Also, I'm not sure this is going to be a winning political issue for the republicans for much longer. I was the only person without a mask in the Houston area Costco I went to this morning. In general I've seen a ton more masks around Texas than I expected.
What are the metrics that "end this"?
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Last: 3 yr ago by AggieIce
They aren't a card but you sure as hell played them like they are. There are sick people and kids with compromised immune systems and sadly, there always will be.
Are you advocating that everyone should adopt the same preventative and mitigative measures as the most vulnerable? Or do you acknowledge that those suffering with these ailments should adopt more stringent safeguards for themselves and their families?
My argument is not against taking the vaccine - it is against forcing people to take the vaccine and using vaccination status as some sort of social credit score, as you and several others on here have demonstrated it is already being done, i.e., "the greater good for society".
Are you advocating that everyone should adopt the same preventative and mitigative measures as the most vulnerable? Or do you acknowledge that those suffering with these ailments should adopt more stringent safeguards for themselves and their families?
My argument is not against taking the vaccine - it is against forcing people to take the vaccine and using vaccination status as some sort of social credit score, as you and several others on here have demonstrated it is already being done, i.e., "the greater good for society".
DaveAg02 said:ttha_aggie_09 said:If it is logical, are you willing to acknowledge natural immunity and the equal (possibly even superior) benefit it provides to the vaccine?DaveAg02 said:ttha_aggie_09 said:And that is the beauty of living where we do... we're all able to make decisions on our own, without a gun to our head. I'm sure Australia or much of Europe would welcome you with open arms.DaveAg02 said:
Not making an argument, just sharing a reality. The cumulative impact of millions of so-called personal decisions is a public impact. So, your decision is a public one. As is mine and everyone else's.
Are you going to hold this much vitriol towards people when they're vaccinated and still infect others around them? It is already happening and I am curious how the goal posts are going to be moved, yet again.
Yes, I will probably still have zero vitriol, as this is not an emotional nor political topic for me, but a logical one. I think if you look at my post, you'll see that I don't really care if infections are rising and falling. Vaccinated people don't tend to need hospitalization. That's the primary concern, and has been since literally the very beginning of the pandemic. Slow the spread, flatten the curve to keep the Healthcare system from breaking. It didn't happen in NYC, and people who could have lived didn't. That's what I would like to see, clearer hospitals. Same goal posts as March, 2020.
I am not trying to make any of this political or emotional... you're the one playing the "think of the sick children card" and quite frankly, it is grotesque. It is absolutely what is wrong with the messaging about this virus and why so many people are reinforced of their beliefs that this vaccine contains something nefarious.
I am not one of those people, for the record.
The sick children aren't a card, they are a reality. If your argument against taking a vaccine is that people who are susceptible have the choice to get it, it's important to note that a lot of people who are susceptible don't have the option.
There aren't enough to statistically matter. And that's what is infuriating. We claim to be basing decisions on science and data, but we ignore it at whatever whim we need to whenever we need to. That's what I want clearly defined metrics and not histrionics or anecdotes.
ttha_aggie_09 said:
They aren't a card but you sure as hell played them like they are. There are sick people and kids with compromised immune systems and sadly, there always will be.
Are you advocating that everyone should adopt the same preventative and mitigative measures as the most vulnerable? Or do you acknowledge that those suffering with these ailments should adopt more stringent safeguards for themselves and their families?
My argument is not against taking the vaccine - it is against forcing people to take the vaccine and using vaccination status as some sort of social credit score, as you and several others on here have demonstrated it is already being done, i.e., "the greater good for society".
I think we should consider that the best prevention is not available for many of those who are vulnerable. I think we should consider that the hospitals are overwhelmed. The OP's question was when will it end. I said it will end when enough get vaccinated that those aren't concerns anymore.
I will also note that I haven't advocated for any social credit score. Only a critical mass making the decision to help. I would also consider that there are a lot of people for whom the vaccination is not an option. I don't want them left out of society either.
Spudman said:And that percentage of the population with natural immunity for which the vaccine is not only unnecessary but potentially harmful, what say you about that group?Ranger222 said:
Here is the road map for everyone --
It is expected in September that the vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) will become approved by the FDA.
Also in September, the vaccination age will also be extended to include more children, potentially everyone 5 and older.
At that time, you're going to see vaccine requirements all over the place. You may not want to believe it, but it will happen. Jobs, schools, colleges, etc. That will push the vaccination rate to where it needs (and should be).
Once some time has passed that will allow children and any adult hold-outs to be vaccinated (2-3 months) to receive both doses of the vaccine, then many of the mitigation requirements (masks, social distancing) will be lifted. Being conservative, by January 2022.
