AggieKatie2 said:

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CEO email made it fairly clear that a vaccine mandate is likely coming for our company.

Spouse was vaccinated several months ago, and other than feels lousy for a bit, had no issues.

Looking at current statistics for my age group:
- Likelihood of hospitalization from COVID per CDC is currently 7 in 100,000 (no need to be hospitalized is 99.93%....right?)
- <8000 deaths for individuals 30-39 years of age
- Just as likely to die of pneumonia (solely) as Covid per CDC numbers for age group
- Twice as likely to die as female in age group though

Universal US Comorbidities in Hospitalization
- 60% Hypertension
- 50% Obese
- 43% Metabolic Disease
- 36% Cadiovascular Disease

Pfizer study stats for test groups:
- .06% severe adverse reaction ID'd by FDA

Considering my age group, and lack of comorbidities, it would appear my likelihood of needing hospitalization or death from covid is equal to and less than my risk of a serious adverse reaction to the vaccine.

Why should I risk it other than to protect others?

Why isn't my employer mandating diet and exercise requirements based upon dominant comorbidities?

Trying to educate myself and address my concerns.

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just curious: what concerns do you have about getting the vaccine?

seems to me that the concerns of not getting the vaccine severely outweigh any concerns (if there even are any other than a couple of days of feeling lousy) of getting the vaccine.

still not understanding the logic behind not getting the vaccine, other than "my body my choice".

which is fine, but it doesn't seem like there is anything about the vaccine that would do any real harm.

covid on the other hand...

I'm not sure why but it seems you have got an axe to grind here. Maybe you should have your own company or be in a position to make decisions for a company, and then you can make different decisions.

For the record if it was workplace related we paid without charging them PTO. If it wasn't they were on their own PTO or short term disability as it may apply. Those also cost the company money - that's the P in PTO. And we also don't benefit from their production so now we pay twice, or in the case of not charging PTO three times. Still less expensive than having to shut down a production site, or floor, or bay because of an outbreak, which we also had to do.

It's like you don't want to accept that this is a real thing that is having a real impact. We've never had 12 employees hospitalized in a single year in total, much less all from one thing.

I only have axe to grind with the CDC policies that put companies like yours and hourly workers like yours behind the eight ball financially. During these last 18 months it has often been the lower skilled workers that have had to carry the burden (e.g. no WFH, wage reduction, needing to use PTO to pay bills while in quarantine) of management decisions based on somehow both wildly inconsistent + one-size-fits-all policy recommendations.

Statistically it is pretty likely our hourly workers make more than you. Many of them make more than me.

I happen to think our management policies did a great job of balancing risk to our internal production / throughput, managing our customer's expectations about safety and protecting their production sites, managing our employee's expectations about workplace safety, managing workplace morale, and doing our damndest to prevent significant workplace transmission - all while laying off exactly zero people, and having excellent financial performance. You got a beef, take it up with your company's subpar management. Our management team kicked ass.

The point is - real risk to production / operations. Real risk to personnel. Real risk of workplace transmission. Far higher on all of these than the flu has ever been for us. That's my gut feel and our internal data more than bears that out.

planoaggie123 said:

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And this seems like the best option for COVID.

Make the flu shots and COVID shots available in office. Maybe consider either J&J to keep COVID a one-time deal in office but I am sure having 2 rounds would not be a deal breaker.

We have had flu shots in our office for the past 5 years. Makes it easy and while there is zero pressure to do it I think having a lot of people getting it makes it "easier" for others to do.

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I agree. If getting the flu shot is easy for me, I do it. If I miss a year it's because opportunity didn't readily present.

cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

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On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

I'm firmly in the it's dumb not to be vaccinated camp, but I truly don't get this. Why would that upset you?

bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

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On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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Are you aware that vaccinated people can and do become viremic and shed the virus?

bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

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On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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Why? You are vaccinated, what are you afraid of? Also, you are just as likely to carry a viral load, and be asymptomatic, as an unvaccinated person.

bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

---

On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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This is psychosis. So sad what has happened to people because of our reaction to COVID. I hope this country can overcome this.

TX_COWDOC said:

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bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

---

On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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Are you aware that vaccinated people can and do become viremic and shed the virus?

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I am. Are you aware it happens at a significantly reduced rate as opposed to spread by the unvaccinated?
It is not equivalent, do not pretend it is.

SoupNazi2001 said:

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bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

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On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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Wow silly and not backed by logic. Vaccinated individuals carry the same viral load.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/double-jabbed-people-carry-same-140126657.html

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However they don't have Covid at the same percentages so it's less likely I get it from a vaccinated person then an unvaccinated person. You people are just plain obtuse about this.

bay fan said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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Are you aware that vaccinated people can and do become viremic and shed the virus?

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I am. Are you aware it happens at a significantly reduced rate as opposed to spread by the unvaccinated?
It is not equivalent, do not pretend it is.

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Happy to read up on it. Please share the study you're basing this on.

redcrayon said:

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bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

---

On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

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This is psychosis. So sad what has happened to people because of our reaction to COVID. I hope this country can overcome this.

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So you object to me choosing to reduce odds of being infected and the chance (read the other thread with 4 healthy, middle aged members, all younger then I, who have spent WEEKS in the hospital) of being hospitalized. It's common sense to me, I don't want to spend my out of pocket maximum for the fun of hospitalization or even being off work for several weeks quarantined at home.

Why should I meet with an unvaccinated person in a small conference room when Zoom is fine for my purposes? Also, this is person is a support to my role, the meeting was ancillary at best.

