiguous at best. Actually, I can't find an actual study. It's just people making statements.

The virus doesn't care if you're vaccinated. You get it. Vaccinated people get less sick but still spread the virus.

Thanks!

Vaccinated people still can get the disease and can still spread it, but their likelihood of doing so is much less. Pfizer vaccine seems to be the worst of the vaccines against prevention of getting the Delta variant and it is 50% effective. So if person A and person B have Pfizer vaccine they are a combined 75% lass likely to spread virus if vaccinated. That rate of transmission would basically make virus non-existent.

95-96% of those in hospital are not vaccinated, so those that won't get vaccinated are filling up hospitals and using medical resources that could be used for other procedures and medical issues.

So I don't call anyone names and if you and your wife don't want a safe and effective vaccine then so be it, but yes, you do put others more at risk when you don't have vaccine.

GenericAggie said:

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My wife isn't and won't get vaccinated. Her choice. BIL called her selfish.

Someone please explain this from a scientific perspective through studies that prove that an unvaccinated person puts others at risk.

I did my research and I cannot find any study that points to this. The language used is ambiguous at best. Actually, I can't find an actual study. It's just people making statements.

The virus doesn't care if you're vaccinated. You get it. Vaccinated people get less sick but still spread the virus.

Thanks!

---

It's the theory that the unvaccinated people are the ones that get the virus and pass it around. This allows for mutations that could then lead to a new variant that could be vaccine resistant.

I personally don't think that being unvaccinated is simply about putting other people at risk of getting sick.

There is also the risk of an unvaccinated person getting sick, being hospitalized, and putting their family through the emotional and financial distress of everything that entails. Worse, what if you die and leave your spouse a widow and children orphaned?

There is another thread where (I believe) a 38 year old poster shares his story. He specifically posted about the emotional and financial distress that his illness caused his family.

Now, if a spouse is in agreement with the other's position to not get vaccinated and both are willing to accept the risk, that's between them. I firmly believe in personal choice in this situation.

But, should worst-case scenarios happen, I think you should expect judgement from others about the decision not to vaccinate, especially if those others are close family members. That may not be fair (or even any of their business), but it shouldn't be surprising.

.3% chance of hospitalization for 18-49 year olds.


https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

62558 18-49 year olds have been hospitalized from 2020-21.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-of-covid-cases-by-age-group/

~18 million 18-49 total cases as of October '21

I'm not vaxxed.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/10/follow_the_science__except_when_it_comes_to_natural_immunity.html

Quote:
"Data from Israel buttress natural immunity over vaccine immunity as they found that "fully vaccinated" individuals are 27 times more likely to become COVID-infected and symptomatic, and seven times more likely to be hospitalized compared to those unvaccinated but with natural immunity." (The study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full)

Data also shows that the nasal titers of the vaccinated carry significantly higher viral loads.

So if the vaccinated have a significantly higher chance of becoming infected...AND...once infected, carry significantly higher viral loads - aren't the vaccinated the super spreaders? Maybe the jabbed need to be quarantined.

Our home of 4 pure bloods all got sick 4 weeks ago, brought in by our 10th grader. We don't know anyone that he came into contact with that was positive. There seems to be so very few cases within the school - we seldom get the emails anymore alerting us to a Covid positive case. However, we know a few that have been jabbed, that have Covid like symptoms, the Covid throat / strep like symptoms is something we're hearing about.

Vaccinologists, biologists, epidemiologists - many have been saying since early 2020, you do not introduce an imperfect vaccine en masse at the height of a pandemic. We're seeing why now. Leaky vaccines are creating the variants.

Question: What happens when the efficacy of the jab, studies are showing 6 to 8 months, wears off...During flu season? Answer: ADE. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33113270/

Quote:
"Results of the study: COVID-19 vaccines designed to elicit neutralising antibodies may sensitise vaccine recipients to more severe disease than if they were not vaccinated.
Conclusions drawn from the study and clinical implications: The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical ethics standard of patient comprehension for informed consent."

This all comes down to who you believe and who is discerning. We're going to find out soon if ADE is a concern. I pray for humanity it's not. Trust God.

So, that article isn't really a fair comparison. It's comparing the effectiveness of the vaccine in preventing infection to the effectiveness of natural immunity preventing subsequent infections (reinfections) in those who have already had Covid.

The issue is people who have not been vaccinated and have not had Covid (and therefore have no natural immunity).

If we had a crystal ball and could predict who is going to have a severe reaction to Covid compared to those who have mild symptoms, we'd be in a great position. But we don't.

So, the rationale for getting vaccinated, particularly if you are above a certain age and/or if you have certain comorbidities or preexisting conditions is to prevent that severe infection.

That conclusion quoted at the end of your post is about the vaccines causing more serious illness in those vaccinated is comparing the vaccinated to people with natural immunity NOT people with no immunity at all. The statement as it is presented in the context above is very misleading.

Obviously, if you've been infected, you have some immunity. But just like the vaccines, that immunity may wane over time and/or it may not be effective against variants. Only time will tell with that.