Like I said its all about vaccination rate. They wanted to lift restrictions once vaccination rates reached a certain % (70-80), but it never got there. We failed. Instead we lifted anyway due to low infection and hospitalization rates (as we should have). The delta variant and new wave of infections changed the game. Now we are back to vaccination rate and it will now be forced. That's the reality.
I have the antibodies. Why in the hell should if be forced to get the vaccine??
I continue to remain frustrated that this relatively considerable segment of the population routinely (and seemingly purposefully) gets ignored.
If you have had COVID, you still need the vaccine. This has been covered many times and I have posted on this very forum before scientific literature that shows that is the case. It was known pre-COVID with how the body's immune system works. This is not new.
In your body's first encounter with a pathogen, an immune response is mounted. However, that immune response is fairly lackluster and is not honed. Upon the body's second encounter with a pathogen, your body starts selecting for the best antibodies and other immune cells to use against the pathogen for future encounters. Log fold higher antibodies are produced as a response. Your body is now ready and prepared to encounter that pathogen multiple more times.
This is why there are two doses of the vaccine. Its in that second exposure that really gets the body and body's natural immune system locked in to fighting that specific pathogen going forward. There are several published studies out there that show people with prior exposure to COVID have a weaker antibody response (titers and neutralization) compared to those with both vaccine doses. People that have had confirmed COVID before still need to get the vaccine to get a booster for their immune system (a theoretical second dose). In line with this, data shows that the 2nd dose of vaccine for these individuals doesn't do much.
The vaccine for prior COVID individuals is not unnecessary and is not harmful.
DC health officials hope the indoor mask mandate can be dropped by Thanksgiving — but that may not be possible if the numbers don’t improve. https://t.co/I4hCjlAkuA
— NBCWashington (@nbcwashington) August 10, 2021
lol at lifting mask mandates going into cold and flu
You make good points. And yes there are large demographics of people who havent gotten vaccinated out of a justified distrust of the government. These are the minority groups people often refer to since so much attention is given to the political right.Beat40 said:Here's what I don't like about calling people selfish for not getting the vaccine. The narrative is that it's one party who is refusing to get it. The reality is there are multiple parties not getting it.larry culpepper said:I have been very pessimistic but one reason for optimism is I truly do not believe that half of the country is anti-vax. They are just the most vocal. There is a significant portion of the country that just never got the vaccine, either out of apathy or ignorance on how to get it. Now those numbers are increasing due to the delta spike. This is anecdotal but my brother as well as some friends I know have recently gotten the first dose. They were never against the vaccine, i guess they just put it off for whatever reason and now they are getting it.Forum Troll said:larry culpepper said:
I agree. I am anxiously awaiting FDA approval because I think that will make a meaningful difference.
The vaccine refusal goalposts will just be moved. Maybe a few get it due to FDA approval, but it won't be noticeable imo.
Hopefully you are right and I am wrong.
In reality, there is a group of people who are not getting the vaccine because they don't trust the government with healthcare because of very real, bad historical dealings with the government and healthcare. That is a very tough uphill battle, and I don't blame them for being skeptical.
My takeaway in all of this is the vaccine works - I got it more for my Dad than I did myself, I hope others do get it to keep themselves safe, but I'm not going to degrade them for not getting it because some people have some legitimate reasons for not getting it, where we think they are legitimate or not.
This public shaming of people is seriously the dumbest messaging from leaders - it makes people dig in more than anything else.
But the right wing of American politics is given a lot of attention here because those views are dominant among posters on Texags. And I'm sorry, but I do see their views as selfish. They dont seem to grasp the idea that to defeat covid we have to work together and do things not just for ourselves but for others. Either that or they scoff at it and call you soft for believing that. Like you said, you got vaccinated more so for your parents than for yourself. I am the same. Getting vaccinated is more that just an individual decision, it's a compassionate decision and is the least a person can do to help stop the spread.
I mean, just take a look over at f16 at a given time. It's nonstop anger over anything related to covid. There was a thread last week of posters raising hell over A&M's covid policy of requiring students to be tested. They see it as a disgusting infringement of freedom, and they cannot grasp the idea (or they scoff at the idea) that universities need to stay informed on their covid numbers so they can take appropriate measures to stop the spread of the virus. None of that matters to those people. It's all about me, me, me, me, me. If we spread the virus, that's our right. It's pure selfishness, and sadly many of them have been that way since covid first broke out.
cone said:DC health officials hope the indoor mask mandate can be dropped by Thanksgiving — but that may not be possible if the numbers don’t improve. https://t.co/I4hCjlAkuA
— NBCWashington (@nbcwashington) August 10, 2021
lol at lifting mask mandates going into cold and flu
"small sacrifices"
This is the kind of stuff that is pushing people away from real help like the vaccines.
