Vaccine push after natural immunity?

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jlAG97
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7:55p, 9/12/21
Out of brief hospital stay for COVID, and told to get vaccine 30-60 days after as natural immunity will wear off.

Huh? Are there conclusive peer reviewed studies that show this? (vs hundreds of years of science and research showing natural immunity lasts a very long time after initial contraction of other diseases).

I know we are all going rounds on the vaccine but thought natural immunity length wasn't being disputed.
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8:11p, 9/12/21
Newoldarmy
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9:41p, 9/12/21
AG
Yeah, if you're averse to the vaccine I don't know about being sort of coerced into getting it unless the vaccines prevent infection with a strain you've not had.

In our house with Alpha four of the five of us got it. We were all sick except our 6 year old boy in December 2020/early January 2021, and though we made no effort to distance from him he never tested positive.

My wife and I don't ever want to have it or anything like it again, so I got the Moderna and she got J&J. 15 and 18 year old daughters and six year old boy got nothing as it looks like a wash to me risk wise vaccine v. Covid outcomes on kids.

6 year old starts school and gets it in week two and I assume it's Delta as they're saying that's the prevalent strain now. He's full blown positive when we figure it out because he's a rockbiter and you don't know if he's sick until he "goes off his feed" like livestock. Still running around destroying **** with 102 fever.

Anyway, we're all over him while he's positive along with the girls and none of us catches a sniffle. So, two previously infected, vaccinated adults and two previously infected, but unvaccinated teens were thoroughly exposed and though we tested a lot, never tested positive.

Completely anecdotal, but our experience.
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ramblin_ag02
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9:44p, 9/12/21
AG
The best immunity is a combination of infection and vaccination. We'd prefer people get vaccinated and then either not catch COVID or have a mild case after. For those who've had COVID and recovered, a round of vaccination afterward is the best defense.

I'm not giving people any grief for declining vaccination after confirmed infections. However, I see a ton of people who are 100% convinced they have had COVID despite never being tested while sick or being tested for antibodies. These people are all 100% convinced they have outstanding natural immunity right up until some of them end up in the hospital with delta. So I've been tending to just blanket recommend vaccines regardless
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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SanDiegoAg12
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10:14p, 9/12/21
AG
I believe Germany, France, and Italy only push one jab for those who previously defeated Covid.

The lack of investment and publicized pursuit of natural immunity is a major concern/issue of mine.
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Sandman98
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 12:18a, 9/13/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
The best immunity is a combination of infection and vaccination. We'd prefer people get vaccinated and then either not catch COVID or have a mild case after. For those who've had COVID and recovered, a round of vaccination afterward is the best defense.

I'm not giving people any grief for declining vaccination after confirmed infections. However, I see a ton of people who are 100% convinced they have had COVID despite never being tested while sick or being tested for antibodies. These people are all 100% convinced they have outstanding natural immunity right up until some of them end up in the hospital with delta. So I've been tending to just blanket recommend vaccines regardless


So because some people aren't very bright and assume they have antibodies you're going with a one size fits all solution. Seems super scientific. This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has everyone confused.
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PerpetualLurker
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7:16a, 9/13/21


Interesting discussion from virologists about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity for sars cov 2, and arguments for getting vaccinated after prior infection.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to Sandman98 • 7:21a, 9/13/21
AG
Sandman98 said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
The best immunity is a combination of infection and vaccination. We'd prefer people get vaccinated and then either not catch COVID or have a mild case after. For those who've had COVID and recovered, a round of vaccination afterward is the best defense.

I'm not giving people any grief for declining vaccination after confirmed infections. However, I see a ton of people who are 100% convinced they have had COVID despite never being tested while sick or being tested for antibodies. These people are all 100% convinced they have outstanding natural immunity right up until some of them end up in the hospital with delta. So I've been tending to just blanket recommend vaccines regardless


So because some people aren't very bright and assume they have antibodies you're going with a one size fits all solution. Seems super scientific. This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has everyone confused.


Right. Why not suggest an antibody test for those folks and depending on the outcome of that, make a recommendation.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Sea Speed • 8:29a, 9/13/21
AG
Quote:
Right. Why not suggest an antibody test for those folks and depending on the outcome of that, make a recommendation.
Because it's a waste of time and money? Why would I be trying to minimize the number of people I vaccinate? The vaccine is safe and improves the immunity of these who've already had COVID. There's almost no downside and a well documented upside. Not the mention that antibody tests aren't perfect and can turn negative after a few months.

