Primary School Age Vaccine Pfizer Study Results

3,492 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by AJ02
cone
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/20/health/covid-children-vaccine-pfizer.html

Quote:

Given how rarely children become severely ill, the trial was not big enough to draw meaningful conclusions about the vaccine's ability to prevent Covid or hospitalization. Instead, the researchers relied on measurements of the youngsters' immune response, on the assumption that the protective levels of antibodies seen in older people would be as protective in younger children.

The children who got the vaccine produced a strong immune response, comparable to the levels of antibodies seen in the earlier trials of participants aged 16 to 25 years. But children in the 5- to 11-year-old group achieved this response with 10 micrograms of the vaccine, a third of the dose given to older children and adults.

At higher doses, the researchers observed more side effects in younger children, including fever, headache and fatigue, although none were severe, Dr. Gruber said. With the 10-microgram dose, "we're actually seeing after the second dose, less fever, less chills than we see in the 16- to 25-year-olds."

https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/20/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-children/?utm_content=buffer45f59&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_organic

Quote:

Outside experts viewed the data as positive, but limited.

"It's not a lot to go on, but what we do have to go on looks great," said Kathleen Neuzil, director of the Center for Vaccine Development and Global Health at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. "A lower dose of this vaccine in children appears as good as the higher dose in older children and adults."

Pfizer's press release did not include any data on the extent to which the vaccine reduced the chances that children would become sick. Gruber said that there were not enough cases of illness to tell. But outside experts said it was reasonable to assume that similar levels of antibodies would mean similar protection from disease.

John Moore, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Weill Cornell Medical College, emphasized that the FDA will be able to analyze both safety and efficacy data from the vaccine. "The bigger dimension is what they're going to have available for safety assessments because of course that's going to matter," Moore said.

One worry could be cases of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart, that have been seen, albeit rarely, in adults. These have occurred only once in every tens or hundreds of thousands of vaccine administrations. But no clinical trial is going to be big enough to give an accurate study of such a rare risk.

"It appears that children in the five to 11 year old age group are the least likely to have severe outcomes of Covid," said Neuzil, citing recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "So not that it's not important and not that it's not a disease worth preventing, but if your severe outcomes are lower, then you're going to have a higher bar for the vaccine performance. You're going to want to be very careful about safety issues."

But that has to be balanced against the risk of Covid-19, experts said. Recent data show more infected children are being hospitalized, and more are ending up in intensive care units. It is no longer just children who have other ailments that are becoming sick, they said.

Neuzel said that she believed that risks could best be dealt with by making sure that parents understand them, and are making an informed choice for their children.

"If this misperception that children do not get affected persists, some people could think it's not necessary to vaccinate children or this smaller risk of side effects could be enough to not vaccinate children," said Flor M. Munoz, an associate professor of pediatrics at Baylor College of Medicine and an investigator in the trial. "We have a different pandemic now than the pandemic we had in 2020."
That means a decision has to be made on more limited data than regulators might like.

"We're stuck between an urgent need for a vaccine and the uncertainty that comes about with making decisions on modest studies," said Andrew T. Pavia, the chief of the division of pediatric infectious disease at the University of Utah. Assuming that the safety and efficacy data hold up when closely examined, Pavia said he thinks the best option is to go ahead and to continue to track rare side effects among people who choose to receive the vaccine.

Gruber, the Pfizer executive, emphasized that public health authorities will have to be the ones to judge whether Pfizer's data are enough to authorize its lower dose vaccine for children.

But Gruber argued that it is important to think of the benefits of the vaccine beyond just preventing severe illness.

"Until we actually get control of the pandemic and children are felt to be protected, there are still going to be significant restrictions in terms of masking, after-school activities, all the things that allow children to be children," said Gruber. "You know, I'm a pediatrician. I see the vaccine as liberating. To allow people to get back to their normal lives, that particular aspect can't be lost in all of this."

this seems rather underwhelming ngl
Old Buffalo
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Just gotta "trust the science", bro.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
jopatura
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It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.
Diyala Nick
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jopatura said:

It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.