larry culpepper said:You make good points. And yes there are large demographics of people who havent gotten vaccinated out of a justified distrust of the government. These are the minority groups people often refer to since so much attention is given to the political right.Beat40 said:Here's what I don't like about calling people selfish for not getting the vaccine. The narrative is that it's one party who is refusing to get it. The reality is there are multiple parties not getting it.larry culpepper said:I have been very pessimistic but one reason for optimism is I truly do not believe that half of the country is anti-vax. They are just the most vocal. There is a significant portion of the country that just never got the vaccine, either out of apathy or ignorance on how to get it. Now those numbers are increasing due to the delta spike. This is anecdotal but my brother as well as some friends I know have recently gotten the first dose. They were never against the vaccine, i guess they just put it off for whatever reason and now they are getting it.Forum Troll said:larry culpepper said:
I agree. I am anxiously awaiting FDA approval because I think that will make a meaningful difference.
The vaccine refusal goalposts will just be moved. Maybe a few get it due to FDA approval, but it won't be noticeable imo.
Hopefully you are right and I am wrong.
In reality, there is a group of people who are not getting the vaccine because they don't trust the government with healthcare because of very real, bad historical dealings with the government and healthcare. That is a very tough uphill battle, and I don't blame them for being skeptical.
My takeaway in all of this is the vaccine works - I got it more for my Dad than I did myself, I hope others do get it to keep themselves safe, but I'm not going to degrade them for not getting it because some people have some legitimate reasons for not getting it, where we think they are legitimate or not.
This public shaming of people is seriously the dumbest messaging from leaders - it makes people dig in more than anything else.
But the right wing of American politics is given a lot of attention here because those views are dominant among posters on Texags. And I'm sorry, but I do see their views as selfish. They dont seem to grasp the idea that to defeat covid we have to work together and do things not just for ourselves but for others. Either that or they scoff at it and call you soft for believing that. Like you said, you got vaccinated more so for your parents than for yourself. I am the same. Getting vaccinated is more that just an individual decision, it's a compassionate decision and is the least a person can do to help stop the spread.
I mean, just take a look over at f16 at a given time. It's nonstop anger over anything related to covid. There was a thread last week of posters raising hell over A&M's covid policy of requiring students to be tested. They see it as a disgusting infringement of freedom, and they cannot grasp the idea (or they scoff at the idea) that universities need to stay informed on their covid numbers so they can take appropriate measures to stop the spread of the virus. None of that matters to those people. It's all about me, me, me, me, me. If we spread the virus, that's our right. It's pure selfishness, and sadly many of them have been that way since covid first broke out.
As they should be. The idea of personal liberty is ingrained upon many people. You can call it whatever you want, but you'll never get anywhere demonizing it. I got vaccinated. But not once, nor will I ever, believe I'm "in this together" with anyone.
both sides of the spectrum have been bat**** insane
yes i'll go to the both sides well
there's just no appetite whatsoever for clear-eyed risk-reward discussion
yes i'll go to the both sides well
there's just no appetite whatsoever for clear-eyed risk-reward discussion
f16 board is a low point of society and an even lower point along the IQ bell curve.
cone said:
both sides of the spectrum have been bat**** insane
yes i'll go to the both sides well
there's just no appetite whatsoever for clear-eyed risk-reward discussion
Risk reward is a good point and one that no one seems to want to discuss. It is definitely part of any discussion on "ending this".
Some people in our society will have to remain at risk at some point. We need to decide where that line is.
You and I just have fundamentally different views then. And that's a major problem I have with American culture in general, scoffing at the idea of being courteous to others and seeking out the collective good. It's gotten to the point where we don't only not care about that as a society, but we see it is a negative. And I think that's a deep reason why we've had such a hard time getting covid under control.Quote:
As they should be. The idea of personal liberty is ingrained upon many people. You can call it whatever you want, but you'll never get anywhere demonizing it. I got vaccinated. But not once, nor will I ever, believe I'm "in this together" with anyone.
Cyp0111 said:
f16 board is a low point of society and an even lower point along the IQ bell curve.
I'm sure we are all in total awe of your IQ.
i like when you start talking to good serious people about pandemic mitigation and they think we're all in the trust tree together when you say how amazing these vaccines are and the sort of tremendous breakthrough they represent and how cautious we probably should be about spread and personal responsibility
and then you say something like it doesn't seem like masks work well if at all and the only way left for this is through (with vaccines to blunt the damage) and they look at you like you betrayed their trust
damn near automatic
and then you say something like it doesn't seem like masks work well if at all and the only way left for this is through (with vaccines to blunt the damage) and they look at you like you betrayed their trust
damn near automatic
i'd argue that institutional trust was obliterated years before covid and we're seeing first order effects in a real at-home crisis nowQuote:
And I think that's a deep reason why we've had such a hard time getting covid under control.
