Vaccine push after natural immunity?

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GeographyAg
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In reply to Dad • 4:22p, 9/13/21
AG
Dad said:
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.
I'm very pro-vaccine but I know a bunch of people that have had the vaccine and then got Covid. I know one person that has had Covid and then got it again and it was not bad enough to even consider going to the hospital.

Your anecdotal remark is useless, as is the one I just made.

You are absolutely correct. Anecdotal stories are pretty much worthless, and yet people are constantly posting them here, usually to point out how weak the virus is or how they already had covid and will, "of course," never get it again. Those stories are useless and stupid, so I posted one anecdote that they can ignore the same way I'll ignore theirs.

I know several people who got the vaccine and then got covid. I expect to get covid. I honestly am seriously surprised so many people seem to think the vaccine is like a forcefield around them to keep the virus away. Of course we'll all get it. That's not even a question. The only question is how bad will your case be? How easily will your body fight it off? That's the only thing we in our household understand it to do. We're all thrilled to have a head start on it with the vaccine.


If I’m posting, it’s actually Mrs GeographyAg.
Mr. GeographyAg is a dedicated lurker.
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Reveille
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 5:57p, 9/13/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
My patients are used to me by now. I don't pull punches or dance around hard topics. The people that like it really appreciate it. Those that don't like it go someone else
This is exactly the way I am!

I also agree with the vaccine statements. I have patients every day convinced that they had Covid previously, many way back in 2019. When antibody testing first came out patients were so disappointed that they did not have any antibodies. They were so sure that they already had Covid previously.

I tell them natural immunity appears superior to acquired immunity from the vaccine but natural immunity plus acquired immunity is by far the most protective of all. So there really is no reason to not get the vaccine it only boosts the immunity you already have.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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TheMasterplan
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 6:15p, 9/13/21
ramblin_ag02 said:
IMHO, in those cases it's a waste of time and resources. If they was a vaccine shortage and we were guarding supply, then it would be a different story. If the vaccine cost more than the antibody test, then that would be a different story. If the vaccine was dangerious, then it would be a different story. As of now I have no reason to go to all that time and trouble to avoid giving a safe, effective, free, and freely available vaccine.
So then we're no longer making decisions based on science but project management?
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FriendlyAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 6:35p, 9/13/21
ramblin_ag02 said:
The best immunity is a combination of infection and vaccination. We'd prefer people get vaccinated and then either not catch COVID or have a mild case after. For those who've had COVID and recovered, a round of vaccination afterward is the best defense.

I'm not giving people any grief for declining vaccination after confirmed infections. However, I see a ton of people who are 100% convinced they have had COVID despite never being tested while sick or being tested for antibodies. These people are all 100% convinced they have outstanding natural immunity right up until some of them end up in the hospital with delta. So I've been tending to just blanket recommend vaccines regardless


That was harsh lmao
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cc_ag92
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In reply to FriendlyAg • 8:37p, 9/13/21
AG
What on earth was harsh about what you quoted?
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aTm2004
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:08a, 9/14/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Again, if you already have documentation of prior infection, then I wouldn't push the issue. What I see routinely is people that are "100% sure" they had it and have no proof. Those are the times I push vaccination anyway
Wife had positive home test, then went to get PCR per work policy. I was about a day behind in feeling bad. When her PCR test came back positive, I took a home test, which came back positive. We both had similar symptoms (fatigue, eyes hurting, on and off headaches), but she did get some slight congestion. After 4 days for her and 3 for me, our fevers broke and we began feeling better. 3 days after my fever broke, I noticed my smell was gone and my taste was off. I mentioned it to my wife, and she had smell but her taste was also off. We're now 3+ weeks from it, and my smell is still mostly gone, though I have noticed "fresh" smells seem to be coming slightly back (like clothes from a dryer). With a 2 year old still in diapers, I'm not missing my smell that bad. Both of our tastes are back to normal.

Just saw a thread about legs hurting. I didn't think anything of it, but one of the days where I had symptoms, my calves felt like I had spent the previous day doing nothing but calf raises. Hurt like hell, but luckily lasted only a day. Wife also had issues with leg pain, though hers were her whole leg.

I may get an antibody test soon, but I find it hard to believe I didn't have it given my wife's positive test and having the same symptoms (minus congestion) as her at the same time, all of which are documented symptoms of COVID.
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03_Aggie
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In reply to aTm2004 • 9:26a, 9/14/21
I think the home tests are fairly accurate when it comes to positive results. I think they are more susceptible to false negatives as they don't have the sensitivity that the PCR tests have.

