Multiple Things Can Be True at the same time.

2,281 Views | 20 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by RandyAg98
RandyAg98
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AG
Multiple things can be true:

1. Most of the masks do very little (properly fitted N95 the exception), and mask mandates are government overreach. The mask has become a virtue signal...mostly theater, and in some people a religion.

2. The vaccine works. Not as well at preventing infection or illness, like it was supposed to. Mostly because of the Delta Variant. But there is STRONG evidence that vaccinated people are FAR FAR less likely to be hospitalized, and even less likely to die. Not impossible, but LESS LIKELY. Why is that not a good thing? but I fully support anyone's right to not get the vaccine if they don't want to.

3. It seems like the goalposts are moving... because they are. That's the way science works. This is a NOVEL virus (with, in my opinion, nefarious origins). We learn as we go. Things change. Viruses mutate. Always have, always will. generally, over time, to become more contagious and cause less severe illness.

4. It is a damn shame that this has become so political. Masks, vaccines, shutting down businesses...all political footballs that divide us. It has gotten to the point that you have to be on one side or the other, and there is no middle ground. No doubt at all that many are using the pandemic for political gain and fear-mongering to achieve that goal. The media is often complicit. Disregarded Ivermectin and HCQ from the beginning, mostly because it was suggested by mostly conservatives. Just odd the politics nowadays.

5. The virus is not the flu. My employee's stepfather, 50s, great health, died after 2 weeks on a vent. Pre-vaccine. A HS friend, 40s, spent three weeks in the hospital and barely avoided intubation. College best friend, 40s, not obese, no underlying health issues, anti-vax, just got off the ventilator. By a miracle of God he is one of the few to survive being on a vent. One of the last things he texted me before he had to go to the hospital, after having a fever for 8 days in a row, was "in hindsight, I wish I had gotten vaccinated. Once Im am over this, I think I will get it". I was vaccinated (Pfizer) in April. More overweight than my college buddy, but no other health issues...Tested positive the same day as him in fact. One day of fever, chills, back to normal the next day and never looked back. I have personally seen the effect of loved ones being on death's door and family unable to even see them or hold their hand. It is heartbreaking.

So frustrating that this has become a political game instead of rational skepticism leading to following actual science. "Follow the Science" has even become a political meme.

Rant over.
KidDoc
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AG
Accurate post.

You can add natural immunity (in addition to HCQ & ivermectin) as something the leftest like to ignore for some odd reason, although it is being studied pretty extensively. (From what I have read on Ivermectin I think it is going to turn out to have minimal benefit sadly but it is not a high risk intervention).

I love how the pro-mask mandate people like to scream about following the science when there is no science supporting the efficacy of widespread mask use especially in young children.
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St Hedwig Aggie
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Hate to break it to you OP, but the political divisiveness you allude to, will only intensify and get worse.

Unavoidable.
Make Mental Asylums Great Again!
Forum Troll
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Quote:

Multiple things can be true
Lies. It is only black or white. There is no in between. Either you believe COVID is aerosolized Ebola or a weak ass flu wannabe. Take the exact opposite stance of your political opponent/rival on all issues, no matter how stupid that stance is.
wildcat08
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AG
Great post.
fightingfarmer09
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The goalposts are moving not because of science, it is entirely political.

If it were science all of these mandates would be non existent because they are largely meaningless other than political tools.
RandyAg98
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fightingfarmer09 said:

The goalposts are moving not because of science, it is entirely political.

If it were science all of these mandates would be non existent because they are largely meaningless other than political tools.
I think it is both. No doubt much of it is political...but that works both ways. I was mostly referring to:

1. Study shows breakthrough infections in vaccinated people are possible, and they can still spread it.

2. Response: SEE! tHe VacCiNeS Don'T wORk!!!

3. Response: But it DOES significantly reduce your chances of dying.

4. Response: GoalPost Mover!
GAC06
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AG
People at risk should get vaccinated, masks and pretty much every other mandate and restriction have been theatrical nonsense.
Midland Aggie
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KidDoc said:

Accurate post.

You can add natural immunity (in addition to HCQ & ivermectin) as something the leftest like to ignore for some odd reason, although it is being studied pretty extensively. (From what I have read on Ivermectin I think it is going to turn out to have minimal benefit sadly but it is not a high risk intervention).

I love how the pro-mask mandate people like to scream about following the science when there is no science supporting the efficacy of widespread mask use especially in young children.
Thank you Doctor. I can't understand why Natural Immunity has been and continues to be ignored. I believe there are many doctors who share your opinion but are afraid to say so publicly.
Dr. Peter McCullough with Texas A&M Med School has done extensive research on Covid19 vaccine and Natural Immunity. He is worth looking up. There are many youtube videos of him making his case.
RandyAg98
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Quote:

You can add natural immunity (in addition to HCQ & ivermectin) as something the leftest like to ignore for some odd reason, although it is being studied pretty extensively
Good point. Definitely odd that some people want to tell us natural (Humoral and Cell-mediated) immunity doesn't work.
aggiemike02
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AG
West Point Aggie said:

Hate to break it to you OP, but the political divisiveness you allude to, will only intensify and get worse.

Unavoidable.
why? every single one of us that consciously decides to rise above it and work against divisiveness can get us past this now 'normal' part of life. its not normal and we can change that.
Knucklesammich
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It's gotten to the point that of politics comes on tv I turn the channel. If it's mentioned in conversation I exit the conversation immediately. It's both sides.