And the variant that has caused us the most problems is Delta. That was NOT caused by vaccines. Delta originated in India, and at the time very few people there had been vaccinated.

If people want to wait around for natural immunity, that's their prerogative. But, we've seen a lot of poor outcomes when it comes to people who have made that decision over the last 6 months or so. There is no doubt the vaccine is highly effective in preventing severe disease (hospitalization) and death.

How old is your wife? Do you have kids?

Age and potentially leaving you a single parent are my #1 reasons for pushing for vaccines.

Aston94 said:

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Vaccinated people still can get the disease and can still spread it, but their likelihood of doing so is much less. Pfizer vaccine seems to be the worst of the vaccines against prevention of getting the Delta variant and it is 50% effective. So if person A and person B have Pfizer vaccine they are a combined 75% lass likely to spread virus if vaccinated. That rate of transmission would basically make virus non-existent.

95-96% of those in hospital are not vaccinated, so those that won't get vaccinated are filling up hospitals and using medical resources that could be used for other procedures and medical issues.

So I don't call anyone names and if you and your wife don't want a safe and effective vaccine then so be it, but yes, you do put others more at risk when you don't have vaccine.

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"Vaccinated people still can get the disease and can still spread it, but their likelihood of doing so is much less."

Based on what research, study? Please provide a link. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I'm not being an ass to you, but these statements are not scientific.

03_Aggie said:

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GenericAggie said:

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My wife isn't and won't get vaccinated. Her choice. BIL called her selfish.

Someone please explain this from a scientific perspective through studies that prove that an unvaccinated person puts others at risk.

I did my research and I cannot find any study that points to this. The language used is ambiguous at best. Actually, I can't find an actual study. It's just people making statements.

The virus doesn't care if you're vaccinated. You get it. Vaccinated people get less sick but still spread the virus.

Thanks!

---

It's the theory that the unvaccinated people are the ones that get the virus and pass it around. This allows for mutations that could then lead to a new variant that could be vaccine resistant.

---

Theories are not scientific unless backed by research. I'm honestly looking for the studies.

Your BIL needs to mind is own business. This goes way beyond trying to prove anything to him. This is a subject that honestly most people, on either side, have made up their minds about. I won't even go into it with my friends who are against vaccination that I am vaccinated b/c it was MY CHOICE. But I believe the absolute same about not vaccinating. It her choice. In the end, she just needs to tell her brother to mind his own business.

The data is out there. It is not hard to find. This is just one article that examines vaccine efficacy in preventing infection. There are plenty more linked at the bottom of the page.

The original studies showed 90%+ prevention. Unfortunately, that didn't hold for Delta, and I believe it dropped as low as 50%, depending on what specific vaccine you got.

So, while breakthrough infection is possible, it's also true that at least 50% of people who are vaccinated end up being protected from infection. If you're not infected you can't spread it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34437521/

You are assuming that scientific studies will allow you to convince your BIL to take back his statement. What I'm telling you is his reasons for saying what he did may not be solely based in statistics.

Data overwhelmingly shows that the risk of complications from vaccination is significantly less than the risk of complications from actual infection.

Maybe your wife is one of the majority who, if infected, will only have minor symptoms. But there is no way to know that with any certainty. I suspect that's where your BIL is coming from.

GenericAggie said:

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You're missing my question. I want to see research specific to the spread of the virus.

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I don't know the answer but was asking you my own questions.

If you have kids:
In BCS, there are many families with young kids that have lost a parent to Covid. So instead of facts, i asked if you are ready to be a single dad? If you have the money and don't mind that your wife is selfish then keep on asking questions. But keep in mind she could be the 35 year old marathon runner in perfect health who dies of Covid even though the statistics said .01% chance of death. Will you play roulette?

GenericAggie said:

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TXTransplant said:

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The data is out there. It is not hard to find. This is just one article that examines vaccine efficacy in preventing infection. There are plenty more linked at the bottom of the page.

The original studies showed 90%+ prevention. Unfortunately, that didn't hold for Delta, and I believe it dropped as low as 50%, depending on what specific vaccine you got.

So, while breakthrough infection is possible, it's also true that at least 50% of people who are vaccinated end up being protected from infection. If you're not infected you can't spread it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34437521/

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The data I've seen shows that the vaccine does not stop you from being infected. It helps with sickness.

Are you saying that link shows that the spread is reduced if you have the vaccine?

That's the question I'm asking.

I'm not asking about the efficacy (as defined by the CDC - level of sickness). This is about the spread.

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I posted that article in direct response to your question about infection and spread. Why don't you read it for yourself. Or better yet, do your own search for the dozens of other articles like it. They are not hard to find.

GenericAggie said:

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TXTransplant said:

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You are assuming that scientific studies will allow you to convince your BIL to take back his statement. What I'm telling you is his reasons for saying what he did may not be solely based in statistics.

Data overwhelmingly shows that the risk of complications from vaccination is significantly less than the risk of complications from actual infection.

Maybe your wife is one of the majority who, if infected, will only have minor symptoms. But there is no way to know that with any certainty. I suspect that's where your BIL is coming from.