That said, everyone in our house had similar symptoms, within three days of my son presenting first, but only two out of four tested positive. I've actually tested negative on four home tests and one PCR test over the two weeks I've been dealing with the symptoms.

My Dr., given timing and symptoms, is leaning towards having it and being the rare instance that generates a negative PCR test. I'm a curious person so I will probably get an antibody test to confirm one way or the other.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to [removed post] • 9:52a, 9/14/21
AG
Quote:
Well I've had Covid. It was incredibly mild and I do not want or need additional protection from a vaccine. I also work out everyday and am in good health. Thanks for your concern though.
Quote:
I'm just pointing out that I have a friend who is in her late 30s, skinny, and in good health prior to covid, who has now had it twice and the second time was worse than the first. Anybody can take whatever point they'd like from that fact.
Quote:
I really hate antecdotes because for every bad antecdote there are 10x the positive antecdotes that you never hear about because it isn't interesting. People tend to remember frightening things.

So you offer your own personal, one-observation anecdote as relevant but then when a competing anecodote is offered, you declare that you hate anecdotes?

I do generally agree with you that anecdotes are not helpful for informed decision making and that is why proper large scale measuring and statistical analysis is used by medical professionals (I hope in most cases).
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ShinerDunk93
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12:42p, 9/14/21
AG
This topic interests me because I have a 12 year old child that tested positive for antibodies during her annual checkup prior to the start of school. She never had any symptoms. I would rather not get her vaccinated in spite of the extremely low vaccine issues.

That being said, the fact that she is only 12, healthy and C19 recovered, she is also at extremely low risk. Why would I want to get her vaccinated other than to avoid potential future hassles for travel or school?

This is an unscientific non-medical reason.

This is the situation where our one-size-fits all policies make me upset. Until the CDC even admits natural immunity exists and addresses it, I will view them with a skeptical eye.

FWIW. I'm vaccinated (Pfizer), my wife (J&J) also caught it one month later but she didn't get tested because she thought it might be allergies since she had been vaxed. We did the Texas Cares survey. It was really easy and fast. Kind of interesting that myself and my 10 year old live with two C19+ people and we don't have natural antibodies. The kids shared a room up until school started.
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In reply to ShinerDunk93 • 12:51p, 9/14/21
aggierogue
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In reply to ShinerDunk93 • 1:11p, 9/14/21
AG
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
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KidDoc
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In reply to aggierogue • 4:28p, 9/14/21
AG
aggierogue said:
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
I'm not concerned about long term vaccine side effects. It is truly odd how concerned people are about long term adverse effects when literally no vaccine has long term side effects. It really is weird (not you specifically just in general).

That being said the myocarditis data in teens after vaccine is concerning. In your situation I would advise delaying vaccine at least 6 months if not longer and then get enrolled in Texas Cares and monitor titers over time to see if it is worth getting her vaccine at some point in the future.

ETA: Don't forget even being overweight is a risk factor for hospitalization with COVID in children. You don't have to have lung issues to be at risk.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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nhamp07
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5:05p, 9/14/21
AG
As someone reading this thread who was fully vaxxed in February and Covid+ in June, I am sitting at the top of the world.
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astros4545
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6:48p, 9/14/21
AG
After you get chicken pox, make sure you get the vaccine everyone

its super important
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nhamp07
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In reply to astros4545 • 7:31p, 9/14/21
AG
astros4545 said:
After you get chicken pox, make sure you get the vaccine everyone

its super important
I guess you can stop getting the Flu Vaccine too if you had the flu....

Geez.
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Senator Blutarski
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8:50p, 9/14/21
AG
Wall Street Journal, September 13, 2021 "Covid Confusion at the CDC"

Quote:
Sound data from the CDC has been especially lacking on natural immunity from prior Covid infection. On Aug. 25, Israel published the most powerful and scientifically rigorous study on the subject to date. In a sample of more than 700,000 people, natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccinated immunity in preventing symptomatic infections.

Despite this evidence, U.S. public health officials continue to dismiss natural immunity, insisting that those who have recovered from Covid must still get the vaccine. Policy makers and public health leaders, and the media voices that parrot them, are inexplicably sticking to their original hypothesis that natural immunity is fleeting, even as at least 15 studies show it lasts.

Meanwhile, employers fire workers with natural immunity who won't get vaccinated. Schools disenroll students who won't comply.
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jlAG97
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In reply to Senator Blutarski • 8:07a, 9/15/21
Thanks! this is what I was getting at.