COVID, like everything else it seems is a political football to be tossed around.

Great post OP
reed13
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AG
Not that my opinion matters much, but I have some friends that have natural immunity and I have no problem with that. I think what a lot of people have an issue with is people whose immune systems are COVID-naive and unvaccinated. I certainly agree that that is their prerogative and right to be that way. But, anecdotally, some of my very close family members who are ER docs are exhausted from the onslaught of unvaccinated patients. Folks with natural immunity and vaccinated patients seem to very rarely be admitted to the hospital. I think if I had natural immunity (I am Moderna fully-vaxed, never had it, fingers crossed it stays that way), I would probably get the J&J just to give an extra boost of immunity and so I could travel.

Like the OP said, it's a real shame this has gotten so politicized and there is a lot of blame to go around.
FriscoKid
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AG
I also think pushing the vaccine has had a detrimental effect on acceptance too. People are not getting the shot out of spite at this point. I've liked KidDoc's take on this thing for months now FWIW.

The endless mask and vaccine mandates are just madness though. If we thought of the vaccine as a pre-infection therapeutic then I think that would be more accurate of what it is actually doing.
Nasreddin
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They made it political the second they tried forcing Americans. They made it political by silencing any opposing speech on social media.
The Covidian is a strange sort: he both relies on “science” and ignores it. Perhaps because it’s not “science” at all, but rather just the TV.
500,000ags
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The funny thing to me is how we disagree on everything because we chose sides. Yet, statistically, my side can't be right about everything. That's statistically impossible. So at best, everyone should be asking, what is my side wrong about?
eric76
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KidDoc said:

Accurate post.

You can add natural immunity (in addition to HCQ & ivermectin) as something the leftest like to ignore for some odd reason, although it is being studied pretty extensively. (From what I have read on Ivermectin I think it is going to turn out to have minimal benefit sadly but it is not a high risk intervention).

I love how the pro-mask mandate people like to scream about following the science when there is no science supporting the efficacy of widespread mask use especially in young children.
I saw something that said that Ivermectin may have some use, but only if taken very soon after symptoms appear.

Does that seem reasonable?
KidDoc
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eric76 said:

KidDoc said:

Accurate post.

You can add natural immunity (in addition to HCQ & ivermectin) as something the leftest like to ignore for some odd reason, although it is being studied pretty extensively. (From what I have read on Ivermectin I think it is going to turn out to have minimal benefit sadly but it is not a high risk intervention).

I love how the pro-mask mandate people like to scream about following the science when there is no science supporting the efficacy of widespread mask use especially in young children.
I saw something that said that Ivermectin may have some use, but only if taken very soon after symptoms appear.

Does that seem reasonable?
I've talked to three infectious disease docs in the last 2 weeks and they all agree the data coming to publish in the next 2 weeks shows ivermectin to not be very effective at all-- marginal at best. Low risk intervention but the problem is people want to believe they can just wait until they get sick then take Ivermectin (or HCQ or vitamins or xxx) and not worry about vaccine and that just is not holding up under large data sets.

No real harm in trying it early on positive patients but not likely to help much if at all unfortunately. At least it doesn't have the cardiac arrythmia risk of HCQ + Azithro so that is a positive.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
cc_ag92
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AG
This contributes to the divide. Why does it have to be "leftists" instead of some people?

I have several left-leaning friends who haven't gotten vaccinated because they have had Covid. I have a very conservative friend who is freaked out by the vaccine but also double mask with an N-95 and something else (I don't even know) because she is so upset that others aren't wearing masks.

I know some extremists on both sides who view it as very black and white, but most people I know are capable of seeing shades of gray.
Bonfired
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cc_ag92 said:

This contributes to the divide. Why does it have to be "leftists" instead of some people?

I have several left-leaning friends who haven't gotten vaccinated because they have had Covid. I have a very conservative friend who is freaked out by the vaccine but also double mask with an N-95 and something else (I don't even know) because she is so upset that others aren't wearing masks.

I know some extremists on both sides who view it as very black and white, but most people I know are capable of seeing shades of gray.


Some people are more health-anxious than others, and that knows no party ideology.
coolerguy12
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AG
I agree with all your points except #3. Yes the goalposts are moving but it has nothing to do with the science changing. It is 100% due to the politicians sticking their noses in everything.

Early on Trump slowed down travel from China and is called a xenophobic while Pelosi hosts "hug an Asian day" in China town and then a few weeks later everyone freaks out that Trump isn't doing enough to slow the spread. Lies, lies, and more lies are what made this political and what has caused so many people to dig in against any measures whatsoever.

For the record, I think the vaccines are great and anyone that is in a higher risk category should get one if they feel inclined. I don't think anyone should be forced or coerced through fear of losing a job or social standing to get the vaccine.
RandyAg98
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Quote:

I agree with all your points except #3. Yes the goalposts are moving but it has nothing to do with the science changing. It is 100% due to the politicians sticking their noses in everything.
I think it is both.

Quote:

For the record, I think the vaccines are great and anyone that is in a higher risk category should get one if they feel inclined. I don't think anyone should be forced or coerced through fear of losing a job or social standing to get the vaccine.
"Higher Risk" is changing definitions every day. Many more seemingly "healthy" 40s and 50s people are getting very, very sick...the VAST majority unvaccinated. I know 4 personally, all in the past 2 months. This is no longer a severe illness only to Old, Fat Diabetics.

I agree that mandates and coersion are ridiculous and counter to what our country stands for. We are not Australia.
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