TX_COWDOC said:

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bay fan said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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Are you aware that vaccinated people can and do become viremic and shed the virus?

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I am. Are you aware it happens at a significantly reduced rate as opposed to spread by the unvaccinated?
It is not equivalent, do not pretend it is.

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Happy to read up on it. Please share the study you're basing this on.

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwim3eGgyOPyAhVrh-AKHY0TA9cQFnoECDMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2021%2F08%2F24%2Fcdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html&usg=AOvVaw3DKhquGEKHWiBl2VQXg19o

Here you go. Second bullet point, unvaccinated people 5 times more likely to be infected. However I doubt anyone who needs proof of this will accept data from the CDC.

bay fan said:

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redcrayon said:

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bay fan said:

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cowenlaw said:

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As an employer these are tough decisions.

My management team had heated discussions about whether to mandate the vaccine. My CMO is an anti-vaxxer and would probably have left the firm had we required vaccination. Others on the management team argued in favor of mandatory vaccinations. As the business owner I had to make the final decision.

At the end of the day I did not feel that I had the right to order an employee to get vaccinated, so I made vaccination optional even though I personally encouraged it.

Out of 30 employees 7 did chose not to vaccinate. One of those 7 died last week from Covid. Another chose to get vaccinated after her co-worker's death.

While I personally wish the other 5 would get vaccinated I still do not believe that I have the moral right to force them. I'm also unwilling to risk losing one of my best employees over the issue.

---

On the flip side, I had a meeting in my office this week in a small conference room and I later found out the person I met with was not vaccinated. I was not pleased. I would NOT meet with an unvaccinated person in a small closed environment and I feel betrayed by lack of policies in my office. There needs to be transparency by policy if someone makes the choice to be unvaccinated, I want to make the choice not to meet in person with them.

---

This is psychosis. So sad what has happened to people because of our reaction to COVID. I hope this country can overcome this.

---

So you object to me choosing to reduce odds of being infected and the chance (read the other thread with 4 healthy, middle aged members, all younger then I, who have spent WEEKS in the hospital) of being hospitalized. It's common sense to me, I don't want to spend my out of pocket maximum for the fun of hospitalization or even being off work for several weeks quarantined at home.

Why should I meet with an unvaccinated person in a small conference room when Zoom is fine for my purposes? Also, this is person is a support to my role, the meeting was ancillary at best.

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So do you doubt the efficacy of your vaccine or what?

bay fan said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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bay fan said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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Are you aware that vaccinated people can and do become viremic and shed the virus?

---

I am. Are you aware it happens at a significantly reduced rate as opposed to spread by the unvaccinated?
It is not equivalent, do not pretend it is.

---

Happy to read up on it. Please share the study you're basing this on.

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwim3eGgyOPyAhVrh-AKHY0TA9cQFnoECDMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2021%2F08%2F24%2Fcdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html&usg=AOvVaw3DKhquGEKHWiBl2VQXg19o

Here you go. Second bullet point, unvaccinated people 5 times more likely to be infected. However I doubt anyone who needs proof of this will accept data from the CDC.

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You're generalizing the results of a study from a single county?

Quote:

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A study found that unvaccinated people in Los Angeles County were 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 than the fully vaccinated, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

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Oh, and speaking of people being obtuse

Quote:

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Still, the research also showed that vaccines are not perfect at preventing COVID-19 as breakthrough cases continue to emerge.

The study, spanning May 1 to July 25, documented more than 43,000 COVID-19 infections in the county among residents aged 16 and older. About a quarter of these cases occurred among the fully vaccinated, 3.3 percent among the partially vaccinated and 71.4 percent among the unvaccinated.

The effectiveness of the vaccine also has apparently slipped amid the delta variant. The data showed at the beginning of the study unvaccinated people were eight times as likely to contract COVID-19 than the fully vaccinated. That dropped to nearly five times as likely by July 25.

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I have been thinking that maybe an employer could give a variety of options but still do what they can to help prevent the spread of covid-19 in their workplace. If someone is too afraid to be vaccinated or can't be vaccinated for whatever reason, then they can wear a mask. If they say they can't wear a mask all day, then they can get tested very regularly, every few days.

I wish we would also do the same for schools. I have heard people say that the UK doesn't vaccinate teens or have young kids wear masks, but they are implementing other precautions like regular testing and quarantining. The refusal to do absolutely anything is really strange to me. In my area, an unvaccinated teen died yesterday from covid, and the news reports say that she did not have a previous health issue. I'm sure many will say she's an anomaly, but you would feel differently if it was your child. I know I would, and I would wonder why people weren't willing to do at least one small thing to try to help control the spread.

Nobody said the vaccine is perfect, it's not some big Gotcha. If I thought the vaccine was perfect, I wouldn't th ave issue being stuck in a small indoor space with someone who doesn't make the same choices I do.

bay fan said:

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Nobody said the vaccine is perfect, it's not some big Gotcha. If I thought the vaccine was perfect, I wouldn't th ave issue being stuck in a small indoor space with someone who doesn't make the same choices I do.

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So you're ok with getting the virus as long as it comes from "someone who makes the same choices you do?"

bay fan said:

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Nobody said the vaccine is perfect, it's not some big Gotcha. If I thought the vaccine was perfect, I wouldn't th ave issue being stuck in a small indoor space with someone who doesn't make the same choices I do.

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You are going to be exposed to a significant amount of people that are vaccinated and have a high viral load. There is also a significant chance you will contract covid by the end of the year. We need to accept these realities.