Who or what has the study to show confirmed COVID natural immunity isn't going to last long?

And, even if natural immunity doesn't prevent a future infection from another variant, how do we know the person won't have much more mild symptoms the next time?
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aTm2004
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In reply to jlAG97 • 8:41a, 9/15/21
AG
jlAG97 said:
Thanks! this is what I was getting at.

Who or what has the study to show confirmed COVID natural immunity isn't going to last long?

And, even if natural immunity doesn't prevent a future infection from another variant, how do we know the person won't have much more mild symptoms the next time?

It doesn't exist. If a legit study existed, it would be plastered all over the news and social media. Never look at what politicians and the media is telling you. Look at what they're not telling you, because that tells the real story.
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88planoAg
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In reply to jlAG97 • 9:02a, 9/15/21
AG
jlAG97 said:
Thanks! this is what I was getting at.

Who or what has the study to show confirmed COVID natural immunity isn't going to last long?

And, even if natural immunity doesn't prevent a future infection from another variant, how do we know the person won't have much more mild symptoms the next time?
It isn't this so much (because there is no confirmation that natural immunity goes away) vs scientists unwilling to project into the future to a scientific certainty. They will say 'sure immunity exists now, but because this is all new we cannot say it will last moving forward'. That is why you see the 'immunity is 3 months' then 'immunity is up to 9 months' statements.

But we cannot make wait on scientific certainty to make public policy. That is impractical. At some point, it has to be 'good enough'.

If the vaccines were providing bullet proof protection and the recovered were the only ones having breakthrough infections (ignoring, for the moment, the unvaccinated) then sure, that would be evidence that the vaccines provide better protection. But all evidence indicates that vaccinated and recovered are at least equally unlikely to become infected - or in some studies the vaccinated are more likely than the recovered to become infected/contagious.

All of which leads me to believe that my antibodies, confirmed with a positive covid test Dec 2020 plus continued evidence of active antibodies via blood test, is good enough for me. That doesn't make me an anti-anything. I'm basing my decisions on my own circumstances and laboratory evidence.
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aggie93
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In reply to Reveille • 9:19a, 9/15/21
AG
Reveille said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
My patients are used to me by now. I don't pull punches or dance around hard topics. The people that like it really appreciate it. Those that don't like it go someone else
This is exactly the way I am!

I also agree with the vaccine statements. I have patients every day convinced that they had Covid previously, many way back in 2019. When antibody testing first came out patients were so disappointed that they did not have any antibodies. They were so sure that they already had Covid previously.

I tell them natural immunity appears superior to acquired immunity from the vaccine but natural immunity plus acquired immunity is by far the most protective of all. So there really is no reason to not get the vaccine it only boosts the immunity you already have.
Sure there is. Vaccines are wonderful and amazing things but they have side effects and for some people those are severe. They chemically change your body and that's how they prevent diseases like Covid from taking hold but they can change your body in other unintended ways like all powerful drugs. Getting the vax is the right choice for most people but if you have had Covid it should certainly be a personal decision as to whether or not to get the vax. We still don't know the long term effects of the vax much less how it might affect various subgroups of people with other conditions. It doesn't mean we should be paranoid but to say that someone shouldn't get antibody testing but should just get the shot is a really great way to lose trust.

I know your intent is good but when you blow off legitimate concerns and act like the vaccine is perfect you aren't going to convince people who have doubts to comply. For instance saying there are no side effects and then they know of people that have had side effects they won't believe you. When you say they don't need to get an antibody test because it is too much expense or hassle when we have spent literally trillions on Covid that rings hollow as well. The way you do that is to give them all the facts and let them decide, intimidation is a really bad strategy and has backfired badly.

The only thing that is crazier is not telling people how to deal with Covid when they get it other than get tested and go to the hospital. It's a virus, you should be doing everything you can to boost your immune system with vitamins, exercise, and a properly prescribed dosage of Ivermectin in most cases. If you do that your odds of ending up in the hospital drop drastically which is a win for everyone. That's regardless of vax status btw and is good general health.

It really is like Dallas Buyers Club and that's really sad.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to 88planoAg • 9:19a, 9/15/21
88planoAg said:
jlAG97 said:
Thanks! this is what I was getting at.

Who or what has the study to show confirmed COVID natural immunity isn't going to last long?