Sometimes I think all you guys pushing for so much antibody testing own stock in lab companies
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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HossAg
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In reply to Sea Speed • 8:46a, 9/13/21
AG
I'm not sure why you'd go to the trouble of getting an antibody test instead of just getting vaccinated. It's not hard to walk into a Walgreens for 10 minutes and get the shot. Definitely quicker than going through the testing process.
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Teslag
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In reply to HossAg • 9:05a, 9/13/21
AG
HossAg said:
I'm not sure why you'd go to the trouble of getting an antibody test instead of just getting vaccinated. It's not hard to walk into a Walgreens for 10 minutes and get the shot. Definitely quicker than going through the testing process.

The Germans are using documented proof of recovery from a physician in lieu of a vaccine for most restricted activities. Seems like a good model to follow.
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HossAg
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In reply to Teslag • 9:17a, 9/13/21
AG
My point still stands. I don't see why someone would go to the effort to get an antibody test instead of just getting the vaccine.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to HossAg • 9:25a, 9/13/21
HossAg said:
My point still stands. I don't see why someone would go to the effort to get an antibody test instead of just getting the vaccine.

The virus only kills the old, fat and weak. Ergo if I had the virus and survived, my youth and vitality have been proven.
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beerad12man
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In reply to HossAg • 9:32a, 9/13/21
AG
HossAg said:
My point still stands. I don't see why someone would go to the effort to get an antibody test instead of just getting the vaccine.
Although rare, there are side effects of the vaccine. Are there any side effects of getting an antibody test? So while I'm neither personally scared of covid or the vaccine, I see the logic in not wanting to knowingly get both. If you know you have covid, why even take the 1 in 10,000 chance, or whatever it is, you get something like myocarditis, or any other side effect? Or even just making yourself sick for a weekend, which happens quite often and did to me? I wouldn't personally want to go through that, if I already had covid, without seeing real, scienfitic evidence that a healthy 35 year old who already beat covid can still noticeably benefit from real world data of having the shot, too. Just the 12 hour body aches alone would make me see that as almost not worth it.

I'm pretty pro vaccine, but I also understand the logic from those who have had covid who don't want to take the (extremely minor) extra risk. And FWIW, I would still personally get the vaccine in addition to natural immunity anyways. But I would be doing so more out of long term convenience just to shut others up than actually seeing a scientific benefit of it as a 35 year old healthy individual who already beat covid, whos is probably one of the least likely people to end up in the hospital at that point. So I completely understand those that wouldn't do it for that reason.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:48a, 9/13/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
Right. Why not suggest an antibody test for those folks and depending on the outcome of that, make a recommendation.

Sometimes I think all you guys pushing for so much antibody testing own stock in lab companies


As opposed to those who pump the vaccine and own stock in Moderna which has gone up about 600% in a year?

Come on man. Beerad summed up some great reasons for people who haven't had and don't want the vaccine. As with most things in life, there is not a one size fits all solution.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to beerad12man • 9:55a, 9/13/21
AG
Again, if you already have documentation of prior infection, then I wouldn't push the issue. What I see routinely is people that are "100% sure" they had it and have no proof. Those are the times I push vaccination anyway
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Sea Speed
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:59a, 9/13/21
AG
And what I said was why not have the antibody test done for those people? If they are hesitant and it comes back negative you have more ammo to convince them to get the vaccine. If they have antibodies then they shouldn't be forced in to getting a shot they dont want and/or need. Hell, tell em to give blood and they will get a free antibody test and everyone wins.
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HossAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:05a, 9/13/21
AG
And this is the scenario my posts were referring to.
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ramblin_ag02
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10:28a, 9/13/21
AG
IMHO, in those cases it's a waste of time and resources. If they was a vaccine shortage and we were guarding supply, then it would be a different story. If the vaccine cost more than the antibody test, then that would be a different story. If the vaccine was dangerious, then it would be a different story. As of now I have no reason to go to all that time and trouble to avoid giving a safe, effective, free, and freely available vaccine.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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HossAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:32a, 9/13/21
AG
This. It all boils down to an irrational fear of the vaccine, imo.
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Teslag
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 10:34a, 9/13/21
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
HossAg said:
My point still stands. I don't see why someone would go to the effort to get an antibody test instead of just getting the vaccine.

The virus only kills the old, fat and weak. Ergo if I had the virus and survived, my youth and vitality have been proven.

If we are really making decisions based on data and science, then wouldn't you agree there's very little reason for the documented recovered to get the vaccine?
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jlAG97
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10:58a, 9/13/21
I guess that's why I was a little confused, I know hospitals are making care decisions based on past/current studies, but I just haven't yet come across a study that shows COVID immunity wears off that quickly.
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GeographyAg
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11:28a, 9/13/21
AG
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.
If I’m posting, it’s actually Mrs GeographyAg.
Mr. GeographyAg is a dedicated lurker.
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Teslag
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In reply to GeographyAg • 11:39a, 9/13/21
AG
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.