Great questions. Not really possible to answer in a definitive way without years of data and tens of thousands of trial participants.
cone
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I was really wondering how they were going to design the study to test efficacy. It seemed like they hadn't recruited enough kids on that score.

Turns out they just didn't even try.
Not a Bot
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That last paragraph, the quote from the pediatrician, it's so frustrating.

The incredibly low severe illness rate alone for kids is enough for them to let them live their lives right now.
cone
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this guy nailed it
cone
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if this is granted EUA the application of these findings in terms of policy is going to be extraordinarily divisive

like you ain't seen nothing yet divisive

Dad
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It sounds like the side effects are worse than Covid and if it works like the adult version of Pfizer your kid still ends up getting Covid anyway. My kids had the sniffles for 2 days and felt fine the whole time when they had Covid.

I got my first shot of Moderna in early January so I am not an anti-vaxxer but I am big on weighing the risks and benefits of medical treatment and it doesn't seem worth it for younger kids.
cone
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I'm just kinda shocked that titer levels are what they are going to sell to a skeptical public

If this is limited to a immunocompromised population, makes sense

but gen pop?
cisgenderedAggie
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Can't speak for vaccines, but it's not unusual for pediatric doses of other therapies to be based on dosing for safety and biomarkers with little to no clinical efficacy. Different situation, and well is already poisoned, but smells like the start of yet another crappy messaging execution.
14TheRoad
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The people pushing this for kids are nuts. Both of my kids had covid and from the onset of symptoms to being fully recovered back to normal was 3-5 days with the worst of symptoms being comparable to a cold, strep or the flu. Makes absolutely no sense to vaccinate kids when covid is essentially risk free to them.
ChrisTAMU
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Eminus6 said:

The people pushing this for kids are nuts. Both of my kids had covid and from the onset of symptoms to being fully recovered back to normal was 3-5 days with the worst of symptoms being comparable to a cold, strep or the flu. Makes absolutely no sense to vaccinate kids when covid is essentially risk free to them.


We are the first generation in American history to make our elementary school kids suffer because mommy and daddy are afraid. Totally pathetic
cone
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the FDA conference call to formally review these findings and advise a recommendation is going to be bonkers

I can't imagine the pressure they will be under
94chem
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Should have measured the number of infections among adults in their homes versus a control group. The real question is how many people the kids infect. But then again, who really cares? Everybody is getting COVID. I saw yet another friend tonight, mid-40's, perfectly healthy, down 25 pounds after a harrowing month of unvaxxed hell. His choice.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
agsalaska
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jopatura said:

It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.
So, with all due respect to fatherhood and protective instincs and all of that, I have kids too.

But what data are you seeing that makes you believe your 7 and 4 year old children pose any risk at all to your newborn? Or that the virus does in any way?
AggieUSMC
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Quote:

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.
By the time your kids turn 12, they'll have been exposed to 800 different variants of COVID 800 different times. They'll be swimming in antibodies. Vaccines will be moot.
jopatura
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agsalaska said:

jopatura said:

It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.
So, with all due respect to fatherhood and protective instincs and all of that, I have kids too.

But what data are you seeing that makes you believe your 7 and 4 year old children pose any risk at all to your newborn? Or that the virus does in any way?


It may be unfounded, but it's the slight SIDS risk. There have been COVID positive babies that passed from SIDS. Yes, I know the whole passed of COVID and passed with COVID debate. I'm just as weary of RSV and the flu as well (we all will get flu shots this year).

I'm not sure I could live with the decision on the very small chance one of the older kids brought COVID home and it was deadly for the newborn, no matter if that is a .0000000001% chance. I just wish there was some data out there, for or against, that could be trusted. At the end of the day it'll come down to my gut and man, that's a hard decision.
agsalaska
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Understand. Each has to make their own.
Sandman98
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Did they just throw a dart at a board and decide 12 was old enough and now 5 is old enough? Have we been told WHY those ages matter as it relates to the vaccine?