And, even if natural immunity doesn't prevent a future infection from another variant, how do we know the person won't have much more mild symptoms the next time?
It isn't this so much (because there is no confirmation that natural immunity goes away) vs scientists unwilling to project into the future to a scientific certainty. They will say 'sure immunity exists now, but because this is all new we cannot say it will last moving forward'. That is why you see the 'immunity is 3 months' then 'immunity is up to 9 months' statements.

But we cannot make wait on scientific certainty to make public policy. That is impractical. At some point, it has to be 'good enough'.

If the vaccines were providing bullet proof protection and the recovered were the only ones having breakthrough infections (ignoring, for the moment, the unvaccinated) then sure, that would be evidence that the vaccines provide better protection. But all evidence indicates that vaccinated and recovered are at least equally unlikely to become infected - or in some studies the vaccinated are more likely than the recovered to become infected/contagious.

All of which leads me to believe that my antibodies, confirmed with a positive covid test Dec 2020 plus continued evidence of active antibodies via blood test, is good enough for me. That doesn't make me an anti-anything. I'm basing my decisions on my own circumstances and laboratory evidence.



This is why public health organizations can't effectively lump previous infections with vaccinations.

We have a decentralized health record system. With our current systems it is extremely difficult to centrally track who has been actually infected and recovered outside of consolidating health and reconciling health records from the individual systems and then conducting antibody screening on anybody that was infected but not seek medical attention.

This is not free. It is time consuming and prone to error. Germany and other countries can do it because they have single payer health care (a single system of record)

On a public health policy level, There is no downside to getting everyone regardless of infection status vaccinated. There is the upside of having an accurate count of known vaccinated/recovered.

The cheapest way to get the number of vaccinated/recovered with the no over estimation is to only count those vaccinated.

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Senator Blutarski
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10:28a, 9/15/21
AG
Are you saying that it's OK for the CDC to not be completely open and honest with us to make it easier for them?
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Duncan Idaho
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10:38a, 9/15/21
They are being honest.

They are reporting vaccinated individuals.

Anything else would be a guess and to present it as a metric would be intentionally lying.
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petebaker
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1:16p, 9/16/21

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Irish 2.0
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In reply to KidDoc • 1:53p, 9/16/21
KidDoc said:
aggierogue said:
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
I'm not concerned about long term vaccine side effects. It is truly odd how concerned people are about long term adverse effects when literally no vaccine has long term side effects. It really is weird (not you specifically just in general).

That being said the myocarditis data in teens after vaccine is concerning. In your situation I would advise delaying vaccine at least 6 months if not longer and then get enrolled in Texas Cares and monitor titers over time to see if it is worth getting her vaccine at some point in the future.

ETA: Don't forget even being overweight is a risk factor for hospitalization with COVID in children. You don't have to have lung issues to be at risk.
I believe the conern is that it is mRNA vaccines. This isn't a typical vaccine. mRNA has been around for years and for all intents and purposes, seems entirely safe for the vast majority of people. But we have no idea what might come from this in 5, 10, 15, 20, etc. years. There is no supporting data to make the claim that the mRNA vaccines have no long term side effects because there is no historical data on suce a large sample size. I'm not one of those saying that just wait five years and enjoy having a new arm to give yourself "The Stranger," but I understand the hesitancy amongst people that are younger and healthy as well as parents having zero interest in the mRNA vaccines for their children.

If you'd want to see a potential seismic shift with the hesitancy, maybe it is time for the CDC and FDA to stop playing politics for Moderna and Pfizer and get the some of the more traditional subunit protein vaccines in the distribution pipelines.
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KidDoc
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In reply to Irish 2.0 • 1:59p, 9/16/21
AG
Irish 2.0 said:
KidDoc said:
aggierogue said:
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
I'm not concerned about long term vaccine side effects. It is truly odd how concerned people are about long term adverse effects when literally no vaccine has long term side effects. It really is weird (not you specifically just in general).

That being said the myocarditis data in teens after vaccine is concerning. In your situation I would advise delaying vaccine at least 6 months if not longer and then get enrolled in Texas Cares and monitor titers over time to see if it is worth getting her vaccine at some point in the future.

ETA: Don't forget even being overweight is a risk factor for hospitalization with COVID in children. You don't have to have lung issues to be at risk.
I believe the conern is that it is mRNA vaccines. This isn't a typical vaccine. mRNA has been around for years and for all intents and purposes, seems entirely safe for the vast majority of people. But we have no idea what might come from this in 5, 10, 15, 20, etc. years. There is no supporting data to make the claim that the mRNA vaccines have no long term side effects because there is no historical data on suce a large sample size. I'm not one of those saying that just wait five years and enjoy having a new arm to give yourself "The Stranger," but I understand the hesitancy amongst people that are younger and healthy as well as parents having zero interest in the mRNA vaccines for their children.