The vaccine is also no guarantee you've got good immunity based on real world data and the efficacy studies.
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In reply to GeographyAg • 11:44a, 9/13/21
planoaggie123
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In reply to [removed post] • 11:45a, 9/13/21
AG
SoupNazi2001 said:
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.


Getting a vaccine is no guarantee of immunity either.

But natural immunity + full vaccination + 2 boosters will get you close.....
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TarponChaser
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In reply to GeographyAg • 11:51a, 9/13/21
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.

Maybe so.

Maybe that person is in fairly poor health. Maybe their immune system ain't great.

But there's numerous studies out there which point to natural immunity being both durable and more effective vs. Delta than the vaccines.
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GeographyAg
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In reply to [removed post] • 12:17p, 9/13/21
AG
SoupNazi2001 said:
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.


Getting a vaccine is no guarantee of immunity either.
I didn't say it was.

Everything I've read says the best immunity comes from vaccine + natural infection.

We've been vaccinated, so we hope that when we get our infection it will be pretty mild and provide us with even better immunity in the future.


I firmly believe every one of us will get Covid if we haven't already had it, and we'll probably all get exposed to it multiple times. The question is, will we be able to fight it or not? Some will, some won't. I'll take all the help I can get.

If I had already had a natural infection before the vaccines came along, I'd still get vaccinated, and I have several friends who have done so. It's the best way to fight future infections.

If I’m posting, it’s actually Mrs GeographyAg.
Mr. GeographyAg is a dedicated lurker.
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Tom Cardy
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In reply to Sandman98 • 1:13p, 9/13/21
AG
Sandman98 said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
The best immunity is a combination of infection and vaccination. We'd prefer people get vaccinated and then either not catch COVID or have a mild case after. For those who've had COVID and recovered, a round of vaccination afterward is the best defense.

I'm not giving people any grief for declining vaccination after confirmed infections. However, I see a ton of people who are 100% convinced they have had COVID despite never being tested while sick or being tested for antibodies. These people are all 100% convinced they have outstanding natural immunity right up until some of them end up in the hospital with delta. So I've been tending to just blanket recommend vaccines regardless


So because some people aren't very bright and assume they have antibodies you're going with a one size fits all solution. Seems super scientific. This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has everyone confused.
"Hey, I'm your doctor and I think you're stupid so go get vaccinated."

What could go wrong?
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In reply to GeographyAg • 1:16p, 9/13/21
dunlay
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In reply to Teslag • 1:28p, 9/13/21
AG
Salute The Marines said:
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.

The vaccine is also no guarantee you've got good immunity based on real world data and the efficacy studies.
Right. I got the jab and still got the wuhan virus... and it wasn't just a case of the sniffles either.
"Democracy: 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding one what to have for supper. Liberty: 2 wolves set on supper, and finding 1 well armed sheep."
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Tom Cardy • 1:49p, 9/13/21
AG
My patients are used to me by now. I don't pull punches or dance around hard topics. The people that like it really appreciate it. Those that don't like it go someone else
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GeographyAg
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In reply to [removed post] • 3:10p, 9/13/21
AG
SoupNazi2001 said:
GeographyAg said:
SoupNazi2001 said:
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.


Getting a vaccine is no guarantee of immunity either.
I didn't say it was.

Everything I've read says the best immunity comes from vaccine + natural infection.

We've been vaccinated, so we hope that when we get our infection it will be pretty mild and provide us with even better immunity in the future.


I firmly believe every one of us will get Covid if we haven't already had it, and we'll probably all get exposed to it multiple times. The question is, will we be able to fight it or not? Some will, some won't. I'll take all the help I can get.

If I had already had a natural infection before the vaccines came along, I'd still get vaccinated, and I have several friends who have done so. It's the best way to fight future infections.



Well I've had Covid. It was incredibly mild and I do not want or need additional protection from a vaccine. I also work out everyday and am in good health. Thanks for your concern though.
I don't care. I never said anything about forcing or mandating anyone. I'm not at all concerned about you. I'm fine with individuals taking chances with their health - their life, their choice. Get it, don't get it. Whatever.

I'm just pointing out that I have a friend who is in her late 30s, skinny, and in good health prior to covid, who has now had it twice and the second time was worse than the first. Anybody can take whatever point they'd like from that fact.
If I’m posting, it’s actually Mrs GeographyAg.
Mr. GeographyAg is a dedicated lurker.
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In reply to GeographyAg • 3:24p, 9/13/21
Dad
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In reply to GeographyAg • 3:27p, 9/13/21
AG
GeographyAg said:
I know at least two people who had covid twice (verified by tests both times). One much worse the second time, so having covid is no guarantee you've got good immunity.
I'm very pro-vaccine but I know a bunch of people that have had the vaccine and then got Covid. I know one person that has had Covid and then got it again and it was not bad enough to even consider going to the hospital.

Your anecdotal remark is useless, as is the one I just made.
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