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This is about the spread of the virus, NOT about the sickness.

I can't keep saying this enough.

I'm asking for research showing spread data. It's well known that you will get less sick if you have the vaccine - not debating that. This is about if you are vaccinated, do you actually spread the virus at a lower rate?

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Your original post said your BIL told your wife she is selfish. You did not explicitly state that spreading the virus to others was his reason. The way your post reads, you inferred that was his reason.

I'm just pointing out that there are other reasons a brother might be concerned that his sister isn't vaccinated that have nothing to do with spreading the virus to others.

If your BIL did explicitly state that was his reason for calling your wife selfish, then my mistake. But that was not clear from your OP.

GenericAggie said:

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TXTransplant said:

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The data is out there. It is not hard to find. This is just one article that examines vaccine efficacy in preventing infection. There are plenty more linked at the bottom of the page.

The original studies showed 90%+ prevention. Unfortunately, that didn't hold for Delta, and I believe it dropped as low as 50%, depending on what specific vaccine you got.

So, while breakthrough infection is possible, it's also true that at least 50% of people who are vaccinated end up being protected from infection. If you're not infected you can't spread it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34437521/

---

The data I've seen shows that the vaccine does not stop you from being infected. It helps with sickness.

Are you saying that link shows that the spread is reduced if you have the vaccine?

That's the question I'm asking.

I'm not asking about the efficacy (as defined by the CDC - level of sickness). This is about the spread.

---

There is data all over showing that massively more people infected are non vaccinated.

I'll give you real data for where I live in San Diego County.

Currently, we have 33.4 cases per 100k for non vaccinated, 8.8 for the vaccinated. That's with a county vaccination rate of 79.4% for fully vaccinated (eligible). So, despite being 20% of the population, the non vaccinated are making up 80% of the cases. It is very obvious that the vaccine reduces the likelihood of contracting the virus. If you are less likely to contract it, you're less likely to spread it.

I'm all for individual choice here and calling someone selfish is a bit extreme, but there is not question that spread will be less if one is vaccinated.

03_Aggie said:

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GenericAggie said:

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My wife isn't and won't get vaccinated. Her choice. BIL called her selfish.

Someone please explain this from a scientific perspective through studies that prove that an unvaccinated person puts others at risk.

I did my research and I cannot find any study that points to this. The language used is ambiguous at best. Actually, I can't find an actual study. It's just people making statements.

The virus doesn't care if you're vaccinated. You get it. Vaccinated people get less sick but still spread the virus.

Thanks!

---

It's the theory that the unvaccinated people are the ones that get the virus and pass it around. This allows for mutations that could then lead to a new variant that could be vaccine resistant.

---

So since my wife was vaccinated got Covid, and gave it to me vaccinated. What's the point of the mandates again? Clearly vaccinated people are still capable of getting and spreading Covid.

If you want a leaky vaccine get one. Forcing people to at this point is just government tyranny.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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03_Aggie said:

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GenericAggie said:

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My wife isn't and won't get vaccinated. Her choice. BIL called her selfish.

Someone please explain this from a scientific perspective through studies that prove that an unvaccinated person puts others at risk.

I did my research and I cannot find any study that points to this. The language used is ambiguous at best. Actually, I can't find an actual study. It's just people making statements.

The virus doesn't care if you're vaccinated. You get it. Vaccinated people get less sick but still spread the virus.

Thanks!

---

It's the theory that the unvaccinated people are the ones that get the virus and pass it around. This allows for mutations that could then lead to a new variant that could be vaccine resistant.

---

So since my wife was vaccinated got Covid, and gave it to me vaccinated. What's the point of the mandates again? Clearly vaccinated people are still capable of getting and spreading Covid.

If you want a leaky vaccine get one. Forcing people to at this point is just government tyranny.

---

Where did he say anything about mandates?

GenericAggie said:

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Aston94 said:

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Vaccinated people still can get the disease and can still spread it, but their likelihood of doing so is much less. Pfizer vaccine seems to be the worst of the vaccines against prevention of getting the Delta variant and it is 50% effective. So if person A and person B have Pfizer vaccine they are a combined 75% lass likely to spread virus if vaccinated. That rate of transmission would basically make virus non-existent.

95-96% of those in hospital are not vaccinated, so those that won't get vaccinated are filling up hospitals and using medical resources that could be used for other procedures and medical issues.

So I don't call anyone names and if you and your wife don't want a safe and effective vaccine then so be it, but yes, you do put others more at risk when you don't have vaccine.

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"Vaccinated people still can get the disease and can still spread it, but their likelihood of doing so is much less."

Based on what research, study? Please provide a link. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I'm not being an ass to you, but these statements are not scientific.

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I am not being an ass but a simple Google search will show you effective rates for the vaccines:

Effectiveness of Vaccines

CDC Study on Effectiveness

Tell him to F off and mind his own business.

DadHammer said:

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Tell him to F off and mind his own business.

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Unvaxxed are selfishly hogging hospital resources so you F off and get vaxxed.