That board is what it is. the creatures that live there are what they are
cone said:i'd argue that institutional trust was obliterated years before covid and we're seeing first order effects in a real at-home crisis nowQuote:
And I think that's a deep reason why we've had such a hard time getting covid under control.
Another fantastic point. You can't demonize and denigrate subset of people for years then run to them hat in hand and expect them to trust you.
There will be so much research done and books written on this exact issue when covid is all said and done. But I listened to a freakanomics podcast recently that dug into how certain countries' cultures influenced their covid responses. It was pretty interesting.cone said:i'd argue that institutional trust was obliterated years before covid and we're seeing first order effects in a real at-home crisis nowQuote:
And I think that's a deep reason why we've had such a hard time getting covid under control.
we used to be a high trust society, coming relatively unscathed from the second world war, having supplied unparalleled material to the allies and having developed legit super weapons
outside of the (increasingly walled off) upper middle class, we are a low trust society, earned in some respects, imported in others
outside of the (increasingly walled off) upper middle class, we are a low trust society, earned in some respects, imported in others
. . . and fomented and fertilized on your favorite infotainment news station. . .
cone said:
we used to be a high trust society, coming relatively unscathed from the second world war, having supplied unparalleled material to the allies and having developed legit super weapons
outside of the (increasingly walled off) upper middle class, we are a low trust society, earned in some respects, imported in others
Taking away liability from vaccine manufacturers caused a huge erosion of trust that I'm not sure we will be able to overcome without the act's repeal.
why would that not be offset by the 100s of millions of doses administered?
cone said:
why would that not be offset by the 100s of millions of doses administered?
It would be naive to think that 100s of millions of administered doses would counteract that. Big pharma has paid out billions for non-vaccine related drugs. If they are paying out that kind of money for things they are liable for, many will question the vaccines that they aren't liable for. It's just the way it is.
I would say that the damage to the Pfizer brand would be incalculable for something this high profile
cone said:
I would say that the damage to the Pfizer brand would be incalculable for something this high profile
Pfizer doesn't care. The media and big tech will do their dirty work and suppress any issues.
like i said
the lack of institutional trust goes far beyond suspicions regarding product liability
the lack of institutional trust goes far beyond suspicions regarding product liability
What others products would you buy and use with the understanding that the producer has zero liability or accountability for the safety of their product.
Zero consumer protection is offered, and you must consent to fully understanding such prior to being allowed to purchase and use said product.
A car, a meal, a drink?
Zero consumer protection is offered, and you must consent to fully understanding such prior to being allowed to purchase and use said product.
A car, a meal, a drink?
Ranger222 said:
Why is drunk driving against the law? After all, its my choice to get behind the wheel while drunk, right??? I'm assuming the risk, right? It should be ok.
No, because you endanger others by hitting them head on and killing them, which wasn't their choice.
You may want to assume the risk of getting infected, and that's your choice, but by doing so you endanger others who don't have that choice.
Not sure why we continue to have these discussions. We are 18 months in.
Requiring obese from being twice the size they should be would be infinitely more effective, but it's not against the law. They have the right to be lard asses. But no, you can't villainize the population who's life choices are more responsible for their deaths than covid is. That would never fly in creating the current division within this country. You can't take away their rights. That would be mean.
Living a healthy lifestyle is too much to ask of people, even though it decreases the risk of death dramatically, as well as improves their overall health as it relates to other issues they'll have to fight against down the line. Nope, shoveling down an occasional salad instead of a double cheeseburger, or going for a walk instead of watching tv, or not drinking as much, is not nearly as effective politically. Especially in this country. People always take the easy route. And asking people to live healthier is never going to work. It's a lot easier to point fingers, create blame, and foster division.
This is nonsense and has been refuted multiple times in this forum. Read the refutations.
What if it was an experimental first of its kind, never been successfully made before car, meal or drink?Kearney McRaven said:
What others products would you buy and use with the understanding that the producer has zero liability or accountability for the safety of their product.
Zero consumer protection is offered, and you must consent to fully understanding such prior to being allowed to purchase and use said product.
A car, a meal, a drink?
You've totally misinterpreted the issue. It's not selfish and there's many people that are vaccinated that are against mandates and forced vaccinations
Unfortunately, you'll continue to until you drop the smug and arrogant attitude. That's not how you communicate to anybody if you want to change an opinion.
Unfortunately, you'll continue to until you drop the smug and arrogant attitude. That's not how you communicate to anybody if you want to change an opinion.
"Collective good" is arbitrary. Being pro liberty is for the greater good.
You don't own the definition of "greater good."
You don't own the definition of "greater good."
You ask an oddly timed question.
cone said:
like i said
the lack of institutional trust goes far beyond suspicions regarding product liability
Absolutely but that act is doing more damage than good and is the first place to start.
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