If it's about physical maturity, I'm wondering if any of these spend any time around kids? Physical development varies wildly in these age ranges. Why was a 12 year old in an 8 year old body eligible?

I haven't heard a single person explain the sCiEnCe behind the age breaks.
West Point Aggie
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Sandman98 said:


I haven't heard a single person explain the sCiEnCe behind the age breaks.

Psssst…you're not going to…like gathering of magical 250 people or no mask while sitting but the second your butt gets up…better mask up! It is mostly reactionary and done for the sake of doing "something" that makes someone feel good they did it and can broadcast it!
cisgenderedAggie
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Sandman98 said:

Did they just throw a dart at a board and decide 12 was old enough and now 5 is old enough? Have we been told WHY those ages matter as it relates to the vaccine?

If it's about physical maturity, I'm wondering if any of these spend any time around kids? Physical development varies wildly in these age ranges. Why was a 12 year old in an 8 year old body eligible?

I haven't heard a single person explain the sCiEnCe behind the age breaks.


The age groupings aren't unusual for pediatric development, though I don't really know the origin. Typically, you try to step down incrementally unless the disease profile necessitates a more direct approach. 12-17 represent adolescents, which generally aren't believed to be a lot different from small adults. Not really sure why 5 gets to be the next cutoff, but it happens a lot. Depending on individual things, like puberty onset, there could be meaningful differences between 5-6 yo and 10-11 yo. 2 ends up being a justifiable cutoff for early children in part because several things start working a little different after infancy and toddler stage. Each step warrants a little more caution. Some steps make a lot more sense in my opinion (2yo and 12-13yo), but some of it is just needing to draw the line somewhere to be able to run a trial.

I think with Covid, the risk profile can be suggested to follow similar gradations, but a lot of that is an artifact of how data are reported. Nothing about what I'm seeing reported for pediatric development is out of the ordinary, at least based on my experience with drug development (not completely the same). I do think there seems to be much less discussion in popular press than there should be about consideration of the risk profiles relative to disease. Most pediatric trials are heavily underpowered, but they're usually designed to test treatment of something for the child that represents an outsized risk to the child.
cone
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the reaction to the study's result seems like a key driver was anxiety alleviation, largely within the adult population

I see that, but that's why I thought the FDA's recommendation against gen pop vaccinations was surprising. the boosters represent a psychic necessity for a not insignificant part of the population. no return to normalcy can exist without that part of bio security for that tribe.
Get Off My Lawn
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West Point Aggie said:

Sandman98 said:


I haven't heard a single person explain the sCiEnCe behind the age breaks.

Psssst…you're not going to…like gathering of magical 250 people or no mask while sitting but the second your butt gets up…better mask up! It is mostly reactionary and done for the sake of doing "something" that makes someone feel good they did it and can broadcast it!
It's almost like they arbitrarily picked a number on a gradient that would *seem* reasonable to much of the population!

My age recommendation: anyone who's healthy and may still parent children of their own.
KidDoc
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I'm excited for vaccines for 5-11 but only for high risk patients. I think mass vaccine for all healthy normal 5-11 year olds is a bit nuts. As USMC mentioned I expect young kids to COVID several times between 2-6 years of life and will demonstrate robust long term immunity over time.

I've had several newborns with COVID and they do amazingly well. HSV, RSV, Flu, HMV all MUCH MUCH worse than COVID in that demographic.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
cone
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any ideas on what the AAP is going to do with a FDA EUA?
KidDoc
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cone said:

any ideas on what the AAP is going to do with a FDA EUA?
Most likely be all in, they are a bit of joke IMO over the last 5+ years. They have been all in on masking kids 2+ despite the lack of evidence and WHO not recommending it. I don't understand a group "for the health of all children" comes out against any law that has any restriction on abortion.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Hammerly High Dive Crips
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jopatura said:

It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.