If you'd want to see a potential seismic shift with the hesitancy, maybe it is time for the CDC and FDA to stop playing politics for Moderna and Pfizer and get the some of the more traditional subunit protein vaccines in the distribution pipelines.
Great points as to why people are worried, but I disagree based on the biochemistry and last 15+ years of mRNA research and use in humans.

Want to Know More About mRNA Before Your COVID Jab? | MedPage Today


mRNA vaccine is a true moonshot type jump in tech. I suspect you will see a wide range of uses from improved flu vaccine, to RSV vaccine, to cancer treatments.

the mRNA goes away almost immediately and all that is left are the spike proteins generated by your ribosomes. Hell, they have to keep these vaccines very cold or they deactivate pretty quickly. It makes no biochemical sense for there to be long term issues from injected mRNA. Short term for sure there are risks and adverse effects, after ~4 weeks it just is not biologically sensible.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to KidDoc • 4:13p, 9/16/21
KidDoc said:
aggierogue said:
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
I'm not concerned about long term vaccine side effects. It is truly odd how concerned people are about long term adverse effects when literally no vaccine has long term side effects. It really is weird (not you specifically just in general).

That being said the myocarditis data in teens after vaccine is concerning. In your situation I would advise delaying vaccine at least 6 months if not longer and then get enrolled in Texas Cares and monitor titers over time to see if it is worth getting her vaccine at some point in the future.

ETA: Don't forget even being overweight is a risk factor for hospitalization with COVID in children. You don't have to have lung issues to be at risk.
I caution against an observation fallacy: we only introduce / keep "good" vaccines, but that doesn't mean that "bad ones" haven't been produced.

Also - the risks associated with vaccines include (in some rare cases including allergic reaction) a very small chance of death - which happens to be a pretty long term / significant / negative impact.

I think the vax is a great thing - especially for old / unhealthy folks, but over-asserting solicits push back.
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KidDoc
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 4:47p, 9/16/21
AG
Get Off My Lawn said:
KidDoc said:
aggierogue said:
Unless my child has respiratory risks (asthma or other lung issues), there is no way I'm getting them vaccinated at this point. The risks of the vaccine (imo) outweigh them getting Covid. I have very little fear of my middle school child getting Covid. I have more concerns for my wife and me.

I'll feel much better after we have a few years of longitudinal studies for the vaccine.
I'm not concerned about long term vaccine side effects. It is truly odd how concerned people are about long term adverse effects when literally no vaccine has long term side effects. It really is weird (not you specifically just in general).

That being said the myocarditis data in teens after vaccine is concerning. In your situation I would advise delaying vaccine at least 6 months if not longer and then get enrolled in Texas Cares and monitor titers over time to see if it is worth getting her vaccine at some point in the future.

ETA: Don't forget even being overweight is a risk factor for hospitalization with COVID in children. You don't have to have lung issues to be at risk.
I caution against an observation fallacy: we only introduce / keep "good" vaccines, but that doesn't mean that "bad ones" haven't been produced.

Also - the risks associated with vaccines include (in some rare cases including allergic reaction) a very small chance of death - which happens to be a pretty long term / significant / negative impact.

I think the vax is a great thing - especially for old / unhealthy folks, but over-asserting solicits push back.
You know as well as I do that death is not the "long term side effects" people are worried about. From what I can deduce it is infertility or malignancy that the long term worry folks are thinking about.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Gordo14
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In reply to aggie93 • 6:05p, 9/16/21
aggie93 said:
Reveille said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
My patients are used to me by now. I don't pull punches or dance around hard topics. The people that like it really appreciate it. Those that don't like it go someone else
This is exactly the way I am!

I also agree with the vaccine statements. I have patients every day convinced that they had Covid previously, many way back in 2019. When antibody testing first came out patients were so disappointed that they did not have any antibodies. They were so sure that they already had Covid previously.

I tell them natural immunity appears superior to acquired immunity from the vaccine but natural immunity plus acquired immunity is by far the most protective of all. So there really is no reason to not get the vaccine it only boosts the immunity you already have.
Sure there is. Vaccines are wonderful and amazing things but they have side effects and for some people those are severe. They chemically change your body and that's how they prevent diseases like Covid from taking hold but they can change your body in other unintended ways like all powerful drugs. Getting the vax is the right choice for most people but if you have had Covid it should certainly be a personal decision as to whether or not to get the vax. We still don't know the long term effects of the vax much less how it might affect various subgroups of people with other conditions. It doesn't mean we should be paranoid but to say that someone shouldn't get antibody testing but should just get the shot is a really great way to lose trust.