I think like 105 infants under 1 have passed from Covid since the pandemic started. Just for some perspective.
Agnes Moffitt Rollin 60's - RIP Casper and Lil Ricky - FREE GOOFY AND LUCKY!
SwigAg11
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Do we know if that 105 is WITH Covid or FROM COVID? The recent infographic I saw had it labelled as with COVID, and I'm curious with the always present danger of SIDS if they were actually able to isolate the issue to COVID?
Stupid@17
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SwigAg11 said:

Do we know if that 105 is WITH Covid or FROM COVID? The recent infographic I saw had it labelled as with COVID, and I'm curious with the always present danger of SIDS if they were actually able to isolate the issue to COVID?


Sadly even if the answer is known, based upon all the bull**** studies we have all seen. We as a population will never be told.
harge57
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jopatura said:

It really doesn't answer the questions that I had :/

Do kids still get MIS-C after a vaccinated COVID breakthrough?

What happens when a vaccinated child turns 12? Do they need the adult dose at that point?

The only reason I would consider it is because I'll have a newborn in Feb. I have one kid in preschool (will be 5 soon) and one kid in 1st grade. It's tempting to have everyone vaxxed to keep the baby safer. I'm just not sure I can get there though.
There are good reasons to get the vaccine (in adults). Protecting newborns from COVID is not one of them.

The risk to newborns is so low that the low rate of complications with the vaccine far outweigh any benefit gained for the newborn.

Personally I would never risk the side effects on my 5 year old and 18 month old to protect our 6 week old from an essentially non-existent threat.
harge57
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SwigAg11 said:

Do we know if that 105 is WITH Covid or FROM COVID? The recent infographic I saw had it labelled as with COVID, and I'm curious with the always present danger of SIDS if they were actually able to isolate the issue to COVID?
Can't find that for infants but for under 21 deaths this study showed the following:

Quote:

Information on underlying medical conditions was available for all decedents (Table 4; Supplemental Figure 2); 96 decedents (86%) had at least one underlying medical condition, including 50 (52%) with 3 underlying medical conditions and 25 (26%) with 5 underlying medical conditions.

It does seem every infant death news story I have ever read includes something about underlying issues.

KidDoc
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harge57 said:

SwigAg11 said:

Do we know if that 105 is WITH Covid or FROM COVID? The recent infographic I saw had it labelled as with COVID, and I'm curious with the always present danger of SIDS if they were actually able to isolate the issue to COVID?
Can't find that for infants but for under 21 deaths this study showed the following:

Quote:

Information on underlying medical conditions was available for all decedents (Table 4; Supplemental Figure 2); 96 decedents (86%) had at least one underlying medical condition, including 50 (52%) with 3 underlying medical conditions and 25 (26%) with 5 underlying medical conditions.

It does seem every infant death news story I have ever read includes something about underlying issues.


The stories that talk about bad outcomes in kids and young adults often say "healthy" but it is pretty clear most of them are obese or at least overweight. For reasons that are not completely understood that seems to be a major risk factor specifically with COVID.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
cone
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katy bar the door in that case
94chem
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KidDoc said:

harge57 said:

SwigAg11 said:

Do we know if that 105 is WITH Covid or FROM COVID? The recent infographic I saw had it labelled as with COVID, and I'm curious with the always present danger of SIDS if they were actually able to isolate the issue to COVID?
Can't find that for infants but for under 21 deaths this study showed the following:

Quote:

Information on underlying medical conditions was available for all decedents (Table 4; Supplemental Figure 2); 96 decedents (86%) had at least one underlying medical condition, including 50 (52%) with 3 underlying medical conditions and 25 (26%) with 5 underlying medical conditions.

It does seem every infant death news story I have ever read includes something about underlying issues.


The stories that talk about bad outcomes in kids and young adults often say "healthy" but it is pretty clear most of them are obese or at least overweight. For reasons that are not completely understood that seems to be a major risk factor specifically with COVID.
The amount of inflammation in overweight kids is probably significant. Sugar intake for some children is astounding.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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