I know your intent is good but when you blow off legitimate concerns and act like the vaccine is perfect you aren't going to convince people who have doubts to comply. For instance saying there are no side effects and then they know of people that have had side effects they won't believe you. When you say they don't need to get an antibody test because it is too much expense or hassle when we have spent literally trillions on Covid that rings hollow as well. The way you do that is to give them all the facts and let them decide, intimidation is a really bad strategy and has backfired badly.

The only thing that is crazier is not telling people how to deal with Covid when they get it other than get tested and go to the hospital. It's a virus, you should be doing everything you can to boost your immune system with vitamins, exercise, and a properly prescribed dosage of Ivermectin in most cases. If you do that your odds of ending up in the hospital drop drastically which is a win for everyone. That's regardless of vax status btw and is good general health.

It really is like Dallas Buyers Club and that's really sad.


The vaccines don't chemically change your body. The entire premise of your argument is wrong. Of course, anti-intellectual post is loved by thr anti-vax crowd. If you don't understand the difference between a vaccine and a drug then you don't have a legitimate opinion. That's just a fact. The information is out there and readily accessible.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to Gordo14 • 5:55a, 9/17/21
Well, an intentional biological tweak is TECHNICALLY a change in chemical arrangement... but by that logic we might as well call it a personal quantum mechanics experiment.
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KidDoc
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2:26p, 9/17/21
AG
New article today comparing the 3 vaccines in the USA:

Moderna's vaccine is the most effective, but Pfizer and J&J also protect well, CDC-led study says (msn.com)

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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aggie93
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In reply to Gordo14 • 5:45p, 9/17/21
AG
Gordo14 said:
aggie93 said:
Reveille said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
My patients are used to me by now. I don't pull punches or dance around hard topics. The people that like it really appreciate it. Those that don't like it go someone else
This is exactly the way I am!

I also agree with the vaccine statements. I have patients every day convinced that they had Covid previously, many way back in 2019. When antibody testing first came out patients were so disappointed that they did not have any antibodies. They were so sure that they already had Covid previously.

I tell them natural immunity appears superior to acquired immunity from the vaccine but natural immunity plus acquired immunity is by far the most protective of all. So there really is no reason to not get the vaccine it only boosts the immunity you already have.
Sure there is. Vaccines are wonderful and amazing things but they have side effects and for some people those are severe. They chemically change your body and that's how they prevent diseases like Covid from taking hold but they can change your body in other unintended ways like all powerful drugs. Getting the vax is the right choice for most people but if you have had Covid it should certainly be a personal decision as to whether or not to get the vax. We still don't know the long term effects of the vax much less how it might affect various subgroups of people with other conditions. It doesn't mean we should be paranoid but to say that someone shouldn't get antibody testing but should just get the shot is a really great way to lose trust.

I know your intent is good but when you blow off legitimate concerns and act like the vaccine is perfect you aren't going to convince people who have doubts to comply. For instance saying there are no side effects and then they know of people that have had side effects they won't believe you. When you say they don't need to get an antibody test because it is too much expense or hassle when we have spent literally trillions on Covid that rings hollow as well. The way you do that is to give them all the facts and let them decide, intimidation is a really bad strategy and has backfired badly.

The only thing that is crazier is not telling people how to deal with Covid when they get it other than get tested and go to the hospital. It's a virus, you should be doing everything you can to boost your immune system with vitamins, exercise, and a properly prescribed dosage of Ivermectin in most cases. If you do that your odds of ending up in the hospital drop drastically which is a win for everyone. That's regardless of vax status btw and is good general health.

It really is like Dallas Buyers Club and that's really sad.


The vaccines don't chemically change your body. The entire premise of your argument is wrong. Of course, anti-intellectual post is loved by thr anti-vax crowd. If you don't understand the difference between a vaccine and a drug then you don't have a legitimate opinion. That's just a fact. The information is out there and readily accessible.
Out of all that you think word games about what is a "chemical" change to your body is the relevant point? A vaccine is designed to change your immune response by the injection of a substance into your body and getting your body to react in a different way to viral exposure. Sorry if that is anti intellectual to you.
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